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avex rivet question clarification

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rwripper(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

Thanks for the rivet puller side (the formed head)  criteria Ralph.

  

 My real concern was regarding the  backside/otherside acceptance criteria  of the pulled rivet.   

  

 Thanks, Dick

    [quote][b]

DaveG601XL

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Cincinnati, Oh

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Re: avex rivet question clarification

Dick,



Chris Heintz's Construction Standards manual as well as the Avex spec do not specify a shop head dimensional requirement.  They only publish a grip range spec.  If the actual grip falls into this range, I guess it is assumed that the shop head dimensions are good.  FYI grip range for the A4 rivet = 0-1/4" and A5 = 0-5/16"



Good luck,

_________________
David Gallagher
Cincinnati, OH area

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: avex rivet question clarification

I've pulled hundreds if not thousands of rivets on my plane and I can't think of one that has failed that there wasn't a problem on the finished side of the rivet.



So I'm pretty sure that if the shiny side is OK the ship side will be as long as you are using the proper rivets.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

In so far as the grip length of pop rivets has came up again  I will add my two cents. Check the way rivet grip length are given in all  manuals. For a button heador dome head rivet the grip length is from  the BOTTOM of the head. Now on a countersunk rivet the grip length is from  the TOP of the head. David and all others that I have seen on this site list  Avex's grip length for the countersunk rivets. Zenith has chose to take a  countersunk rivet and form the into a button head but does not change the grip  lenth. Has anyone who is in the know taken a countersunk rivet and installed it  through a max. grip material and checked the formed end? Will the rivet be  formed OK?  Jerry of GA 



Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

>  David and all others that I  have seen on this site list Avex's grip length for the countersunk rivets. 

  

 In their  construction standards (page 10) Zenith lists grip lengths of 0-1/4 inch (0-6mm)  for the A4 and 0-5/16 inch (0-8mm) for the A5. Are they allowing for the  difference? Do their numbers differ from the Avex docs?

  

 www.zenithair.com/pdf-doc/zenair%20construction%20standards%20draft%201-07.pdf 

  

 --  Craig

  

   [quote][b]

jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

The grip length on Zenithair and Avex are the same so there is no allowance for the difference. Jerry-GA

 

 

 --

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

To Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,



The grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be

buried in enough material to never vibrate out.



No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be the

same. The nub merely pulls through the rivet until it bottoms out and

breaks. If you use the right size, or too long, the dimension is still the

same. Obviously this is unlike a driven rivet that will flatten and spread

out.



You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed out,

you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to obey

ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section 



From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:56 AM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification



In so far as the grip length of pop rivets has came up again I will add my

two cents. Check the way rivet grip length are given in all manuals. For a

button heador dome head rivet the grip length is from the BOTTOM of the

head. Now on a countersunk rivet the grip length is from the TOP of the

head. David and all others that I have seen on this site list Avex's grip

length for the countersunk rivets. Zenith has chose to take a countersunk

rivet and form the into a button head but does not change the grip lenth.

Has anyone who is in the know taken a countersunk rivet and installed it

through a max. grip material and checked the formed end? Will the rivet be

formed OK?  Jerry of GA 



Make AOL Your Homepage.

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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

In a message dated 9/28/2007 1:25:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  To    Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,



The    grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be

buried    in enough material to never vibrate out. 	


 

 I think this is the question, how do you inspect  this requirement? 

  

 You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed  out,

you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to  obey

ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.

  

 No correction for this head change has been make with  regard to the grip length! What about the fact the ZAC and Avex give the same  max. grip length even though they reduced the grip length by the thickness of  the rivet head?

  

 No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be  the

same. 

  

 I understand the inside dimension does not change. The  length of the rivet also does not change so if you form the head down (Dome the  head) the length of the rivet grip length is reduced and Avex set the max. grip  based on the rivet being used as a countersunk rivet. Thus the "nubbed" end is  not buried. Take a .250 thickness section of material and install a 1/8 rivet.  Look at the "nubbed", think it

  will not vibrate out?

  

 You had an attached file on your e-mail that I could  not open, what was it?

