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bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

This is a crass commercial announcement.  Sorry, but we are as serious as a

heart attack in getting the word out.  Please read the letter below and

either delete it or act on it.  



Dear Potential Member



This letter is to update all interested prospected members regarding

progress we have made in making Aircraft Mutual Benefit group a reality.

Initially we were hoping to provide aircraft hull coverage and builder's

risk. We have discovered that we could provide a better package to the RV

builder that also includes liability coverage.  Sort of a one stop shop for

your insurance needs.



In June we had a meeting with the broker to discuss the possibilities to

offer an alternative insurance product to RV builders and flyers. We were

advised that the concept was good and the next step would be to have an

actuarial study and an independent audit to verify that the program would be

a financial success to the members of the group. This information from these

studies would be used to assess the feasibility of the program. This in turn

would be presented to different underwriter insurers to purchase the master

insurance coverage above the group deductible to make the program function.

We will be seeking quotes from several insurers to obtain the best cost for

the group. Once an agreeable quote is provided, the cost of premiums will be

established to fund the insurance. This will allow us to provide a fixed

cost for annual premiums for each member.



The group will be a captive program essentially insuring itself up to a

certain amount. This amount will be established by the financial audit and

the actuaries.  If that amount is exceeded then the excess insurance will

trigger and provide coverage.



The estimated costs to complete the actuarial study, financial audit and

feasibility study are estimated at $30,000.00 to $45,000.00. 



How the program will work.



1.	Each member will have a membership fee to belong to the program.

This feel will be $2000.00 and will be a one time membership fee to

establish your personal membership account.  All members will start with a

$2000.00 account.  As profits are realized in this business a portion of

those profits will go into your member account proportional to the balance

in the account.  (A similar process as what happens in your USAA insurance

account, if you are insured by USAA.)

2.	As capital exceeds that required by the company for reserves and

normal customary business expenses a return on premium will be sent to the

member on the anniversary of their membership. This premium rebate will be

in addition to the 25% reduction that they receive by being in the group.  

3.	If the member no longer is flying a RV and wants to withdraw from

Aircraft Mutual Benefit they will receive the balance on their membership

account as a final settlement and the membership shall be terminated at that

time.  If conditions change and they want to return membership they shall

again have to open their membership account with the preliminary deposit.

This balance is subject to annual losses from operations.



At this time we would like to start collecting a portion of the membership

fee in the amount of $150.00 per member to fund the various studies that are

needed to go forth. This money would be credited towards the initial

membership fee but will not committed until we have contracted for the audit

and feasibility studies. 



By asking for a percentage of the membership fee we are able to get an

indication of the willingness of the RV population at large to participate

in such a program.  We will return all the money in the event we do not

reach the $30,000.00  to $45,000.00 required to complete the studies.  If we

do receive the necessary interest and funds then we will consider that as a

down payment on the membership account.  



We look forward to your response and participation to become a member of

this group. Considering the safety record of RV aircraft we can start

insuring ourselves and paying for ourselves not the entire general aviation

market.  

 Bob Kaufmann					Rick Sked

Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.			Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.

bob(at)AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM 				rick(at)AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM 

RV-10 20B Rotary Engine,			RV-10 IO-540, almost ready

to slip the 

Working on the intake and exhaust		surly bounds of earth.



PS.  We are asking that the checks be sent to Aircraft Mutual at 1930

Village Center Circle, Suite 3-833, Las Vegas, NV 89134.  If you are going

to LOE then I will be around Russ Daves RV-10 but will be wearing an

Aircraft Mutual Polo and Hat. I would welcome questions and potential

deposits there also.  We are expecting that all will be in place and

finished by the first of the year and the RV community can begin to self

cover itself at that time.

drfred(at)suddenlinkmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Questions:



1.  How does the risk pool of RV flyer's compare to the "average risk 

pool"  of single engine fixed gear planes?  What are the numbers?



