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davedeford(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

We are just about ready for paint on our motorglider wings, and we have a

few questions for other motorglider operators.



1. What are the expected stall speeds with the long wings, what are Vno and

Va, and what is the limiting speed for airbrake extension (if any)? 



2. How have people marked their airspeed indicators to show values for both

short wings and long wings?  Two concentric sets of arcs?



3. What are the C.G. limits with long wins?



4. Any hints for convincing the FAA to grant registration in two categories

(ASEL and self-launch glider), depending on which wings are installed?  We

have been flying with the short wings for 6 years, so a change from the

existing category and operating limitations will be required.



5. Keeping potential controversy for last, how does Vne vary with altitude?

(The Diamond Extreme in which Terry and I recently got our self-launch

glider ratings has a placard which derates Vne from the marked value at 6500

feet by exactly the same ratios as shown in the table for the Pipistrel

Sinus, referenced in the article recently posted by Richard Pottorff.)



Thanks.



Dave DeFord

N135TD

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Dave,

 As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and have  talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings.   

  

 It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads on  how to fill out the forms.

 Notes:  

 Register the aircraft as an airplane!  Not a motorglider.

 Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your fly-off  with both wings.

     They are in a nutshell:  Fly with short wings  the 40 hours (Clear your Stage 1).   Then fly an additional 5-10  hours depending on your DAR to establish the characteristics with the long wings  (when adding glider wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on  where to fly are considered and may be re-imposed).  

  

 You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot  rating.

 I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa  dual wing and pilot registration problems.  If your DAR has a problem,  he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior  trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.

  

 I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and  print.  All the numbers are there.

  

 I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening  for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just  as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS.  Once deployed  they are smooth.  As a result of being harder to deploy above that  speed and personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and  the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to near  normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are mainly used in  the pattern rather than high speed descent.  The motor glider is  deceptively fast.  When built light and at low altitude (1500 feet) and 75%  power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS.  One updraft and a  little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat.

  

 As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings.  This presents  a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of  speeds.  Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so  equipped.

  

 In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,  the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings.  Yes,  you must do another weight and balance.  Typical weight increase is 100  pounds.  (It was more of a reason to diet.)

  

 CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where full  aft stick limit is achieved.  CG limits are the same for both wings and the  aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about 60 inches  empty.  I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due to forward CG  on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).

  

 I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.

  

 My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot (the  guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or problems  with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems) and as such have  some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their design limits of airspeed  and G to assure proper operational safety.  I am also an Aeronautical  Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer.  So here is my rant edited for  children and sensitive adults:

  

  Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as  they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.

  

 Vne 129 KIAS

 Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)  

 No idea what is maneuvering above 1370.  You must pull max G and  achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine  Vmanuever.  

 RE G limit

 You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to wing/airframe  stress.

 I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for  someone.  Hope the cut and paste is readable.

                           

       STRUCTURAL LIMIT:        

     +3.8g / -1.9g at        1370lbs.                         +3.5g / -1.5g at        

       1450 lbs.

                         +3.3g/-1.3 at 

       1550 lbs.

        

        



 The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370.  You should drop  your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to for  verification.  

  

 Added Note:  The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds.  It will  get your attention.  The monowheel squats even more.  Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away with  it.  I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.   Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, that  doesn't mean yours will do the same.  Every builder has different standards  and conditions on building his aircraft.  That's why production aircraft  have quality control procedures but, we kit builders in the US are not blessed  or affected by them, only our personal QC.

  



  

 The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this  printing.  The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the PFA  getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and adjustments made years  ago.  John and Roger at the factory are pushing them as hard as they  can.

  

 As for Vne.  It is the value determined by the engineers and test  pilots together.

 It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of  the new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is  really a mach limit).  

  

 Added Note:  Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is  altitude dependent.  Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 480  KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots.  See the note on  your E6B computer and test it yourself.  Wing design (camber and sweep)  determine Mach crit.  The aircraft shape and planform determine the effects  of Mach crit.  

  

 Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)  and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, windscreen  implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, etc.   The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments provided by  the manufacturer.  It is also affected by the gust factor and other  government  imposed guidelines on designers.  Allowances are made, and  some safety factors are involved but not printed for public use.  Vne has  never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I have flown.   The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic pressure) and mach effects  period.  

  

 The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,

 The T-33 by the mach crit.

