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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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At 11:15 AM 9/28/2007 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: |
>>I don't suppose you read the papers? How many Chinese products have had
>>seriousquality problems this year?
>
> . . . as opposed to how many products have NOT had serious quality
> problems? Popular media is the last place one can acquire the
> big picture for significance of any particular issue. Yes,
> lead in the kiddy-toy paint is the crisis du jour found worthy
> of much renting of garments and gnashing of teeth this month.
> Next month it will be something else. The free market has nothing to
do with
> quality or origin of goods and services. In a FREE market, the
> buyer is FREE to make a buy-or-pass decision; the seller is
> equally FREE to make a sell-or-pass decision.
The problem is, in china's case, it's not a free market. China pegs it's
currency
to the US dollar at an unrealistic rate.
|
<snip>
Yes, but how do you START up a free market? We KNOW it
cannot be legislated. Government creates no value, it only
taxes productivity of others and snags a good percentage of
it for its own pockets as the cash goes buy.
Given that NO organization can decree a free market into existence what
would we propose? Demonstrations? Letters to American leadership?
Letters to China's leadership? Sanctions? Letters to the United Nations?
Boycotts? It's a demonstrable fact of history that none of these
activities has ever produced the intended result. Many times
the effect was opposite the intended result. Free markets
happen spontaneously in the absence of forces (attacks upon liberty)
that prevent them from evolving.
The bright star on the horizon for those folks the building of
an infrastructure that uses labor to add value to raw materials
teamed with communication, transportation and financial conduits
to support ANY KIND OF MARKET.
Hypothetical: Would you rather stand on a tall building in
Bejing or the top of a tree in Africa and preach the
doctrine of a free markets? In spite of Africa's rich
resources in raw materials and even educable person-power,
there is NO infrastructure. The Soviet republics had an
opportunity to make the quantum jump into free market world
trade because when the empire fell, it had a wobbly but
repairable infrastructure.
But let us not believe it's a noble thing to cry in our
beer and bemoan the ineffectual prattle of governments
or heads of world banks. The more China's infrastructure
grows, the more difficult it will be for small and
dishonorable minds to micro-manage from a central office.
The best we can do for the Chinese people is DEMONSTRATE
what it means to participate in a free market irrespective
of the organizational structure from which they presently
suffer.
That means continue to make the free-market buy-or-pass
decisions of their products based on our perceptions of
value. It also means we don't by sub-standard products
and/or send them back. When and if those in power finally
demonstrate their inability to function in the free market,
the folks really doing the work will already have graduated
from Free-Market 280. Folks in Africa have only the bushes
and mountains to revolt for, the Chinese will have
communications, transportation and facilities to fight
for. Which battle would you be most willing to risk your
life for?
The notion that any entity is capable of compelling the
Chinese government to "let their people go" is a
demonstrable fantasy. But to invite folks to jump the
fence to join us in a demonstrably greener pasture
generates millions of tiny leaks in dam that no
government has EVER been able plug. Some of HF's
products suck . . . and I don't buy them. Some of
them are good value and I do buy them. We can do no
more and we should not do less. To mount a really
effective boycott against Chinese products will only
reinforce their government resolve, make the Chinese
people hungrier, and accomplish nothing of value.
If I were to advise Chinese entrepreneurs today
I would suggest they develop a marketable health services
community. Given the present slide of the Free
World's health care, it may well be that our
children and grandchildren discover that an airline
ticket to China offers a timely and capable alternative
to health care available in the United States. Right
now it doesn't matter whether they develop a ability
by command of the Chinese counterpart to Ted Kennedy
or as independent entrepreneurial endeavor. Having it
in place after the Great Transition is what's most
important.
When and if the Great Transition happens for the
Chinese people, it could be very EXPENSIVE in both
human capital and facilities. What we would hope
for is that their remaining ability to produce and
sell in a free market makes them an attractive
source of goods and services for all of us. The
more stuff we can buy from them then, the faster they
will recover. Buying lots of useful stuff is the
finest form of foreign aid we could offer.
Hopefully it's a bloodless revolution that allows them
to enroll in Free Market 301 . . . but it may not. In the
final analysis it's folks that know how to add value
to raw materials and market the products who will prevail.
But only if there are good examples to emulate and the
tools of production are in place. That's the only thing you
and I can do without being a party to attacks on someone's
liberties . . . be good examples.
Bob . . .