2. Can you project at this time how much liability and hull coverage 

would be for the RV 10 at say, 150 -175 k value?



3. Would others who are now flying then share their costs with the group? 



4. How would this effect cavemen??



Fred Williams

40515

Trying not to write anything untrue or stupid for the rest of the month. 

bob.kaufmann wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This is a crass commercial announcement.  Sorry, but we are as serious as a

 heart attack in getting the word out.  Please read the letter below and

 either delete it or act on it.  



 Dear Potential Member



 This letter is to update all interested prospected members regarding

 progress we have made in making Aircraft Mutual Benefit group a reality.

 Initially we were hoping to provide aircraft hull coverage and builder's

 risk. We have discovered that we could provide a better package to the RV

 builder that also includes liability coverage.  Sort of a one stop shop for

 your insurance needs.



 In June we had a meeting with the broker to discuss the possibilities to

 offer an alternative insurance product to RV builders and flyers. We were

 advised that the concept was good and the next step would be to have an

 actuarial study and an independent audit to verify that the program would be

 a financial success to the members of the group. This information from these

 studies would be used to assess the feasibility of the program. This in turn

 would be presented to different underwriter insurers to purchase the master

 insurance coverage above the group deductible to make the program function.

 We will be seeking quotes from several insurers to obtain the best cost for

 the group. Once an agreeable quote is provided, the cost of premiums will be

 established to fund the insurance. This will allow us to provide a fixed

 cost for annual premiums for each member.



 The group will be a captive program essentially insuring itself up to a

 certain amount. This amount will be established by the financial audit and

 the actuaries.  If that amount is exceeded then the excess insurance will

 trigger and provide coverage.



 The estimated costs to complete the actuarial study, financial audit and

 feasibility study are estimated at $30,000.00 to $45,000.00. 



 How the program will work.



 1.	Each member will have a membership fee to belong to the program.

 This feel will be $2000.00 and will be a one time membership fee to

 establish your personal membership account.  All members will start with a

 $2000.00 account.  As profits are realized in this business a portion of

 those profits will go into your member account proportional to the balance

 in the account.  (A similar process as what happens in your USAA insurance

 account, if you are insured by USAA.)

 2.	As capital exceeds that required by the company for reserves and

 normal customary business expenses a return on premium will be sent to the

 member on the anniversary of their membership. This premium rebate will be

 in addition to the 25% reduction that they receive by being in the group.  

 3.	If the member no longer is flying a RV and wants to withdraw from

 Aircraft Mutual Benefit they will receive the balance on their membership

 account as a final settlement and the membership shall be terminated at that

 time.  If conditions change and they want to return membership they shall

 again have to open their membership account with the preliminary deposit.

 This balance is subject to annual losses from operations.



 At this time we would like to start collecting a portion of the membership

 fee in the amount of $150.00 per member to fund the various studies that are

 needed to go forth. This money would be credited towards the initial

 membership fee but will not committed until we have contracted for the audit

 and feasibility studies. 



 By asking for a percentage of the membership fee we are able to get an

 indication of the willingness of the RV population at large to participate

 in such a program.  We will return all the money in the event we do not

 reach the $30,000.00  to $45,000.00 required to complete the studies.  If we

 do receive the necessary interest and funds then we will consider that as a

 down payment on the membership account.  



 We look forward to your response and participation to become a member of

 this group. Considering the safety record of RV aircraft we can start

 insuring ourselves and paying for ourselves not the entire general aviation

 market.  

  Bob Kaufmann					Rick Sked

 Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.			Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co.

 bob(at)AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM 				rick(at)AIRCRAFTMUTUAL.COM 

 RV-10 20B Rotary Engine,			RV-10 IO-540, almost ready

 to slip the 

 Working on the intake and exhaust		surly bounds of earth.