 The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and  pressure)

  

  You guys are too much into details on the internet.  All you guys need  to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed  important.  

  

 Bottom line:  Limits are limits.  Boldly going beyond them is to  be avoided.  Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to  the manufacturer.  By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to  meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!

  

 There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have been  to their funerals.  Build a Europa light and by the book and the aircraft  will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport aircraft.  If you  must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help willing to stand by their  recommendations.  Kit manufacturers which open up actual test results  expose themselves to assumptions that a novice may make in a modification  to the construction of his aircraft or its operation.

  

 All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field  experience.  That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to  aircraft mods.  The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work  within the system to make the product better.  And all the manufacturers  listen.  We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this  where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work.   Sorry for the rant.  Keep asking questions and doing the research.   Those of us who can help on these forums generally do.  I lost two hours of  shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can’t afford to do it as  often as I would like to weigh in.  Looks like I will be working late  tonight.

  

 I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on  registration.

  

 Off my soapbox now, 

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight

 813 653 4989

 www.customflightcreations.com

  

  

  

  

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terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Hi Bud,

  

 I am Dave's partner in  the Europa.  In your email you suggest leaving our plane registered as an  airplane (with two sets of wings), rather than trying to re-register it as a  plane with short wings and a motorglider with long wings, as quoted  below;

  

 'You do not need  to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.'

  

 If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as  a self launched glider pilot, can I  then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?

  

 regards,

 Terry Seaver

 N135TD

  

 

 

   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ALAN  YERLY

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net

Subject: Re:  motorglider V-speeds and registration

 

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Dave,

 As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and have  talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings.   

  

 It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads on  how to fill out the forms.

 Notes:  

 Register the aircraft as an airplane!  Not a motorglider.

 Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your fly-off  with both wings.

     They are in a nutshell:  Fly with short wings  the 40 hours (Clear your Stage 1).   Then fly an additional 5-10  hours depending on your DAR to establish the characteristics with the long wings  (when adding glider wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on  where to fly are considered and may be re-imposed).  

  

 You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot  rating.

 I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa  dual wing and pilot registration problems.  If your DAR has a problem,  he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior  trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.

  

 I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and  print.  All the numbers are there.

  

 I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening  for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter just  as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS.  Once deployed  they are smooth.  As a result of being harder to deploy above that  speed and personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and  the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft to near  normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they are mainly used in  the pattern rather than high speed descent.  The motor glider is  deceptively fast.  When built light and at low altitude (1500 feet) and 75%  power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 KIAS.  One updraft and a  little push over and you are over 120 in a heartbeat.

  

 As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings.  This presents  a problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of  speeds.  Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so  equipped.

  

 In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,  the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings.  Yes,  you must do another weight and balance.  Typical weight increase is 100  pounds.  (It was more of a reason to diet.)

  

 CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where full  aft stick limit is achieved.  CG limits are the same for both wings and the  aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings at about 60 inches  empty.  I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft stick due to forward CG  on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).

  

 I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.

  

 My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot (the  guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown or problems  with aircraft handling or the stability and control systems) and as such have  some experience in taking aircraft routinely to their design limits of airspeed  and G to assure proper operational safety.  I am also an Aeronautical  Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid EAAer.  So here is my rant edited for  children and sensitive adults:

  

  Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable as  they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.

  

 Vne 129 KIAS

 Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)  

 No idea what is maneuvering above 1370.  You must pull max G and  achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine  Vmanuever.  

 RE G limit

 You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to wing/airframe  stress.

 I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for  someone.  Hope the cut and paste is readable.

                           

       STRUCTURAL LIMIT:        

     +3.8g / -1.9g at        1370lbs.                         +3.5g / -1.5g at        

       1450 lbs.

                         +3.3g/-1.3 at 

       1550 lbs.

        

        



 The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370.  You should drop  your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning to for  verification.  

  

 Added Note:  The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds.  It will  get your attention.  The monowheel squats even more.  Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away with  it.  I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.   Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, that  doesn't mean yours will do the same.  Every builder has different standards  and conditions on building his aircraft.  That's why production aircraft  have quality control procedures but, we kit builders in the US are not blessed  or affected by them, only our personal QC.

  



  

 The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of this  printing.  The PFA has still not certified the wings because of the the PFA  getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and adjustments made years  ago.  John and Roger at the factory are pushing them as hard as they  can.