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JohnInReno
Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, but how do you START up a free market? We KNOW it
cannot be legislated. Government creates no value, it only
taxes productivity of others and snags a good percentage of
it for its own pockets as the cash goes buy.
|
snip
| Quote: | When and if the Great Transition happens for the
Chinese people, it could be very EXPENSIVE in both
human capital and facilities. What we would hope
for is that their remaining ability to produce and
sell in a free market makes them an attractive
source of goods and services for all of us. The
more stuff we can buy from them then, the faster they
will recover. Buying lots of useful stuff is the
finest form of foreign aid we could offer.
|
Good points, Bob. I like to think that the "Great Transition" will be as
bloodless as the Soviet Union's. The Chinese system is currently a
"kinda sort of" representative government in that they do vote for their
local representative to the communist party.
If you enjoy "Good Value", take a riverboat cruise up the Yangtze river
to and through the Three Gorges Dam while the exchange rate is still
favorable. Highly recommended.
John Morgensen
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_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale |
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mjpnj(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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| Quote: | >The problem is, in china's case, it's not a free market. China pegs it's
>currency
>to the US dollar at an unrealistic rate.
<snip>
Yes, but how do you START up a free market? We KNOW it
cannot be legislated. Government creates no value, it only
taxes productivity of others and snags a good percentage of
it for its own pockets as the cash goes buy.
|
Bob, I don't really have answers. I will say one thing, free markets are
the natural market, it requires force and lack of freedom to have anything
else. As far as provoking capitalism in China, there is no way, they don't
have the pre-requisite personal freedom required.
China's current economic might is based on currency fraud, not cheap labor or
sizable natural resources or individual's desire to better themselves. As long
as this continues their economy will never lead their people to freedom.
(Hong Kong is a different story).
Capitalism and freedom are really the same thing. You can't have one without
the other. By this definition I'm not really sure how free I am anymore and
because this country is the only one I have a voice in, this country is the
only one I'm really focused on. The currency situation hurts the domestic
economy for the benefit of a country that, at the least, doesn't need the
help and at worse is using this unwarranted benefit to build a military to
confront us.
| Quote: |
Given that NO organization can decree a free market into existence what
would we propose? Demonstrations? Letters to American leadership?
Letters to China's leadership? Sanctions? Letters to the United Nations?
Boycotts? It's a demonstrable fact of history that none of these
activities has ever produced the intended result. Many times
the effect was opposite the intended result. Free markets
happen spontaneously in the absence of forces (attacks upon liberty)
that prevent them from evolving.
|
I whine to my representatives about the currency issue. Lately, I think spitting
on a rock would be more constructive than talking to any of my representatives
about anything.
I don't believe in not buying Chinese products. I buy as much stuff at harbor
freight as anybody else. I would like to know where products are sourced so I can
avoid putting stuff in my mouth that had any chinese pedigree considering the
current revelations in the headlines. If I had kids (since they put everything in
their mouths) I wouldn't want any chinese anything around them.
Or in short, I'm not being xenophobic, I just want a level playing field for
everyone. Anything else is not capitalism and therefore isn't freedom.
-----
mjpnj(at)yahoo.com
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
Michael Pereira <mjpnj(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | China's current economic might is based on currency fraud, not cheap labor or
sizable natural resources or individual's desire to better themselves. As long
as this continues their economy will never lead their people to freedom.
(Hong Kong is a different story).
|
How much time have you spent in China?
This weekend I met up with a friend who flies for Cathay Pacific, based in Hong Kong. Many of his blocks of flights have overnights in various cities in China, so he has observed China first hand for many years. He reports that while the government is still communist, the Chinese economy is very capitalist. The working people want all the stuff that we in the west have, and they are willing to work long days, six days a week to get it. Their economy is growing very rapidly as a result, and the standard of living of many people in the cities is improving very rapidly. He recommends that our children learn Mandarin, rather than Spanish or French. He believes that China's economy will eventually dominate that of the western countries.
Kevin Horton
do not archive
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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| Quote: |
Capitalism and freedom are really the same thing. You can't have one without
the other. By this definition I'm not really sure how free I am anymore and
because this country is the only one I have a voice in, this country is the
only one I'm really focused on. The currency situation hurts the domestic
economy for the benefit of a country that, at the least, doesn't need the
help and at worse is using this unwarranted benefit to build a military to
confront us.
|
Agreed . . . and if our elected officials would pay
more attention to their oath with respect to constitutional
behavior, we have less messing in the personal lives
of citizens and more attention to matters of state
and national security.
| Quote: | I whine to my representatives about the currency issue. Lately, I think
spitting
on a rock would be more constructive than talking to any of my
representatives
about anything.
|
I discovered that about 27 years ago when EVERY thing
my senators assured me would come to pass in fact did
not. I've still got their letters in my files.