 PS.  We are asking that the checks be sent to Aircraft Mutual at 1930

 Village Center Circle, Suite 3-833, Las Vegas, NV 89134.  If you are going

 to LOE then I will be around Russ Daves RV-10 but will be wearing an

 Aircraft Mutual Polo and Hat. I would welcome questions and potential

 deposits there also.  We are expecting that all will be in place and

 finished by the first of the year and the RV community can begin to self

 cover itself at that time.

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

I think this letter is a prime example of what should NOT be on the RV-10

List.

Albert Gardner

Yuma, AZ



--

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

It was a clear opportunity for a rate reduction for all builders of

RV-10s (oh yeh... all RVs - that seems to be "on subject".



To each their own Albert.  However, my questions were... are we going to

pay the rate increases found with Harmon Rocket technology, Professional

hired guns and third parties purchasers like the incident in California

two weeks ago.



I read clearly that YES, the pool is wide and deep to help lower costs

and will not discriminate. I regularly attend HPAT training at

significantly more cost to me so I can be in a "selective pool" that

excludes and refines the gene pool.



I have worked for thirty years to avoid claims and incidents with no

desire to assist third party purchasers of what should have been OBAM

aircraft and were operated by someone other than the builder.

Builders Yes/ Purchasers NO!.



Still, Bob and Rick are to be commended for the effort, now is the time

to validate their premise regardless of us doubters.



John Cox

Aircraft Insurance investor



Do not Archive



--

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Al, I respectfully disagree. I have not made up my mind on this, but  

I believe the RV-10 list is the right venue for Bob and Rick to reach  

us all.

John Ackerman

40458 finishing kit



On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:14 PM, Albert Gardner wrote:



[quote] 

 <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>



 I think this letter is a prime example of what should NOT be on the  

 RV-10

 List.

 Albert Gardner

 Yuma, AZ



 --

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

I think this is a good idea, from my experience in the insurance industry, These are commonly referred to as 'groups' Where there is a large enough group of similarly motivated people that essentially self insure all but the most catastrophic losses from a shared pool of resources. Think of it as a cooperative for buying/purchasing insurance. Why send excess profits to the insurance carriers or agents?

The key to success of this and other groups is the behavior of the participants. So long as everyone acts with a similar/shared interest it works. When someone tried to 'take advantage' of the 'pool' it falls apart. Insurance rates are often higher than they could be because of claims that are frequently brought which are nuisance or borderline fradulant.

---- John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net> wrote: 

[quote] 

 Al, I respectfully disagree. I have not made up my mind on this, but  

 I believe the RV-10 list is the right venue for Bob and Rick to reach  

 us all.

 John Ackerman

 40458 finishing kit

 On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:14 PM, Albert Gardner wrote:

 > 

 > <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>

 >

 > I think this letter is a prime example of what should NOT be on the  

 > RV-10

 > List.

 > Albert Gardner

 > Yuma, AZ

 >

 > --

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

I think this is a good idea, from my experience in the insurance industry, These are commonly referred to as 'groups' Where there is a large enough group of similarly motivated people that essentially self insure all but the most catastrophic losses from a shared pool of resources. Think of it as a cooperative for buying/purchasing insurance. Why send excess profits to the insurance carriers or agents?

The key to success of this and other groups is the behavior of the participants. So long as everyone acts with a similar/shared interest it works. When someone tried to 'take advantage' of the 'pool' it falls apart. Insurance rates are often higher than they could be because of claims that are frequently brought which are nuisance or borderline fradulant.

---- John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net> wrote: 

[quote] 

 Al, I respectfully disagree. I have not made up my mind on this, but  

 I believe the RV-10 list is the right venue for Bob and Rick to reach  

 us all.

 John Ackerman

 40458 finishing kit

 On Sep 26, 2007, at 5:14 PM, Albert Gardner wrote:

 > 

 > <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com>

 >

 > I think this letter is a prime example of what should NOT be on the  

 > RV-10

 > List.

