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jpx(at)qenesis.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

I am building a Dream Aircraft Tundra (4 place aluminum bushplane) and  

am confused as to what wire to buy.



Most wire comparisons list TKT as being the only thing that is wonderful.

However, most companies seem to be selling Tefzel for homebuilt aircraft.



Is there a convenient source of reasonable lengths of TKT wire ?



Thanks !



Jeff Page

Tundra #10

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

At 06:35 PM 10/2/2007 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am building a Dream Aircraft Tundra (4 place aluminum bushplane) and

am confused as to what wire to buy.



Most wire comparisons list TKT as being the only thing that is wonderful.

However, most companies seem to be selling Tefzel for homebuilt aircraft.



Is there a convenient source of reasonable lengths of TKT wire ?


	


  Why do you want TKT?  M22759 Tefzel has been the wire

  of choice in Wichita for tens of thousands of airplanes

  for about 25 years.



  Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------

        ( "Problems are the price of progress. )

        ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )

        ( Good news weakens me."               )

        (              -Charles F. Kettering-  )

        ----------------------------------------

JOE RONCO

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 31
Location: CENTENNIAL COLORADO

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

BOB: I don't know anything about aircraft wire but in surfing the net I

found this link. Comments?



http://www.vision.net.au/%7Eapaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm



Joe R



--

tonybabb(at)alejandra.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

In surfing the web some I found this

http://etd-submit.etsu.edu/etd/theses/available/etd-0714104-142243/unrestric

ted/KiptinessS080904f.pdf

On page 100 it seems to say that TKT and Mil Spec 22759 are equivalent.

Usual disclaimers - I'm electrically challenged etc.



Tony



--

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: Wire specifications

 	  Quote: 	
		  Subject: RE: Wire specifications




BOB: I don't know anything about aircraft wire but in surfing the net I

found this link. Comments?



http://www.vision.net.au/%7Eapaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm



Joe R


	


   Oh yeah, THAT link.



   Discussing wire types is taking a drink from the

   firehose. There are as many recipes as there are

   chefs . . . each having the fondest wish that

   his/her dish becomes the worldwide favorite.

   Then there are wires designed for specific

   applications for industry or aerospace intended

   for use in situations we'll never see on our

   airplanes . . . nor could we afford to buy the

   wire even if we wanted it.



   I took the FAA to task some years ago about

   the extensive list of "suggested and/or semi

   approved" wire materials in AC43.13. Obviously

   intended to aid technicians and mechanics in the

   field. While the data presented in the tables

   (and in the link you cited above) are mostly

   correct factually, it's like asking someone

   for whom English is a second language to

   do the assembly manual for a tricycle and

   then suggesting that the 10-volume set Oxford

   dictionary would be a good resource. . .



815f27e.jpg



   The majority of wired types suggested in AC43-13 would

   be hard for ME to get and I do business with the world's

   premier suppliers of the stuff. To offer that 'comprehensive'

   list was a waste of both the writer's and the reader's time. Of

   course the writer was on the taxpayer's payroll.



   Allow me to suggest that M22759 Tefzel from the popular

   suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry is the finest

   wire we've used in GA aircraft to date, is widely available

   and reasonably priced. Praying over the Concise Dictionary

   for Wire is probably not a good use of your time beyond

   expanding your intellectual horizons on the universe of

   wire types.



   Bob . . .

815f27e.jpg

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JOE RONCO

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 31
Location: CENTENNIAL COLORADO

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Thanks Bob. I now get the picture (I think) and won't spend any more

time on this topic.



Joe R



--

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Bob,



Would you also say that it's at least as important to install wire

correctly as it is to choose the correct insulation material?  Certainly

many would say PVC insulation is evil and its use is suicidal/homicidal,

but a good many airplanes will (have) go(ne) to the bone yard with big

bundles of it, not because of wiring safety but because of airframe

fatigue life..  To me that says that it's possible to use wire with PVC

insulation, but today the incremental cost associated with upgrading to

Tefzel is low enough that it's worth the benefits of more robust

mechanicals.