  

 As for Vne.  It is the value determined by the engineers and test  pilots together.

 It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of  the new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is  really a mach limit).  

  

 Added Note:  Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is  altitude dependent.  Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 480  KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots.  See the note on  your E6B computer and test it yourself.  Wing design (camber and sweep)  determine Mach crit.  The aircraft shape and planform determine the effects  of Mach crit.  

  

 Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)  and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, windscreen  implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, etc.   The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments provided by  the manufacturer.  It is also affected by the gust factor and other  government  imposed guidelines on designers.  Allowances are made, and  some safety factors are involved but not printed for public use.  Vne has  never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I have flown.   The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic pressure) and mach effects  period.  

  

 The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,

 The T-33 by the mach crit.

 The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and  pressure)

  

  You guys are too much into details on the internet.  All you guys need  to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors deemed  important.  

  

 Bottom line:  Limits are limits.  Boldly going beyond them is to  be avoided.  Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back to  the manufacturer.  By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to  meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!

  

 There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have been  to their funerals.  Build a Europa light and by the book and the aircraft  will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport aircraft.  If you  must change your aircraft, seek paid professional help willing to stand by their  recommendations.  Kit manufacturers which open up actual test results  expose themselves to assumptions that a novice may make in a modification  to the construction of his aircraft or its operation.

  

 All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field  experience.  That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach to  aircraft mods.  The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but work  within the system to make the product better.  And all the manufacturers  listen.  We in the states have more latitude and it is forums like this  where we can find out what has worked and what was done to make it work.   Sorry for the rant.  Keep asking questions and doing the research.   Those of us who can help on these forums generally do.  I lost two hours of  shop time putting together emails such as this, and I can’t afford to do it as  often as I would like to weigh in.  Looks like I will be working late  tonight.

  

 I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on  registration.

  

 Off my soapbox now, 

  

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight

 813 653 4989

 www.customflightcreations.com

  

  



  [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Hi Dave and Terry,



With full deference to my friend Bud who is the highest authority in the

US on all matters Europa, let me just say that you can, if you wish 

obtain the Op Lim letter exactly as you wish. Indeed, my OpLim for

N224XS is written exactly that way: when the long wings are installed

the aircraft is a glider, self-launch, and when the short wings installed,

a single engine airplane. All you need do is find a DAR who will write it

up that way.  When I registered my plane, the local DAR refused to see

things my way, so I consulted the EAA and they recommended several

other DARs who were more up-to-date and flexible.

_________________
Ira N224XS

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Bud

Your time and patience are much apreciated. There is no substitute for 

experience and my thanks go to anyone willing to share it. There are a 

quite a few on this list which make it well worth the time spent reading it.

One minor rant from me, "there is no such thing as a daft question"

Graham



ALAN YERLY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave,

 As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and 

 have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both wings. 

  

 It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of downloads 

 on how to fill out the forms.

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Terry,

  

 In my conversations with the FAA Registration branch and Airworthiness  branch it was a unanimous yes.  I was as shocked as you.  As an  example, consider an LSA pilot flying a certified champ under LSA rules,  the airplane meets the requirement that the pilot is flying under, yet a private  pilot can fly the same plane under the private pilot privledges. Therefore,  they must also allow a glider pilot with the proper motor glider  endorsements fly any motor glider.  A Single engine land aircraft  certified pilot, can fly a Europa motor glider as an airplane.  But  if the plane is registered as a glider he cannot fly without a glider  rating.  I found it interesting that the FAA does not have a motorglider  registration.  The aircraft is either a glider or an airplane.   With a couple of  exceptions in their own certification goof  ups.  (Last I talked to Helen in registration, they were looking for an  answer on how they were going to correct it, but it affects so few, they may not  do a thing.  You may put anything on the registration request form  and it can get typed in as you put it down, but that doesn't mean it is  correct according to their regs. )  

  

 I found the Oklahoma FAA pros to be very much can do.  Focused on what  we can do, and eager to help rather than prohibit.  Your local FSDO may not  see it this way on a ramp check, because most of them have no experience in an  aircraft which can be flown as airplane and motor glider, nor do they have much  experience with gliders, but they do understand the pilot ratings...   

  

   Feel free to call your FSDO and have him talk to Les or Brad.   

 Interesting, isn't it.  

  

 Bud



 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Graham,

 You’re a saint.