  

 Jerry of GA



See what's new at Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

Jerry,  

   

I did not attach anything. I merely hit “REPLY.”  

   

My opinion is that you are over thinking this. You seem to be concerned about losing .025 from the change from a countersink to the modified head; when the rivets are measured in fractions of an inch. Here is a quote from Mr. Heintz:   

   

“…One other very determinant factor for selecting the Avex rivets is that they are "grip" insensitive. The standard Avex rivets will join from grip 0 to grip 1/4" (6 mm) with the same rivet…”    

   

Why would you try to use an 1/8” rivet if you were concerned about its length? Let common sense prevail…  

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section       

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:41 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification  

  

       

In a message dated 9/28/2007 1:25:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

To Whoever was Concerned About the Inside Dimension of an Avex Rivet,

 

 The grip length is only important in that the 'nubbed' end needs to be

 buried in enough material to never vibrate out.  	
  

    

[b]I think this is the question, how do you inspect this requirement? [/b]  

    

   

    

You do not need to worry about the bottom end. As someone else pointed out,

 you are making a major change to the head of the rivet, and you need to obey

 ZAC's dimensions on modifying the head.  

    

   

    

[b]No correction for this head change has been make with regard to the grip length! What about the fact the ZAC and Avex give the same max. grip length even though they reduced the grip length by the thickness of the rivet head?[/b]  

    

   

    

No matter how long the pop rivet is, the inside dimension will always be the

 same.   

    

   

    

[b]I understand the inside dimension does not change. The length of the rivet also does not change so if you form the head down (Dome the head) the length of the rivet grip length is reduced and Avex set the max. grip based on the rivet being used as a countersunk rivet. Thus the "nubbed" end is not buried. Take a .250 thickness section of material and install a 1/8 rivet. Look at the "nubbed", think it[/b]  

    

[b] will not vibrate out?[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]You had an attached file on your e-mail that I could not open, what was it?[/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Jerry of GA[/b]  

  



 

         

  

See what's new at Make AOL Your Homepage.  

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       [quote][b]

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

Gary, Using the 1/8 rivet was just to get you to look as one. As you are  building an 601HDS your center section should be the same as my Dwg. 6-V3 dated  08/04. Look at your two rivets in the outer ribs where the drawing call for A-5  rivets. Material thickness is: 6V5-1 (.025),   "L" angle  (.025),   6V4-1HD (.040),   6V4-5 (.125),  6V4-6HD  (.125)  Total= .340. We I installed these rivets I question the rivet so  took a sample using these mat'l thickness to the EAA meeting and two  difference members said it was not good.    Jerry



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  [quote][b]

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

Jerry,  

   

Point taken, however it looks as there are some differences in our plans. For me, 6-V3 is a wing drawing. But I have supplementals for the HDS which replace that A5 rivet with an AN3 bolt. On the center section, I also have a supplemental as I am building a tail dragger. All nose ribs have a notch for the spar cap and are not riveted at that location.  

   

However, you did shine light on the fact that where the gear support crosses the spar, there will definitely be a need for a longer rivet. 4 of these will be needed by me, so I will merely buy some ‘x-tra longs.’   

   

Interesting that AC43.13 has no verbage concerning Avex rivets.   

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section       

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeyoung65(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:37 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: avex rivet question clarification  

  

     

Gary, Using the 1/8 rivet was just to get you to look as one. As you are building an 601HDS your center section should be the same as my Dwg. 6-V3 dated 08/04. Look at your two rivets in the outer ribs where the drawing call for A-5 rivets. Material thickness is: 6V5-1 (.025),   "L" angle (.025),   6V4-1HD (.040),   6V4-5 (.125),  6V4-6HD (.125)  Total= .340. We I installed these rivets I question the rivet so took a sample using these mat'l thickness to the EAA meeting and two difference members said it was not good.   Jerry  

  



 

         

  

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Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: avex rivet question clarification

In a message dated 9/29/2007 11:25:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  gboothe5(at)comcast.net writes:

  

 Gary, I used CherryMax rivets and  did not try to "done" the head.

  I have found no one who has  much on the pop rivet inspection.  Have fun building. Jerry   



 

  



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