Regards,



Matt-

 	  Quote: 	
		  

>Subject: RE: Wire specifications

>

>

>BOB: I don't know anything about aircraft wire but in surfing the net I

>found this link. Comments?

>

>http://www.vision.net.au/%7Eapaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm

>

>Joe R



    Oh yeah, THAT link.



    Discussing wire types is taking a drink from the

    firehose. There are as many recipes as there are

    chefs . . . each having the fondest wish that

    his/her dish becomes the worldwide favorite.

    Then there are wires designed for specific

    applications for industry or aerospace intended

    for use in situations we'll never see on our

    airplanes . . . nor could we afford to buy the

    wire even if we wanted it.



    I took the FAA to task some years ago about

    the extensive list of "suggested and/or semi

    approved" wire materials in AC43.13. Obviously

    intended to aid technicians and mechanics in the

    field. While the data presented in the tables

    (and in the link you cited above) are mostly

    correct factually, it's like asking someone

    for whom English is a second language to

    do the assembly manual for a tricycle and

    then suggesting that the 10-volume set Oxford

    dictionary would be a good resource. . .



 815f27e.jpg



    The majority of wired types suggested in AC43-13 would

    be hard for ME to get and I do business with the world's

    premier suppliers of the stuff. To offer that 'comprehensive'

    list was a waste of both the writer's and the reader's time. Of

    course the writer was on the taxpayer's payroll.



    Allow me to suggest that M22759 Tefzel from the popular

    suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry is the finest

    wire we've used in GA aircraft to date, is widely available

    and reasonably priced. Praying over the Concise Dictionary

    for Wire is probably not a good use of your time beyond

    expanding your intellectual horizons on the universe of

    wire types.



    Bob . . .

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Wire specifications

If you have ever (Like I have) had a wire short out behind the

instrument panel in your car that was not fused properly you will

certainly avoid PVC like the plague.



The rate the fire burns everything up and the thick accrid smoke it

produces would make such an event in an airplane life threatening!



Don't even think about it!



Frank



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Joe Ronco wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 BOB: I don't know anything about aircraft wire but in surfing the net I

 found this link. Comments?



 http://www.vision.net.au/%7Eapaterson/aviation/wire_types.htm



 Joe R



   

Wow!  There's only ONE type of wire that is known to be safe.  All of 
	


those planes flying millions of miles year in and year out are just 

ticking time-bombs, waiting for a wire to explode and send them crashing 

into the seas.  Luckily, there's someone with demonstrable proof of all 

the danger we've faced for the last 4 decades.

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Matt Prather wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bob,



 Would you also say that it's at least as important to install wire

 correctly as it is to choose the correct insulation material?  Certainly

 many would say PVC insulation is evil and its use is suicidal/homicidal,

 but a good many airplanes will (have) go(ne) to the bone yard with big

 bundles of it, not because of wiring safety but because of airframe

 fatigue life..  To me that says that it's possible to use wire with PVC

 insulation, but today the incremental cost associated with upgrading to

 Tefzel is low enough that it's worth the benefits of more robust

 mechanicals.

   

Hear! Hear!
	




Call up Wiremasters.  The sell in bulk and don't mind homebuilders.



I don't have their number or my receipt handy, but I think it was about 

$150 I spent.  I got enough spools of multi-colored, tinned-copper 

Tefzel to wire my whole airplane and have enough left over to do most of 

the next.  I may have been able to find quality PVC for less, but I 

would probably had to go surplus.  I bought 100' spools of 22AWG (red, 

green, white, black), 20AWG (red, green, white, black), 18AWG (red, 

green, white, black), 16AWG(white), 12AWG(white).  I also got 50' spools 

of 8AWG(white) and 4AWG(white).  That covers everything but the battery 

cable, which I covered with welding cable.



The multi-color isn't an absolute need, but is nice to have.  It cuts 

down on some of the labeling requirements, especially when bundles of 

related wires are twisted.  Just chuck one end in the drill, pinch the 

other end and squeeze the trigger until the bundles starts shrinking.  