I have to believe that the currency issues will fare
better if bureaucrats and regulators keep their hands
off. Of course, that may still not offer the outcome that
we would wish, but it's probably the outcome we brought
upon ourselves by allowing our currency to "float"
70+ years ago.
| Quote: | I don't believe in not buying Chinese products. I buy as much stuff at harbor
freight as anybody else. I would like to know where products are sourced
so I can
avoid putting stuff in my mouth that had any chinese pedigree considering the
current revelations in the headlines. If I had kids (since they put
everything in
their mouths) I wouldn't want any chinese anything around them.
|
No doubt, 20 years from now that will change . . .
| Quote: | Or in short, I'm not being xenophobic, I just want a level playing field for
everyone. Anything else is not capitalism and therefore isn't freedom.
|
And it's not profiling either. You're just reducing your
risks for unhappy consequences of behaviors that do not
meet your standards.
As citizens, we're obligated and empowered to vote against
those who do not embrace honorable behavior. There
are certainly many who enjoy the benefits of having
put dishonorable people in power. The sad thing
is that I have yet to observe actions or hear/read
the words of any individual seeking public office
that gives me much hope.
Bob . . .
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mjpnj(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: Responsible Consumerism in a Free Market |
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| Quote: | > as this continues their economy will never lead their people to freedom.
> (Hong Kong is a different story).
|
| Quote: | How much time have you spent in China?
|
Admittedly none.
| Quote: | This weekend I met up with a friend who flies for Cathay Pacific, based in Hong
Kong. Many of his blocks of flights have overnights in various cities in China,
so he has observed China first hand for many years. He reports that while
the government is still communist, the Chinese economy is very capitalist.
|
I'm sorry, that is a contradiction in terms. I also know what you said is the
commonly held belief.
| Quote: | The
working people want all the stuff that we in the west have, and they are willing
to work long days, six days a week to get it.
|
I don't deny that anyone is willing to work hard to advance themselves. That's
natural state, not something that's a special right to people that live in this
country or theirs.
| Quote: | Their economy is growing
very rapidly as a result, and the standard of living of many people in the cities
is improving very rapidly.
|
Working hard isn't enough. People need the freedom to keep as much as they earn as
possible and to keep government out of their lives. China is succeeding despite not
having that prerequisite due to their currency policies. In theory, we are allowing
these imbalances to occur because in the long run economic prosperity will reform
their government. Governments reform in that situation only when not doing so will
hurt their economy enough that they have to worry about revolt from their people.
The chinese government is getting a free ride and has no incentive to change under
the current situation.
And no, I don't consider our current economy capitalistic either under my own
restraints I mentioned above. That's a problem, not something for other countries
to emulate.
You can also turn this around and consider it a reflection of great immorality of our
elected representatives for not pushing harder for currency reform. This policy just
doesn't hurt our country it will deny freedom to Chinese citizens for a longer
period of time (assuming china's citizen's ever achieve it).
The prosperity in China's city's is not reflected in china as a whole. There's abject
poverty for anyone not in the party in rural china.
| Quote: | He recommends that our children learn Mandarin,
rather than Spanish or French. He believes that China's economy will eventually
dominate that of the western countries.
|
Ummm...don't tell la raza that. lol. As far as dominating us, I don't buy it.
America only loses in the presence of an unlevel playing field. Once this goes on
long enough to hurt our economy enough china's will lose it's main market.
c'ya,
Michael
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
Michael Pereira <mjpnj(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | China's current economic might is based on currency fraud, not cheap labor or
|
| Quote: | sizable natural resources or individual's desire to better themselves. As long
|
| Quote: | as this continues their economy will never lead their people to freedom.
(Hong Kong is a different story).
|
How much time have you spent in China?
This weekend I met up with a friend who flies for Cathay Pacific, based in Hong
Kong. Many of his blocks of flights have overnights in various cities in China,
so he has observed China first hand for many years. He reports that while
the government is still communist, the Chinese economy is very capitalist. The
working people want all the stuff that we in the west have, and they are willing
to work long days, six days a week to get it. Their economy is growing
very rapidly as a result, and the standard of living of many people in the cities
is improving very rapidly. He recommends that our children learn Mandarin,
rather than Spanish or French. He believes that China's economy will eventually
dominate that of the western countries.
Kevin Horton
do not archive
-----
mjpnj(at)yahoo.com
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
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