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AB_Summit

Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 23

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

 	  ProWash wrote: 	
		  



I am currently planning to use a Rotax 583 snowmobile engine on the 701.  

	




How do you attach the gearbox to the 583? Being a snowmobile engine it isn't machined and drilled and tapped to accept a gearbox. Interesting idea though, I like hearing ideas from others on a tight budget.

ProWash

Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 18

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

I sent the crankcase halves to Airscrew Performance in Glendale AZ and had them machined and tapped for the provision 8 gearbox.

_________________
R Craig
North Central Arkansas
N701LR CH701 SP ELB
30 HRS into Phase One testing
Do Not Archive

river1

Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 28

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Randy ; I think that if you are going to consider a 2 cicle engine you might as well make it light, the original empty weight with 582 was 460lb. I look at the build (haven't started yet) with pretty much the same thoughts .Look at my previous post , it looks like wen it comes to 2 cicle engines there's not too many people interested, or in building  it  light . I talked with Seb Heintz and said that I could buy the current version plans and he will supply a separate sheet with the changes needed to achieve a lower weight.

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

I have a better question, where can you find a snowmobile in Arkansas? 



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

do not archive

--

ProWash

Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 18

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Hello Mark,



The only snowmobile I know of in Arkansas is out behind my neighbors house.  It will be years before he finds out the engine is missing.

_________________
R Craig
North Central Arkansas
N701LR CH701 SP ELB
30 HRS into Phase One testing
Do Not Archive

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

I would highly encourage anybody to get their license first, and fly for

a couple years first before buying or starting a kit. The plane you desire

after you have some experience may be vastly different than what 

you think you want now.



A kit is a MAJOR commitment of time, you might regret it later. In fact

the difference between low wing and high wing in itself is something you

might find you have a preference change, from just having some time in

the saddle.



Regards,

Jeff

AB_Summit

Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 23

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  I would highly encourage anybody to get their license first, and fly for

a couple years first before buying or starting a kit. The plane you desire

after you have some experience may be vastly different than what 

you think you want now.



A kit is a MAJOR commitment of time, you might regret it later. In fact

the difference between low wing and high wing in itself is something you

might find you have a preference change, from just having some time in

the saddle.



Regards,

Jeff 	




Realistically I can't afford to fly if I have to pay $158/hr for dual instruction in a 152 and $110/hr to rent a 152 solo. Scratch building is a way that I'll be able to still be able to be involved in aviation in a way that fits my budget. When I'm done I can fly the 701 under a Canadian ultralight permit, which is much cheaper to get than a PPL. 



Regarding not knowing the type of flying I want to do or the type of plane I want, I'm pretty sure I have a good idea. I've got a wife and 3 kids, so unless I buy a Cherokee 6 or a Cessna 206 (which is totally beyond my budget) I'm not going to be doing any cross countries with the family.



My interests lie mostly in the outdoors, so here's the type of stuff I'd like to do with my airplane:



- go river flying to scope out a canoe route I've never been down before.

- explore a new snowmobiling area by air.

- go hunting or fishing, or just look for game.

- fly into the rough, high altitude strips on the edge of the mountains near where I live.

- just go out for a low and slow evening sight-seeing flight with one of my kids.



All of this stuff involves being able to see the ground well and none of it requires a fast airplane. I doubt my wife will even be interested in flying with me, so based on that I think a 701 with bubble doors will suit me just fine. There a lots of other airplanes that could do the job and probably be better at cross country stuff, but none that can be obtained as cheaply as a scratch built 701. If money was no object I'd just buy a Maule or a Cessna 180, but the cost of an overhaul alone for one of those planes would pay for my whole 701 project.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

AB,



If that is how you are going to use the plane the 701 is perfect for you. I do have one suggestion though. Get you wife at least somewhat excited about it. Your life will be better over the next 7 or 8 years.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

AB-

     REALITY CHECK!

     Not quite. Very few Zenith builders get out for less than $30K-$40K. 

You could buy a zero-time engine for that.