For instance, the magnetometer connects to the Dynon EFIS with a power, 

ground and two signal lines.  Red, black, white and green (respectively) 

and it doesn't really need a label at all; though it does get a big 

"magnetometer" sticker for good measure.



The rack of wire is incredibly useful when the time comes.  Just run the 

wires and not worry about estimating how much of each is needed.  It's a 

good item for a builder group to have.  Pay for what you use, and then 

pass it on to the next guy.  Reload with a multi-hundred foot spool when 

one runs out.

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: Wire specifications

A coworker had an electrical fire behind the dash of his BMW.  The smoke was so thick and acrid that he was unable to keep his eyes open.  Fortunately it occurred immediately after start while the car was stopped.  He turned off the key, opened the door, rolled out onto the ground and crawled away.  He was very, very glad he was not moving when this occurred, because he is convinced he would not have been able to see to control the car.



Kevin Horton



On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:08:02 -0000

"Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 If you have ever (Like I have) had a wire short out behind the

 instrument panel in your car that was not fused properly you will

 certainly avoid PVC like the plague.

 

 The rate the fire burns everything up and the thick accrid smoke it

 produces would make such an event in an airplane life threatening!

 

 Don't even think about it!

 

 Frank

 

 --

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Danged BMW's and their electrical problems!  Being a former BMW owner, I

can attest to the fact that their electrical systems were not built to

Aeroelectric standards...    While I loved the way my '96 328i drove -

economy, handling, speed (when it ran properly), I finally got disgusted

with the string of expensive to fix issues the car had.

At least if your friend had been rolling down the road when the failure

occurred, there would have been airflow available to evacuate the smoke.

Matt-

[quote] 

 <khorton01(at)rogers.com>

 A coworker had an electrical fire behind the dash of his BMW.  The smoke

 was so thick and acrid that he was unable to keep his eyes open.

 Fortunately it occurred immediately after start while the car was stopped.

  He turned off the key, opened the door, rolled out onto the ground and

 crawled away.  He was very, very glad he was not moving when this

 occurred, because he is convinced he would not have been able to see to

 control the car.

 Kevin Horton

 On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:08:02 -0000

 "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com> wrote:

> 

> (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>

>

> If you have ever (Like I have) had a wire short out behind the

> instrument panel in your car that was not fused properly you will

> certainly avoid PVC like the plague.

>

> The rate the fire burns everything up and the thick accrid smoke it

> produces would make such an event in an airplane life threatening!

>

> Don't even think about it!

>

> Frank

>

> --

cnpeters

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 23
Location: Bloomington/Normal, IL

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Wire specifications

Bob (and anyone else who has wire length data for their RV),

So you had more than enough ordering 100 feet of each color and gauge you mention below, or were these multi 100' spools? 

If I was to simplify the number of gauges to keep in stock, what would you recommend? Aside from some situations (alternator, etc), would 18 and 22G cover a typical RV?

I ask, as I am getting ready to place an order and want to try and cover the whole project (RV-9A, Dynon glass EMS/EFIS, setup for VFR day and night).

Thanks,

Carl 

[/quote]



Call up Wiremasters.  The sell in bulk and don't mind homebuilders.



I don't have their number or my receipt handy, but I think it was about 

$150 I spent.  I got enough spools of multi-colored, tinned-copper 

Tefzel to wire my whole airplane and have enough left over to do most of 

the next.  I may have been able to find quality PVC for less, but I 

would probably had to go surplus.  I bought 100' spools of 22AWG (red, 

green, white, black), 20AWG (red, green, white, black), 18AWG (red, 

green, white, black), 16AWG(white), 12AWG(white).  I also got 50' spools 

of 8AWG(white) and 4AWG(white).  That covers everything but the battery 

cable, which I covered with welding cable.



The multi-color isn't an absolute need, but is nice to have.  It cuts 

down on some of the labeling requirements, especially when bundles of 

related wires are twisted.  Just chuck one end in the drill, pinch the 

other end and squeeze the trigger until the bundles starts shrinking.  