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Ira is correct and thank you for the note on the Ops limits.  That is  the area in which the DAR defines the aircraft limitations.  I too had to  search for a DAR that was willing to do the research, and we both  worked with the FAA Pros who made it all happen.

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Terry,

I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a 

defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he 

had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer 

is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical.

Ralph

MG 914 five years in the build, ugh!

Reno, NV



Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Bud,

 I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving 

 our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather 

 than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a 

 motorglider with long wings, as quoted below;

 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.'

 If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched 

 glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?

 regards,

 Terry Seaver

 N135TD



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY

 *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM

 *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net

 *Subject:* Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration



 Dave,

 As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and 

 have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both 

 wings.

 It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of 

 downloads on how to fill out the forms.

 Notes:

 Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.

 Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your 

 fly-off with both wings.

 They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your 

 Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to 

 establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider 

 wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly 

 are considered and may be re-imposed).

 You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.

 I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa 

 dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem, 

 he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior 

 trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.

 I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and 

 print. All the numbers are there.

 I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening 

 for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter 

 just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they 

 are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and 

 personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and 

 the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft 

 to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they 

 are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The 

 motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude 

 (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115 

 KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a 

 heartbeat.

 As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a 

 problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of 

 speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so 

 equipped.

 In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct, 

 the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings. 

 Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase 

 is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)

 CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where 

 full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both 

 wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings 

 at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft 

 stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).

 I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.

 My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot 

 (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown 

 or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control 

 systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely 

 to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational 

 safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid 

 EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:

 Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable 

 as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.

 Vne 129 KIAS

 Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)

 No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and 

 achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine 

 Vmanuever.

 RE G limit

 You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to 

 wing/airframe stress.

 I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for 

 someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.

 **

 *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: *

 	*+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.*

 **

 	**

 	

 *+3.5g / -1.5g at *

 *1450 lbs.*

 **

 	**

 	

 *+3.3g/-1.3 at *

 *1550 lbs.*

 **

 **



 The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop 

 your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning 

 to for verification.

 Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get 

 your attention. The monowheel squats even more.

 Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away 

 with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it. 

 Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits, 

 that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different 

 standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why 

 production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit 

 builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our 

 personal QC.

 The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of 

 this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of 

 the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and 

 adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing 

 them as hard as they can.

 As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test 

 pilots together.

 It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the 

 new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is 

 really a mach limit).

 Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is 

 altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is 

 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the 

 note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber 

 and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform 

 determine the effects of Mach crit.

 Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure) 

 and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence, 

 windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach, 

 etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments 

 provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor 

 and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are 

 made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public 

 use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I 

 have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic 

 pressure) and mach effects period.

 The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,

 The T-33 by the mach crit.

 The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and 

 pressure)

 You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need 

 to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors 

 deemed important.

 Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be 

 avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back 

 to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to 

 meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!

 There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have 

 been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the 

 aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport 

 aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional 

 help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers 

 which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions 

 that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his 

 aircraft or its operation.

 All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field 

 experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach 

 to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but 

 work within the system to make the product better. And all the 

 manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is 

 forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was 

 done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and 

 doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally 

 do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as 

 this, and I can’t afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh 

 in. Looks like I will be working late tonight.

 I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration.

 Off my soapbox now,

 Bud Yerly

 Custom Flight

 813 653 4989

 www.customflightcreations.com <http://www.customflightcreations.com>

 *

 *

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

and... if I recall correctly David told me that a quirk of the regs

allowed him to fly a motor glider IFR !!



On 9/27/07, Ralph K. Hallett III <n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Terry,

 I'm sure you remember David Anderson. He lost his medical when he got a

 defibrillator, built a MotorGlider and flew it as a self launch until he

 had the defib removed and got his 1st class medical back. So the answer

 is yes you fly it with your glider rating which doesn't require a medical.

 Ralph

 MG 914 five years in the build, ugh!

 Reno, NV



 Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote:

 > Hi Bud,

 > I am Dave's partner in the Europa. In your email you suggest leaving

 > our plane registered as an airplane (with two sets of wings), rather

 > than trying to re-register it as a plane with short wings and a

 > motorglider with long wings, as quoted below;

 > 'You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.'

 > If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched

 > glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?

