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pequeajim
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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Yeah, although I like lots of stuff electric, there is something to be said
for a manual trim wheel. Even though the aircraft can be flown "hands off"
as many put it, rarely does an electric trim, (if ever) supply the
resolution that one gets from a manual trim wheel properly set up.
That would be one addition that I would like to add later.
Jim!
--
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pequeajim
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim wheel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little things to see what I can add to an already great design.
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Whittingham
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:15 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Elevator trim
My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landing into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm flip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious. You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that. The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it without trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you probably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to landing. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a redundancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no longer living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the higher the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wide of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W.
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
01234
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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Jim,
If I had a Lightning of my own I would probably do the same. I like tinkering too much to leave it all stock. I like redundancy in my planes too. It might be overkill in a light airplane, if you're not flying IFR and whatever, but I just like redundant systems. I wouldn't think a trim wheel would be too hard to add in later. I have flown a Lightning where the bungees slipped off the trim and didn't have any trim. Just had to fly it a little like a tailwheel since the landing wanted to let the nosewheel smack down. The forces weren't too bad. I also flew one with a messed up trim system which is a whole other story, but basically the plane was trimming backwards in terms of stick forces getting heavier when they should've been getting lighter. So we reversed our thinking we still ran out of trim to maintain level. Again it was fine b/c of the stick forces. You can fly hands off and I did almost all of my flying that I got in Rick's plane using two fingers. Just really a pleasure to fly. That particular trim was sensitive, but you just needed a quick tap of the trim button. It wasn't so bad. I did get the pleasure to fly several different customer's planes and got a chance to see different ways that people did things. Flew with different cockpit displays, hatch designs, switch placement. It's interesting to see different ways that people decide to do things. Rick, did you ever get your wheelpants put on?
Also, if anybody is interested I have a CFI lesson plan that I came up for PRIMARY systems failures. Now probably none of you will ever have any of these kinds of failures in a lifetime of flying unless you get shot at or fly at high G a lot, but even primary control failures are very survivable. I didn't come up with this stuff, just read through various articles and about 90-100 pages of info about these situations. They were written mostly by well known aerobatics champs. (think about that, really twitchy planes, full span ailerons, and landing them safely) I know that Nick probably has seen and prepared for all of this, Buzz has done a lot of the same. Did you guys get any training on control systems failures in the Air force or did you just send it back to the taxpayers? Good Discussions and bouncing of ideas on here! Brian W.
| Quote: | From: pequeajim(at)gmail.com
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Manual Trim Wheel
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:49:12 -0400
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I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim wheel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little things to see what I can add to an already great design.
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Whittingham
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:15 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Elevator trim
My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landing into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm flip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious. You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that. The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it without trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you probably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to landing. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a redundancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no longer living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the higher the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wide of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W.
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now! |
Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now! [quote][b]
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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | | Also, if anybody is interested I have a CFI lesson plan that I came up for PRIMARY systems failures. Now probably none of you will ever have any of these kinds of failures in a lifetime of flying unless you get shot at or fly at high G a lot, but even primary control failures are very survivable. I didn't come up with this stuff, just read through various articles and about 90-100 pages of info about these situations. They were written mostly by well known aerobatics champs. (think about that, really twitchy planes, full span ailerons, and landing them safely) I know that Nick probably has seen and prepared for all of this, Buzz has done a lot of the same. |
Can you post it?
At the recent event in Shelbyville, I mentioned that it would be nice to have.
Doug Koenigsberg
See " target="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:37:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | | Did you guys get any training on control systems failures in the Air force |
Brain,
Have not had a chance to read your lesson plan yet, but to answer your above question - yes we did have a training plan for control system failure - it was called an ejection seat. The thinking was that combat pilots were worth more than a fighter aircraft. (However with today;s cost of an F-22 that thinking might have changed - just kidding.) In reality we had lots of back up systems built into the fighter's design to make them more survivable. Three hydraulic systems in the F-4 was one example, two engines was another example, foam in the fuel tanks, a ram air turbine for temp electrical power if you lost both generators, etc. Believe me, the F-4, which we lovingly called "double ugly" or the "rhino", could "take a licking and keep on ticking". In my 351 combat missions it got me back to home plate many time after having major battle damage and/or on one engine. Once with a hole in the right wing that you could stand in.