 > Albert Gardner

 > Yuma, AZ

 >

 > --

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

I would disagree, this has relevance to any RV builder as it is

insurance for us RV types, we are a large market and should be treated

as a separate entity and not have to pay for the mistakes of the Lancair

buyer/ builders. 

Do you think the aftermarket door latches should be on here? Do you

think the aftermarket door guides should be on here? These particular

items were found to be lacking and an enterprising builder took up the

slack and made parts. Same can be said for the insurance side, the rates

were found lacking, so a fellow RV builder has taken up the slack and is

trying to provide a service for us. No difference, just the end product

is a service instead of produced part.



In my not so humble opinion I think this has direct relevance to us and

our overall operating costs because frankly I am getting tired of paying

close to $400 a month just in case and I know there has to be an

alternative and applaud Rick and Bob for doing the due diligence to get

us a better product.

Dan Lloyd

N289DT RV10E Flying and "paying way too much for insurance"   



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Speaking of profits and insurance companies...think Geico, if they were

so much cheaper, how are they able to afford a Nascar Team, an Indy car

team, and an Offshore racing boat team. Each of these cost north of $20

million a year to run and that money is all coming directly from the

policy holders.

Insurance is a scam, right up until you have a legitimate claim that

they will try to deny for every reason possible until you threaten to

sue them for breach of contract.

Dan 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Dan.... "close to $400 a month" ???  I thought you said the Subie

gave no price premium.  I'm a bit UNDER $300/mo.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I would disagree, this has relevance to any RV builder as it is

 insurance for us RV types, we are a large market and should be treated

 as a separate entity and not have to pay for the mistakes of the Lancair

 buyer/ builders. 

 Do you think the aftermarket door latches should be on here? Do you

 think the aftermarket door guides should be on here? These particular

 items were found to be lacking and an enterprising builder took up the

 slack and made parts. Same can be said for the insurance side, the rates

 were found lacking, so a fellow RV builder has taken up the slack and is

 trying to provide a service for us. No difference, just the end product

 is a service instead of produced part.

 

 In my not so humble opinion I think this has direct relevance to us and

 our overall operating costs because frankly I am getting tired of paying

 close to $400 a month just in case and I know there has to be an

 alternative and applaud Rick and Bob for doing the due diligence to get

 us a better product.

 Dan Lloyd

 N289DT RV10E Flying and "paying way too much for insurance"   

 

 --

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Funny thing, Geico was probably the most painless claim I ever have had.  I had the claim filed before the cop even showed up at the scene and they never once argued the repair costs nor did they raise my insurance (guess I was "due" for an accident).



Do not archive



--

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

It appears that some folks thought I was negative on the subject of posting

info about Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co. Nothing could be further from the

truth. It appears I was misquoted, that I misspoke, was taken out of

context, misunderstood, and besides, I know that you think that you

understood what I said but you fail to realize that what I said was not what

I meant.

Albert (about face) Gardner

Yuma, AZ



--

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

$3800 per year is average for what all of the 10 builders are seeing

with under 200 hours total and no IFR rating. Remember you have some

more hours and a rating I do not have.

There is NO premium based on engine, the insurance companies are not

even asking that question anymore. So I should have done better math and

dived it out by 12 instead of 10, so it is $316 per month my bad.

Dyslexic in math

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

That is how they keep costs lower, by pre-paying it with an adjustor on

site, but what often happens is that the adjustor is low and it is very

difficult to get additional monies based on the claim because they

already have settled it in their mind.

 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Leave it to you to point out how math challenged I am....the over $400

figure includes hanger rent and that is what stuck out in my mind. It is

$316 for Insurance and $125 for hanger fee's so around $450 total for

the plane to sit.

Sorry for the confusion!

Dan 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Ah, that explains it. Yeah, that's more like "A little over $300/mo",

than "close to $400/mo".  I can see how it's easy to bundle the

costs though.