For instance, the magnetometer connects to the Dynon EFIS with a power, 

ground and two signal lines.  Red, black, white and green (respectively) 

and it doesn't really need a label at all; though it does get a big 

"magnetometer" sticker for good measure.



The rack of wire is incredibly useful when the time comes.  Just run the 

wires and not worry about estimating how much of each is needed.  It's a 

good item for a builder group to have.  Pay for what you use, and then 

pass it on to the next guy.  Reload with a multi-hundred foot spool when 

one runs out.[/quote]

_________________
Carl Peters
RV-9A wings

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

That's an awfull lot of some of the wire, but probably tight on a few

others.  Couple of suggestions:



All power wires red (down to about AWG14 which is the largest size most

people stock in colors), Ground wires black, lighting wires yellow, signal

wires white, etc...  Pick a scheme and stick with it.  In our shop we pretty

much do that as standard practice.



Also 50' of AWG8?!?!  Normally on an a 2 seat RV you'd see about 4-6' total!



AWG20 you'll hardly use at all outside of the panel, and then the amount can

vary dramatically depending on what you wire.  AWG16 is also something you

may use a lot of or use almost none of...depending on equipment...same with

AWG14. AWG18 and AWG22 are the big ones!



The suggestion presented previously about twisting the Dynon wires brings up

another point....SHIELDED WIRES!  Most of the EFIS's with remote mag's

recommend them to be shielded (especially Dynon).  If you're going to

install a dynon or AFS unit it would be wise to use shielded wire now while

you can instead of trying to fix the gremlins later.



Same goes with audio wiring.  The jacks, radio, intercom, etc.. should be

wired with shielded wire, and lots of avionics also require shielded wire.



I'm a fan of people buying lots of wire , but the best approach is to

conceptually decide what is going to be in the plane (lighting, avioincs,

engine, batteries) and then decide.  Your requirements may vary by literally

many hundreds of feet just by the avionics alone.  Also, if you don't wire

up your own panel, then you'll need much less wire.



I hate to tell you this, but no matter how much stuff you buy up front in

your initial shotgun blast, you'll still likely be left needing something

you forgot....it's just part of building - UPS loves it!



Just my 2 cents as usual



Cheers,

Stein



PS, excuse the typos...I'm still typing with one hand.



--

jpx(at)qenesis.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: Wire specifications

Ok, Tefzel wire it is.  Wire Masters and Stein both appear to have  

useful information on their web sites and will probably ship to  

Canada.  Thanks.



Looking under the instrument panel of my 1970 Cessna 172, I had  

believed that all aircraft wire was white.  Of course this has made it  

extremely difficult to follow a particular wire somewhere.

I had planned to use a little spray paint to identify wires, but  

looking at the web sites, the Tefzel wire is available in a nice  

rainbow of colors.

So should I purchase a variety of colours and end up with too much of  

some colors and not enough of others, or should I stick with my  

original plan and buy white and spray tracer colors on it ?

If so, how would I determine that the paint would not degrade the  

insulation over time ?



Thanks again !  Jeff Page



 	  Quote: 	
		   Allow me to suggest that M22759 Tefzel from the popular

 suppliers to the OBAM aircraft industry is the finest

 wire we've used in GA aircraft to date, is widely available

 and reasonably priced. Praying over the Concise Dictionary

 of Wire is probably not a good use of your time beyond

 expanding your intellectual horizons on the universe of

 wire types.

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Despite what they said, Wiremasters shipped UPS instead of USPS to me 

though which added another $50.+ brokerage etc....  Probalby cause they 

put the wire on spools and used a huge box to ship. OTOH their price on 

RG400 was excellant.

You can use up a 100' roll pretty quick just running out to nav lights 

and wingtip strobe power supplies.  95% of my wire is #18 or #22.

