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czech floats

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usher

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Location: Boswell BC

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: czech floats

I have a model 111, 582, on Full Lotus floats.  Plane empty on wheels weighs 496 lbs, I weigh 150. Not really happy with Full  Lotus and have to have amphibs. Looking to buy Czech amphibs. Anybody with this  combination? and if so, how is water performance with two people.  Thanks.

 Don

   [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: czech floats

is there a particular reason that you dont like the full-lotus floats?  Are you by any chance using the skystar rigging?  I was not real happy with the full lotus on the KF using the original skystar rigging till I changed the step position and the angle of incidence on the wing.. now it is a fun machine that will go some amazing places.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: czech floats

What were your new figures on the step and the incidence??  



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

greg(at)case-assembly.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: czech floats

I did not see any responses to the question on the Czech  Floats.

  

 While we are on the Float topic (and by the way great  video!) lets chat about these Czech floats if anyone has an  opinion.

  

 gc



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don &  Dianne Usher

Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:40 AM

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: czech  floats

 

 I have a model 111, 582, on Full Lotus floats.  Plane empty on wheels weighs 496 lbs, I weigh 150. Not really happy with Full  Lotus and have to have amphibs. Looking to buy Czech amphibs. Anybody with this  combination? and if so, how is water performance with two people.  Thanks.

 Don

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
No virus found in this incoming message.  size=2>Version: 7.5.487 /   

  9/20/2007 12:07 PM

     [quote][b]

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: czech floats

I really have no information to add to the float debate since I have such 

limited knowledge of the diffrent brands and styles of floats.  My experience 

consists of about 10 hours in a supercub on EDO 2000's and have not landed mine 

in the water yet (maybe this weekend).  I'll keep the list posted as to the

performance of the Czech floats.

Kevin Cozik

Series 6

914 turbo



On Fri Sep 21 10:26 , 'Gregory Cronin' <greg(at)case-assembly.com> sent:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

I did not see any responses to the question on the Czech 

Floats.

 

While we are on the Float topic (and by the way great 

video!) lets chat about these Czech floats if anyone has an 

opinion.

 

gc



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don & 

Dianne Usher

Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:40 AM

To: 

kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: czech 

floats



I have a model 111, 582, on Full Lotus floats. 

Plane empty on wheels weighs 496 lbs, I weigh 150. Not really happy with Full 

Lotus and have to have amphibs. Looking to buy Czech amphibs. Anybody with this 

combination? and if so, how is water performance with two people. 

Thanks.

Don



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-

List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

size >Version: 7.5.487 / 





9/20/2007 12:07 PM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: czech floats

some Kitfox Videos here 

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kitfoxflyer

floats , skis and water. 



gotta be a few thousand Kitfoxes flying and only  22 vidoes from me plus a few others on you tube.

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

greg(at)case-assembly.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: czech floats

Is anyone here flying the Czech floats currently?

 

If so please let us all know what you think.



Thanks!

gc



1:53 PM

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: czech floats

Me too,

 I sold my aerocet amphibs to Dan Denny a few years ago and really want to

replace them next year. The Czech floats seem fairly strong, though not for

rough beaching. 



John Oakley

Fox 4 long and short

Cap - 912ul



--

kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: czech floats

Yes, I'm flying the 1650s with my first water landings yesterday.  I landed about 

9am yesterday morning in no wind and glassy conditions.  They felt great touching 

down and there was not much tendency to pitch forward considering the smooth water 

condition.  As I can off the step, the nose came up like normal and then settle in 

fairly flat......maybe a little too flat as some water made its way over the front 

of the float.  Idle taxing I could see water building up in front of the float which 

I blamed on the large front cavity where the nosewheel sits.   Just for kicks I 

wanted to see how long it would take to get on step before I turned around to depart 

but it could not climb up on step no matter what I tried.  Now I'm concerned about 

how the floats are sitting in the water (nearly flat).  To make a long story short, 

I ended up adding about 10 lbs to the rear compartment of each float to get off the 

water.  First try it was up on step almost instantly but the wind and water 

conditions had also changed to 10 mph.  Multiple takeoffs and landings with great 

results.  Fast off the water and very smooth on!  

   I'll try again in the next few days but I'm hoping I won't have to keep the extra 

weight in the floats and that the reason the water came over the top was more of an 

amphib problem than a rigging problem.

  Any thoughts?

Kevin Cozik

S6 Czech 1650s

914 turbo

Lansing Michigan 

 



On Mon Sep 24 11:46 , 'Gregory Cronin' <greg(at)case-assembly.com> sent:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Is anyone here flying the Czech floats currently?

 

If so please let us all know what you think.