FYI, my estimation of the average hourly operational cost for

my personal RV-10 is $120/hr, based on about 100 hours a year

of flying.  Fly less and the price goes up, fly more and the

price goes down. Part of this is due to my hangar fees totaling

$425/YEAR, so for many builders this will be on the low side.



So $12,000 year as a baseline at 100 hours...that's just one of

those numbers some people don't want the wife to know.  Luckily

mine is just happy to have the plane. I think I she dumped me,

she'd try for the kids, the house, AND the plane....so I'm

gonna stay nice to that woman.



Tim



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Leave it to you to point out how math challenged I am....the over $400

 figure includes hanger rent and that is what stuck out in my mind. It is

 $316 for Insurance and $125 for hanger fee's so around $450 total for

 the plane to sit.

 Sorry for the confusion!

 Dan 

 

 --

Jon Reining

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

I work with a number of captive insurance companies and have talked to Rick on this and he's done a great job of thinking it through.  Looking at Van’s Hobbs meter, there are now 102 flying RV10’s and a total of 5,360 flying RV’s.  I’m not real sure what premiums are for the other models, but if they’re even half of an RV10, that’s at least $10 million in annual premium (5,360 RVs x $2,000 pure guesstimate of premium).  If Rick and Bob can organize some fraction of this, that’s a good amount of purchasing power.



In full disclosure, I work at an asset management firm with a specialization in managing assets for captive insurance companies.  If Aircraft Mutual is successful, we would welcome the opportunity to work with them.  I’m sure we all have our days jobs (except for those lucky guys who have retired), I just never thought work and building an RV10 might intersect.



Jon (working) and Bill (retired) Reining

40514 – wings



do not archive

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

No problem Al,



Emails always seem to be taken in different ways depending on the readers mood. We just want to get the word out as far as possible. I had to pull back the regins on Bob after your post for the same reasons, I asked him to wait to respond and see what the RV-10 group response would be. For once I can say I was right on. Thanks for the support of this program, if you not interested that's cool, if you are and want to take a small risk to find out then lets make this work. FWIW we are not cashing any checks until we have enough of them to pay forward with the study. If we don't get enough, then we will mail them back to everyone who came onboard, lick our wounds and join the masses paying for higher than our share for insurance premiums.



Lastly this is NOT the sale of insurance, it is strictly a deposit on a membership fee to join the group. WE ARE NOT YET IN THE INSURANCE BIZ. Disclaimer for all the attorneys that may be licking their chops to go after an insurance company. I am licensed to sell insurance in the state of Nevada so at least I am legally able to discuss the program, just not sell it....YET!!!



Rick Sked

40185

Father of Aircraft Mutual

---

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Yeah, Trish would definitely take the plane and trying to find another

wife that is willing to lay on a cold concrete floor and shoot rivets in

December would be difficult. We did the cost run based on if the plane

sat, and then every hour we run it is a bonus because it gets better gas

mileage than our Expedition! I know twisted thinking but it is how we

justify our toys!

Dan 



--

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: Aircraft Mutual Benefit Co

Rick or Bob,



Can you provide the text on your website in a downloadable format such as a

PDF file?  I cannot figure out how to copy the flash text for easy printing.



Also a few questions...



1) Does one have to have a completed airplane to buy in or obtain coverage

through Aircraft Mutual?



2) How much is required right now up front and how much of that is

refundable if things don't fly (pun intended)?



3) Is this limited to RV's?



3) What are the expected operating expenses of the company and how many

people will be on the payroll?



4) Is it only possible to obtain coverage if you have your GPS antenna

mounted in a RV-10 matronics list approved location (which from my best

recollection is at home atop your standard 6 story ham radio antenna pole

under 1/8 inch thick fiberglass housing)?



Forgive me if these were covered already as I usually have to read

everything at least 3 times before things sink in and that's open for

debate.  We won't talk about this in reference to the RV-10 plans either as

3 times is just getting started!

 

Ben Westfall

#40579 - (I'm lying to myself to take comfort by saying I'm half way)

PDX

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