Ken



Jeff Page wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ok, Tefzel wire it is.  Wire Masters and Stein both appear to have  

 useful information on their web sites and will probably ship to  

 Canada.  Thanks.

 snip

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Jeff,

I like your strategy, mix it up a bit. I'm doing the same as I am sick

of white or in the real oldies, fabric mixed in between. Asking about

preference in color on this board is akin to asking what type of ice

cream everyone likes  Logically I like the concept of associating

color with function. GPS is blue, com is orange, audio is green, ground

is black etc. Everyone will have their own preference. What works best

for you is what makes for good logic in your mind. Even if you follow

well thought out color patterns, some good labeling is always helpful.



Of course documenting your work will help you a year from now when the

colors all blend together.



BTW - Does anyone know where I can get one of those deals (I don't know

what they're called) the shops use to label the nice yellow shrink

covers they put on the ends of their connections?



--

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: Wire specifications

I'm using the labeling method Bob suggests clear shrink tubing and 

computer printed labels.  Keeping a wire list in Excel or something that 

lists the labels should make future maintenance easier - especially if 

it falls to someone else.



Anyway, I just started but it seems to work.  B&C sells a labeling 'kit' 

with the needed sizes and amounts of clear shrink tubing.  Cheap and easy.



Bill "running first wires in the RV10 project" Watson



Jeff Page wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Looking under the instrument panel of my 1970 Cessna 172, I had 

 believed that all aircraft wire was white.  Of course this has made it 

 extremely difficult to follow a particular wire somewhere.

 I had planned to use a little spray paint to identify wires, but 

 looking at the web sites, the Tefzel wire is available in a nice 

 rainbow of colors.

 So should I purchase a variety of colours and end up with too much of 

 some colors and not enough of others, or should I stick with my 

 original plan and buy white and spray tracer colors on it ?

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Wire specifications

cnpeters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bob (and anyone else who has wire length data for their RV),

 So you had more than enough ordering 100 feet of each color and gauge you mention below, or were these multi 100' spools? 

 If I was to simplify the number of gauges to keep in stock, what would you recommend? Aside from some situations (alternator, etc), would 18 and 22G cover a typical RV?

 I ask, as I am getting ready to place an order and want to try and cover the whole project (RV-9A, Dynon glass EMS/EFIS, setup for VFR day and night).

 Thanks,

 Carl 



   

Barring any last minute changes, I've completed the wiring on my Delta, 
	


aft of the firewall.  Here is what my wire rack look like now:



http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/WireRack.jpg



I bought 100ft of everything except the RG-400, 8AWG and 4AWG.  I got 

50ft of each of those.  The 8 and 4 was bought seperately, but the total 

of everything else was $162.



Contact information:

Deb Sullivan

dsullivan(at)wiremasters.net

1-800-635-5342

www.wiremasters.net



They specialize in aviation and military wire, so you don't have to 

describe your project as an off-road vehicle like I do everywhere else.

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: Wire specifications

Stein Bruch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I hate to tell you this, but no matter how much stuff you buy up front in

 your initial shotgun blast, you'll still likely be left needing something

 you forgot....it's just part of building - UPS loves it!



   


	


Point well taken.  My orginal (and standing) goal was to put together a 

communal kit that all the builders in my chapter could use.  100ft of 

everything was just a feel-good number for a first attempt.  If I were 

to do it again, I'd buy much more of the 22AWG and much less of the 

thicker wires.  I'll need to order more of those for the next builder, 

but I'll have the thick stuff for a long time.  Of course, at 

WireMaster's prices it doesn't hurt so much to have all that extra stuff.



I made up a spreadsheet that calculated the wire loss for each size I 

bought.  Inputs were the load and total wire length.  The loss value 

turns red when it is greater than 5%.  Yellow when it's between 3 and 

5%.  I stayed away from the yellow, and there was practically no call 

for 16AWG or thicker (though, I did oversize a few for motors).  One 

thing I've done is to use LEDs for practically all the lighting, so that 

cuts down on some of the big wires.



I should have bought a roll or two of 22AWG shielded cable.

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