 > regards,

 > Terry Seaver

 > N135TD

 >

 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > *From:* owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

 > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ALAN YERLY

 > *Sent:* Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:46 AM

 > *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com; davedeford(at)comcast.net

 > *Subject:* Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

 >

 > Dave,

 > As the Europa US Distributor I have registered a number of Europas and

 > have talked extensively with the FAA regarding registration of both

 > wings.

 > It is a piece of cake, and the EAA has an excellent series of

 > downloads on how to fill out the forms.

 > Notes:

 > Register the aircraft as an airplane! Not a motorglider.

 > Your DAR should by now have direction on the limitations for your

 > fly-off with both wings.

 > They are in a nutshell: Fly with short wings the 40 hours (Clear your

 > Stage 1). Then fly an additional 5-10 hours depending on your DAR to

 > establish the characteristics with the long wings (when adding glider

 > wings later, your initial airworthyness restrictions on where to fly

 > are considered and may be re-imposed).

 > You do not need to dual register the aircraft, that is the pilot rating.

 > I talked with the FAA senior trainer for DARs regarding the Europa

 > dual wing and pilot registration problems. If your DAR has a problem,

 > he can call Brad Outlaw or Les Sargent at the FAA (Brad is the senior

 > trainer for QC) and Brad will give him the straight skinny.

 > I am attaching the Motorglider Pilot Handbook for you to download and

 > print. All the numbers are there.

 > I have suggested an operational limitation for the airbrake opening

 > for one pilot due to his experience as his airbrakes tend to flutter

 > just as you crack open the airbrakes above 100KIAS. Once deployed they

 > are smooth. As a result of being harder to deploy above that speed and

 > personally, the resultant pitch down associated with them at speed and

 > the force to hold them open is a nuisance, so we limited his aircraft

 > to near normal flap lowering speeds of 85 KIAS because for him they

 > are mainly used in the pattern rather than high speed descent. The

 > motor glider is deceptively fast. When built light and at low altitude

 > (1500 feet) and 75% power on a Rotax 912S you will cruise near 110-115

 > KIAS. One updraft and a little push over and you are over 120 in a

 > heartbeat.

 > As for marking, the FAA was amenable to dual markings. This presents a

 > problem for EFIS equipped aircraft as the devices show only one set of

 > speeds. Perhaps your DAR will allow a placard next to the EFIS if so

 > equipped.

 > In my experience with the three motor gliders I have helped construct,

 > the CG shifts forward about .75 to 1.0 inch with the glider wings.

 > Yes, you must do another weight and balance. Typical weight increase

 > is 100 pounds. (It was more of a reason to diet.)

 > CG will determine if you achieve a stall or if it is nose heavy, where

 > full aft stick limit is achieved. CG limits are the same for both

 > wings and the aircraft flies best, in my opinion, with the long wings

 > at about 60 inches empty. I have only gotten down to 55 KIAS full aft

 > stick due to forward CG on the aircraft tested (59.25 inch).

 > I am posting, at my own dread, my rant on Vne to another builder.

 > My background is a military fighter pilot and a Functional Test Pilot

 > (the guy who gets stuck flying the aircraft after a complete teardown

 > or problems with aircraft handling or the stability and control

 > systems) and as such have some experience in taking aircraft routinely

 > to their design limits of airspeed and G to assure proper operational

 > safety. I am also an Aeronautical Engineer (Parks '72) and an avid

 > EAAer. So here is my rant edited for children and sensitive adults:

 > Airbrake extension is Vne but I find 85 knots to be most comfortable

 > as they can vibrate on opening and closing above 100KIAS.

 > Vne 129 KIAS

 > Vlg is 83 KIAS (Gear and Flaps came down together right!)

 > No idea what is maneuvering above 1370. You must pull max G and

 > achieve the stall simultaneously to find the value to determine

 > Vmanuever.

 > RE G limit

 > You must lower your G proportionately above 1370 lbs due to

 > wing/airframe stress.

 > I interpolated some a long time ago and made a placard in excel for

 > someone. Hope the cut and paste is readable.

 > **

 > *STRUCTURAL LIMIT: *

 >       *+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370lbs.*

 > **

 >       **

 >

 > *+3.5g / -1.5g at *

 > *1450 lbs.*

 > **

 >       **

 >

 > *+3.3g/-1.3 at *

 > *1550 lbs.*

 > **

 > **

 >

 > The landing gear has only been drop tested to 1370. You should drop

 > your aircraft 12 inches at the max landing weight you are redesigning

 > to for verification.