There was one situation that we were trained in that had to do with failure of both hydraulic systems that powered the stab. When you lost both of these, the airplane would pitch up (better than a pitch down, especially if you are on a low level ingress at something like 540 kts.). If that happened to you, and you still had the third hydraulic system that powered the rudder, it was possible to "roll off" to 90 degrees of bank to get the nose to fall back down from the extreme pitch up to somewhere below the horizon. After that use opposite rudder to go back to wings level and the resulting climb again. Do this maneuver enough times, varying left or right to get some sort of heading you are looking for and hopefully you get out of North Vietnam to "feet wet" where you could eject and have the Navy or one of the choppers pick you up. It saved several F-4 crews that would have otherwise spent time as POWs.
Having said all the above, for general aviation situations, the real thing that will save you (and your passenger) is being ready for the flight you are about to take. That simple statement really covers a lot of items - proper maintenance of the airplane, proper preflight of the airplane, proper flight planning to include contingencies and any weather considerations, being current and proficient for the flight, weather, and airplane you are about to fly, flying the mission so you always have an "out" or back up plan, and remembering three things to do in any in-flight emergency. Those three things in the proper order are:
1- Maintain aircraft control,
2- Analyze the situation and then take appropriate action,
3- Land as soon as practicable.
Blue Skies,
Buz
See what's t="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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pequeajim
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: Manual Trim Wheel |
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Buz:
Spoken just like my brother who was an F4 pilot…
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:46 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel
In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:37:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dashvii(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: |
Did you guys get any training on control systems failures in the Air force |
Brain,
Have not had a chance to read your lesson plan yet, but to answer your above question - yes we did have a training plan for control system failure - it was called an ejection seat. The thinking was that combat pilots were worth more than a fighter aircraft. (However with today;s cost of an F-22 that thinking might have changed - just kidding.) In reality we had lots of back up systems built into the fighter's design to make them more survivable. Three hydraulic systems in the F-4 was one example, two engines was another example, foam in the fuel tanks, a ram air turbine for temp electrical power if you lost both generators, etc. Believe me, the F-4, which we lovingly called "double ugly" or the "rhino", could "take a licking and keep on ticking". In my 351 combat missions it got me back to home plate many time after having major battle damage and/or on one engine. Once with a hole in the right wing that you could stand in.
There was one situation that we were trained in that had to do with failure of both hydraulic systems that powered the stab. When you lost both of these, the airplane would pitch up (better than a pitch down, especially if you are on a low level ingress at something like 540 kts.). If that happened to you, and you still had the third hydraulic system that powered the rudder, it was possible to "roll off" to 90 degrees of bank to get the nose to fall back down from the extreme pitch up to somewhere below the horizon. After that use opposite rudder to go back to wings level and the resulting climb again. Do this maneuver enough times, varying left or right to get some sort of heading you are looking for and hopefully you get out of North Vietnam to "feet wet" where you could eject and have the Navy or one of the choppers pick you up. It saved several F-4 crews that would have otherwise spent time as POWs.
Having said all the above, for general aviation situations, the real thing that will save you (and your passenger) is being ready for the flight you are about to take. That simple statement really covers a lot of items - proper maintenance of the airplane, proper preflight of the airplane, proper flight planning to include contingencies and any weather considerations, being current and proficient for the flight, weather, and airplane you are about to fly, flying the mission so you always have an "out" or back up plan, and remembering three things to do in any in-flight emergency. Those three things in the proper order are:
1- Maintain aircraft control,
2- Analyze the situation and then take appropriate action,
3- Land as soon as practicable.
Blue Skies,
Buz
See what's t="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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