Thanks!

gc



1:53 PM

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: czech floats

Greg,



I have 25 years of float flying experience, with a total of 2200 hrs in 

seaplanes.  1300 hours of that seaplane time has been in various light sport 

type aircraft.  I have a bit more than 30 hours in an amphibious Czech float 

equipped Rans S-7 with a Rotax 100 hp 912s for power.  Aircraft empty weight 

on wheels around 670 lbs, and right close to 900 on floats. The floats are 

the  4 wheel option 1150/1200a amphibs.



The floats work, but lack forward floatation, as well as total floatation 

for the Rans (note how low the spreader bars are to the water in the 

attached picture.  Also, the rear seat passenger weight is actually is 

helping keep the front of the floats up.  Otherwise the bows would be 

plowing water over the top when idling).  The landing gear has no 

suspension, and while the main gear does have a down lock, the nosegears are 

held down purely by hydraulic pressure, consequently causing concerns about 

gear collapse in the case of hydraulic failure, The hydraulic cyls also tend 

to leak when sitting with the weight of the airplane on them.  The other 

problem with the floats is that they are approx 15 1/2 ft in length, and 

that causes you not to be able to rotate well without dragging the heels 

(which will consequently also keep you from leaving the water). This a a 

common problem with many older float designs as well.  While a long float 

offers a nice ride and lots of good tracking and stability, they limit your 

ability to take off short because you can't rotate into a steep attitude. 

For those reasons I personally would always choose a short float over a long 

one if the floatation was similar. Oh yeah, a Rans S-7 is longer than my 

Kitfox IV by almost 5 ft, so the Kitfox would really suffer from not being 

able to rotate due to the float being so long for the airplane.  The Czech 

floats on this Rans also only have 2 watertight compartments / pump outs. 

That would never pass muster for a certified float, as it puts the airplane 

at risk of capsizing if ever one compartment were to leak and fill with 

water.  The good news there is that the later Czech floats are known for not 

leaking much water.  But if you ever hit an underwater obstruction and poke 

a hole in your float, you have little or no reserve buoyancy with 50% of one 

float only left watertight.



Another thing I don't like about the Czech floats is they are 

hydrodynamically very draggy.  Example, last time I flew this Rans I was 

doing a downwind takeoff in a 10 mph wind and no matter what I did I 

couldn't get enough forward water speed to lift off.  I tried everything, 

but finally stopped and turned into the wind and took off no problem.  That 

whole issue is caused by too much reveted skin area causing excess water 

drag and limiting the ability to accelerate on the step.  And being that I 

fly my Aerocet equipped Kitfox also, I guess I am spoiled as downwind 

takeoffs are never a problem, even though I have 20 hp less than the Rans, 

and less wing area.  The Aerocets having a smooth fluted bottom have let me 

acclerate easily for a takeoff at gross weight in a 25+ mph downwind before 

(ps - don't try this at home - I've been flying floats for a lot of years... 

Go into the wind like our flight instructors tell us to).  I also don't like 

the fact that there are no storage areas in the czech floats.



Ok, so what do I like about the Czech floats?  Ground handling is good, and 

brakes work pretty good or an amphib. Water rudders are sufficiently sized, 

and the floats will get you off the water relatively quick as they use a 

pretty flat bottom.  Of course, since nothing is ever free, rough water is 

not the Czech floats forte.



I currently am flying my Kitfox 912ul Model IV on Aerocet 1100 amphibs. It 

weighs 630 lbs on wheels and 776 on amphibs. Those floats too have a lot of 

issues, with underfloatation being the biggest problem, and a weak landing 

gear second.  But other than that it is hands down the best handling float 

you will ever fly (I can do a 600-800 foot circular one float takeoff! 

Yeah, they handle that good...)



Because I don't think we have a decent choice out there currently for an 

amphib float for our planes, I designed my own with all the features I 

wanted, and felt we need.  I am in final design stages and will be going 

into production soon (has been a MUCH bigger job than I ever expected.  Oh 

well, all good things take time they say...).  I expect to have floats 

available 1st qtr of 2008.  Pricing is targeted to compete with the Czech 

floats. And it will be an attractive float with a real landing gear and nice 

storage (read as "Not anything weird").   I will let the group know here as 

I progress with production.  The Kitfox is one of my favorite airplanes, so 

I hope to set up a Kitfox as one of the first airplanes on my new floats.



Paul Seehafer



ps - did those Avid amphibs not work out for your?

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john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: czech floats

Paul,

That is the greatest report on floats I have seen. I am thinking you need to

quit your job and write for a magazine.  Honestly that is what many of us

want to hear, One persons experience and feelings. I now believe you are

capable of making a great set of floats. I along with many others are

waiting for more info on your system. I learned from you about how many

compartments there need to be, also the storage area's is a must, I had

forgotten the aerocet had them. I actually put my kids in the floats with

their heads sticking out and dressed like elfs, me as santa.( they will

never forgive me)

Any picture of the floats you want to share.