 > Added Note: The trigear legs move a lot at 1550 pounds. It will get

 > your attention. The monowheel squats even more.

 > Yes I have flown the aircraft over gross, but very gently and got away

 > with it. I don't do it on a routine basis and don't recommend it.

 > Although someone has flown their personal aircraft beyond the limits,

 > that doesn't mean yours will do the same. Every builder has different

 > standards and conditions on building his aircraft. That's why

 > production aircraft have quality control procedures but, we kit

 > builders in the US are not blessed or affected by them, only our

 > personal QC.

 > The Glider POH is attached but is not PFA approved or edited as of

 > this printing. The PFA has still not certified the wings because of

 > the the PFA getting to it, but all the testing has been completed and

 > adjustments made years ago. John and Roger at the factory are pushing

 > them as hard as they can.

 > As for Vne. It is the value determined by the engineers and test

 > pilots together.

 > It is generally an indicated airspeed or a mach number (some of the

 > new all glass biz jets display the limit on the TAS display but it is

 > really a mach limit).

 > Added Note: Mach varies primarily with temperature, therefore it is

 > altitude dependent. Mach and TAS are proportional in that .8 Mach is

 > 480 KTAS at F-4 cruise altitudes to within a couple of knots. See the

 > note on your E6B computer and test it yourself. Wing design (camber

 > and sweep) determine Mach crit. The aircraft shape and planform

 > determine the effects of Mach crit.

 > Vne is determined by the design limit, the Q limit (dynamic pressure)

 > and the structural anomalies such as flutter, wing divergence,

 > windscreen implosion, tail plane effectiveness due to critical mach,

 > etc. The value must be read by the pilot with basic flight instruments

 > provided by the manufacturer. It is also affected by the gust factor

 > and other government imposed guidelines on designers. Allowances are

 > made, and some safety factors are involved but not printed for public

 > use. Vne has never been a TAS limit in any design class or aircraft I

 > have flown. The airplane only feels indicated airspeed (dynamic

 > pressure) and mach effects period.

 > The T-38 is limited by the Q on the windscreen,

 > The T-33 by the mach crit.

 > The F-4 by the longitudinal stability and radome Q limit (heat and

 > pressure)

 > You guys are too much into details on the internet. All you guys need

 > to know is it is the limit that is imposed, by one of the factors

 > deemed important.

 > Bottom line: Limits are limits. Boldly going beyond them is to be

 > avoided. Changing the operational limits of an aircraft must go back

 > to the manufacturer. By the way Mr. Mac's engineers built the F-4 to

 > meet a certain spec and said, if you need more G, it will cost you!

 > There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots....I have

 > been to their funerals. Build a Europa light and by the book and the

 > aircraft will give you what we have found to be a delightful sport

 > aircraft. If you must change your aircraft, seek paid professional

 > help willing to stand by their recommendations. Kit manufacturers

 > which open up actual test results expose themselves to assumptions

 > that a novice may make in a modification to the construction of his

 > aircraft or its operation.

 > All manufacturers learn and improve their products through field

 > experience. That is why I respect the Europa Club and their approach

 > to aircraft mods. The UK owners are limited by PFA guidelines, but

 > work within the system to make the product better. And all the

 > manufacturers listen. We in the states have more latitude and it is

 > forums like this where we can find out what has worked and what was

 > done to make it work. Sorry for the rant. Keep asking questions and

 > doing the research. Those of us who can help on these forums generally

 > do. I lost two hours of shop time putting together emails such as

 > this, and I can't afford to do it as often as I would like to weigh

 > in. Looks like I will be working late tonight.

 > I hope this has helped and please call if you get stuck on registration.

 > Off my soapbox now,

 > Bud Yerly

 > Custom Flight

 > 813 653 4989

 > www.customflightcreations.com <http://www.customflightcreations.com>

 > *

 >

 >

 > *

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Dave,



We followed Dave Anderson's lead and registered our Europa as an Airplane / Motorglider.  We did that by adding a statement to the Program Letter that says it's a glider with long wings fitted and an airplane with short wings fitted.  Our Op Lims that the FAA gave us has that same statement in it.  Our Airworthiness Certificate also says Airplane / Motorglider.