     The money is trivial, the time you spend building isn't. I don't want 

to think about what my HDS actually cost if I counted the hours I've spent 

on my project at the rate I get at work. However, I'm sure I still beat the 

cost of a new Cessna 162. Buying used is a different story.

     After a while, you'll find out. Money IS no object when you just want 

to get the damned thing in the air. You also have to factor in the 

satisfaction that you're part of one of less than 1% of the world population 

that homebuilds.

     My second project should go much smoother........

                                                                             

do not archive

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuse/Corvair

Townville, Pa

 If money was no object I'd just buy a Maule or a Cessna 180, but the cost 

of an overhaul alone for one of those planes would pay for my whole 701 

project.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136615#136615

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Bill you are 101% correct There's a point  where " You Want to Get The DAMM 

Thing Flying! In my case I'ts " Get The DAMM Thing Flying Again ! I'am  in 

to the tune of over 51 Large, and it don' t really matter any more! It's 

going to look the I want it to ,be power the way I want it with the type 

prop Iwant, and it goes on and on ,But who cares ! You "gota do something 

that makes you happy" This Is a learing experience for me,and I wouldn't 

have missed it for the world. Made alot of friends, met a lot very smart 

people and very few smart Asses,and learned a lot about airplanes, and a 

littlt more about people in general . I think building a kit,or rebuilding a 

kit. is a real Blast...

---

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

AB is scratch building, if he goes with the alternative engine route, he will be well bellow $30K. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida

http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com



Bill Naumuk <naumuk(at)alltel.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Naumuk" 



AB-

     REALITY CHECK!

     Not quite. Very few Zenith builders get out for less than $30K-$40K. 

You could buy a zero-time engine for that.

     The money is trivial, the time you spend building isn't. I don't want 

to think about what my HDS actually cost if I counted the hours I've spent 

on my project at the rate I get at work. However, I'm sure I still beat the 

cost of a new Cessna 162. Buying used is a different story.

     After a while, you'll find out. Money IS no object when you [quote][b]

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Thats a good thing, if he can make it  happen.  I would  thiink  it  would very basic and not,climb or fly that  fast IF he can bring it in at that price. Funny you should quote that number,  thats the price we were shooting at . As you move along things change, not to  forget mistakes etc. I'am not saying that it can't happen.i'am saying there's a  good chance it won't happen. Best of luck to  him                                                             Joe N101HD 601HD XL / RAM

 [quote]   ---

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Are you scratch building?



You sort of imply that cheaper will result in a low performing plane. I disagree. Cheaper is more the result of learning to do more things yourself and be willing to wait more time for your chance to fly, and less the result of cutting corners and ending up with a low performing plane. 



It is all about paying with time vs. paying with money.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida

http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com



Southern Reflections <purplemoon99(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:[quote]       Thats a good thing, if  he can make it  happen.  I would  thiink  it  would very basic and not,climb or fly that  fast IF he can bring it in at that price. Funny you should quote that number,  thats the price we were shooting at . As you move along things change, not to  forget mistakes etc. I'am not saying that it can't happen.i'am saying there's a  good chance it won't happen. Best of luck to  him                                                             Joe N101HD 601HD XL / RAM

 [quote]   ---

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,

here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative,

but it's the same advice I would give anybody.



Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost

me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving 

money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going to cost less

than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I

paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training

which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel

endorsement, mountain training, and commercial.



Homebuilt planes are great, but  there is not a day goes by that I don't

have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to

them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude

that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to

force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're 

doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself 

wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never

completed.



I say get a couple years in the saddle first.



Regards,

Jeff

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

How much would you estimate the airframe of a scratch 

built 601XL could cost, including extra material to cover for mistakes? 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://williamdominguez.myphotoalbum.com



n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself already. But just in case,

here's my perspective. Admittedly it might come across as negative,

but it's the same advice I would give anybody.