Again, thanks

John Oakley

Fox 4 speedster long and short

912 ul



--

mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: czech floats

Paul,

   

  That was a very interesting piece you wrote about floats. All the more so as I am planning to fit my KF3 with Aerocet amphibs  this winter.  If you have any tips about using the Aerocets I would sure appreciate it.

   

  Thanks

   

  Mike Laundy

   

  KF3 582



john oakley <john(at)leptron.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john oakley" 



Paul,

That is the greatest report on floats I have seen. I am thinking you need to

quit your job and write for a magazine.  Honestly that is what many of us

want to hear, One persons experience and feelings. I now believe you are

capable of making a great set of floats. I along with many others are

waiting for more info on your  system. I learned from you about how many

compartments there need to be, also the storage area's is a must, I had

forgotten the aerocet had them. I actually put my kids in the floats with

their heads sticking out and dressed like elfs, me as santa.( they will

never forgive me)

Any picture of the floats you want to share.



Again, thanks

John Oakley

Fox 4 speedster long and short

912 ul



--

greg(at)case-assembly.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: czech floats

Your always the right guy to share your knowledge when it comes to floats.

Thanks for the information.

I did a lot of work on the avid floats.  Repainted them and powder

coated/anodized all the components.  But never did fit them to the plane

because I thought they may not be enough float.  I have plans to modify them

by adding another scallop to each side of the float but have not got to that

point.

I would be interested in any drawings you would be willing to share of your

new design.



Always good to hear from you.

greg 



--

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: Re: czech floats

I will be interested in Paul's floats as well when he gets them ready. 



I have Aerocet 1100s on 582 and they work well, like Paul says one of the best handling floats on the water but a bit under floated.  I could see them  be near not very good on a Subaru install.  582  ok but when dual with heavy load it takes more to get up on step  and a 582 is likely about 150 lbs less than a Sub on the nose ...  and the nose is where they seem  under-floated the most.  

That being said they are very aerodynamic and your speed loss will be far less than some real draggy floats like Full lotus. 



I think the Aerocet 1100 was set at 1100 displacement per float Before the Amphibs were installed and hence loss some capability. 



Landing gear is ok but if you operate off non smooth runways like i do with thousands of takeoffs and landings your gear in time will fail . Seaplane ramps can take there toll as well. 



I have about 20 + videos up with float  ones too  www.cfisher.com   and look for link .

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: czech floats

Hey gang,



I want to briefly reply to all of your comments about floats, but am on a 

time crunch getting ready for a week plus float plane trip to northwest 

ontario in a Beech 18 with two of my buddies.  But when I return, I would be 

happy to respond to any of the float questions Noel, Michael, and Joe have 

asked me to explain further.  So remind me in about a week and a half.



Briefly;



John;  Thanks for the compliment about what I wrote. Fwiw I do write 

articles for magazines - check out EAA's August 2006 Sport Pilot for an 

article I wrote on LSA seaplanes and converting one to floats.



Noel;  Yes, there are a lot of times a downwind takeoff and landing are 

needed or at least preferred.  I can explain further later.



Michael;  I'd be happy to give you some good tips on the aerocet float 

install on your airplane.   I think I've learned a lot about what to do and 

not do with these floats.  Would love to see you be able to successfully 

operate yours.  Plus, I can put you in contact with others who have info to 

share on the aerocet 1100 as well.  We've developed a good communications 

amongst a small group of us aerocet 1100 float flyers, and sharing info 

between us has proven extremely valuable.



Greg and everybody else;  I will be happy to explain more about my new 

floats to you when I return.  To make a long story short, they will be a 

float specifically designed for airplanes like we (me included) like to fly. 

So having flown Avids and Kitfoxes (as well as other G.A. aircraft) since 

the mid 80's on floats, I know what we need, and what we don't need.  And as 

I said before, as far as I'm concerned we currently have no good choices out 

there (sorry, just my opinion..).  But my float will change that.  It has 

been in development for over a year now, but I'm not just eyeball 

engineering things here.  I sought out true experts to help me.  Running 

EAA's AirVenture Seaplane Base, and being around the seaplane crowd for a 

quarter century has provided me with many contacts that have an incredible 

amount of float operating and building experience, and they were willing to 

share their knowledge because we're friends.  Combining that expert help 

along with my seaplane flying background, and my frustration over not having 

a good float choice, I'm convinced will provide guys like us with a 

marvelous amphib float.  Oh yeah, and I promised myself I'd do all I can to 

make it reasonably priced.  I remember not too long ago when I had to scrimp 

and save to buy my first set of inexpensive floats.  So I want to make sure 

my float is a real value, and is as affordable as I can make it without 

sacrificing quality.  Hopefully this will help you all to understand better 

where I'm coming from, and why I'm passionate about producing a great float 

for our airplanes.  (see the pic attached if you want an approximate idea 

what my new floats will look like.  Will be very similar to that... but 

better!)



Talk to you all in about a week and a half!

Paul Seehafer

Kitfox IV 912ul amphib

Central Wisconsin



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