Your pilot license shows your ratings, mine says ASEL; Glider; Instrument Airplane.  FAR Part 1 defines an "airplane as engine driven, fixed wing aircraft" and defines "glider as ..whose free flight does not depend principally on an engine".  So when my Europa is configured with the short wings, it is an airplane and I use my ASEL.  When it is fitted with the long wings it is a glider and I use my Glider Rating.  



In a similar manner, the FAR's require that I have a current Medical Cert when I exercise my ASEL privileges.  I do not have to have a Medical Cert when I exercise my Glider privileges.



There is also a note in AC21.17-2A para 7b that states that for a motorglider you must show that the calculation of max weight to wing span squared must not exceed .62 lb/ft squared.   I calculated this for a short wing XS and I got 1.85; for the original glider wings (42.6 ft wing span) I got .77; for the current wings (47.25 ft wing span) I got .61.  So you must have the new style wing tips to be legal.



In reality none of this matters UNLESS you are ramp checked or involved in an accident, incident or other action that gets the FAA's attention.



Bud,  Thank you for making the Motorglider POH available.  I didn't know it existed (even been told by E04 that it didn't!).  This makes operation of the motorglider much safer!



Paul, since my license says Instrument Airplane, I can't operate as a motorglider IFR.



Jim Butcher

N241BW Almost together again!

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Terry,  



You wrote, "If I lose my airplane medical and continue flying as a self launched glider pilot, can I then fly the long wing Europa AIRPLANE legally?"



The answer is NO.  To operate without a medical your Europa must be registered as a motorglider and have the long wings fitted. 



A pilot with ASEL (and no self launch glider rating) can only operate a Europa with the long wings fitted if the Op Lim does not specify the two configurations.  But then he must have a Medical.   



Certainly the motorglider configuration is a nice airplane with the engine running - John Hurst preferred that for long cross country flights! 



Jim Butcher

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Jim,



Thank you for your thoughtful (and hopefully definitive) statement on 

this issue...it's a keeper.



 	  Quote: 	
		   We followed Dave Anderson's lead and registered our Europa as an 

 Airplane / Motorglider.  We did that by adding a statement to the 

 Program Letter that says it's a glider with long wings fitted and an 

 airplane with short wings fitted.  Our Op Lims that the FAA gave us 

 has that same statement in it.  Our Airworthiness Certificate also 

 says Airplane / Motorglider.


	


One question: When you went thru your registration process, did you 

have the long wings in hand for inspection, or did you merely reference 

the Europa written material/pictures to support your application for 

dual categories?



Fred

A194

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Jim

I always said (to Ivan many times) the short wings were Too short. He 

always says it would spoil the handling to lengthen them but then he is 

obsessed with scarumbatics. Scared me a few times!

The rate of climb of the motor glider is much better than the short 

wing. I only flew it once but when I finally got the speed on full power 

climb out down to 70 kts the angle was so steep it was a while before I 

dared to turn! That was in G-ODTI (go dotty?) with the foam wings, which 

are still lying in the hangar I think,

Graham



h&amp;jeuropa wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Certainly the motorglider configuration is a nice airplane with the engine running - John Hurst preferred that for long cross country flights! 

 

 Jim Butcher

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137107#137107

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Graham Singleton



Tel: +441629820187

Mob: +447739582005

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Fred,



Although we had purchased the long wings, they were not at the airport during the inspection.  We did have the air brake control installed but the inspector really did not question the dual registration or whether we actually were building the long wings.



We did tell the inspector (an FAA inspector from the Grand Rapids MI FSDO), when we submitted the paperwork prior to his inspection, that this had been done previously by Dave Anderson and he asked us to send him a copy of Dave's Airworthiness Certificate.  We'd be happy to send a copy of our paperwork to anyone that needs it.



Having an EFIS makes changing the airspeed range marks easy - it's a simple change in a table in the EFIS that you change on the ground when  we change the wings.  Not sure yet how to handle our Perpherial Software Angle Of Attack calibration.



Jim Butcher

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Hi Jim



I would like a copy of the paperwork please as I am going to try to have my

registration amended to include "dual" purpose. Right now the inspector just

copied the UK registration when he did his paperwork. So I am a single

engine land, with a restriction of "no aerobatics" yeh right 

Any help would be appreciated.

Many Thanks



Alan



--

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Re: motorglider V-speeds and registration

Alan,



I have copies of the registration made.  Please send me your email address off list.  



Jim Butcher

butcher43(at)att.net



do not archive

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