Ok, I've built two, and flown a lot as a rental pilot. Being a rental pilot cost

me a LOT less than being a kit owner. Don't kid yourself about saving 

money. There is not any Zenith Kit, or plans built that's going  to cost less

than $30K when you're done. That is a LOT of rental flying. In fact I

paid a substantial amount less than that for ALL of my flight training

which includes my private, instrument, complex endorsement, tailwheel

endorsement, mountain training, and commercial.



Homebuilt planes are great, but  there is not a day goes by that I don't

have some feelings about the amount of time, and money I commit to

them. In order to complete a plane, you will have to adopt the attitude

that no matter what else you want to do you, absolutely you have to

force time into your life to go out to the shop. After day 300 and you're 

doing some tedious task for 10,000th time you might find yourself 

wishing you were just done with it. Fully 50% of projects are never

completed.



I say get a couple years in the saddle first.



Regards,

Jeff





Read this topic online [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute

rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K. 



To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll 

be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice.



Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot 

flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not

smart. 



You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly

some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok

pilot on your own. Probably another 100 or so after that to where you 

are more than just a rank beginner.  That's just reality. I honestly

think a pilot isn't really solid until around 200-300 hours, and in some 

cases never.

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

I still don't see how you come up with $30K as rock bottom for the complete airplane. Thats why I was asking for how much you would guess for an airframe alone, without engine an instrumentation.



I'm scratch building and I have gone thru the numbers several times. Based on what I have spent so far, how much I already have and some budgeting projections, my airframe will realistically come about 7K. That is at current prices and includes realistic reserve for damaged parts and purchasing of some parts that I might not make. So, adding 12K for a Corvair conversion including FWF and 5K for instrumentation we are talking about 24K. 



Scott Laughlin posted some time ago, right when he was close to completing his project, how much he has spend in his project so far, and his numbers where way under my estimate.



Are you a scratch builder? I'm trying to see if I'm missing something very big money wise or if kit builders really tend overestimate the cost of  scratch building. I believe the answer is somewhere in between.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida





n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



I would hate to guess, but I think to get anything flyable, the absolute

rock bottom in dollars is probably $30K. 



To build something with any kind of panel, and a decent engine you'll 

be in the $50-60K range, at least if you want something nice.



Another thing to consider, is you do NOT want to be a low time pilot 

flying a homebuilt plane. I mean, obviously people do, but it is not

smart. 



You're going to spend 40-60 hours flight training just to be able to fly

some type of a trainer, then 40-60 more hours just becoming an ok

pilot on your own. Probably [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's 

nothing for me to win here. I'm just telling you the way it is. Go build

one, and come back in a few years and let me know what you 

spent.  



Regards,

Jeff

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

Don't misinterpret me, I'm not trying to get into a contest here. My project will take whatever it will take. I just want to understand where I have it wrong in my estimate if any. I believe you have better reason than the ones you have provide so far but you have not giving me these reasons and I would like to know them.  In other words, I want to know what is your basis to state that it wont come for less than 30K. If you don't mind, I want to know your reasons and not just "this is the way it is".



Feel free to answer me off list if you wish.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida



n85ae <n85ae(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "n85ae" 



Well, I don't gain anything by your not building a plane so there's 

nothing for me to win here. I'm [quote][b]

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Building as a way for a non-pilot to get into aviation?

My kids some times say, Dad you're so stupid, right after I tell them 

something, so I just say uh-huh. 



What you are missing, is the myriad of little things that make a plane.

Everything from little fasteners, to the cost of paint, etc, etc, etc. Since

you have NOT built one, and a bunch of people on this list have, my 

best advice is to consider that several of us are saying the same thing.



If I built another plane (third) based on your specs I'm guessing I would

have a minimal VFR airplane which cost me mid thirties to build, and 

4 years labor based on my available time to do these kinds of things.



I would build from a kit, because the $10K you will save making your 

own parts, isn't worth the number of hours you will spend doing it. I have

a friend building a Bearhawk from plans, who spent more than a year

forming parts for his wings ... When he was done, he was at the same

point a kit builder starts from on day 1.   



Best Regards,

Jeff

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