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N7092A(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Ok this may have been a topic earlier but I am new to the list and a fairly  new Yak owner.

  

 Here is the deal,

  

 When the weather dips below 45 degrees it seems it take several times to  start the Yak.

  

 I am priming 7 times and pulling it through and another 3 just before  start.

 it Kicks over, sputters and then dies, I then have to prime again (not  pulling through) about 5 times and then it finally catches and goes after the  second to nth time.  Then it will cycle about 5 - 10% for the first minute  or two after starting.

  

 In hot weather it usually kicks over in the first rotation and runs  fine.

  

 Anybody seen this?  

  

 Mark Merrill

 N7092A YAK-52

 KPAO

PHCarter(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Mark

  

 You appear to be priming and such correctly.  May I suggest that you make sure you push, AND HOLD, the starter button.  In this way, the shower of sparks will continue to help the ignition of the mixture.  You should also be prepared to prime quickly as the engine starts to take hold.  Also make sure you are pumping up the fuel pressure just before attempting a start.

  

 The real suggestion here is holding the starter button for a while until the engine has really taken hold.  You are probably priming as the engine stuggles initially, but it not try it.

  

 I have had my Yak for about a year and a half and initially experienced similar problems with cold weather.  More experienced folks explained and demonstrated the starter holding technique.  Rarely have problems now.  Good luck.

  

 Preston

 N6209F

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

N7092A(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   When the weather dips below 45 degrees it seems it take several times to

 start the Yak.


	


This is not unusual for any aircraft engine. Vapor pressure of gasoline

decreases with temperature. That means there are fewer gasoline fumes to

burn (liquid gasoline will not burn).



The solution is to increase the amount of prime. There will be more

liquid fuel in the induction system so even if less of it vaporizes,

there is still enough to make the engine start. I use 50% to 100% more

primer when the temp is down near the temp where you might want to preheat.



But be careful. You have more of a chance for a backfire and possible

induction fire when it is cold.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

N7092A(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Thanks Brian,

I had a 182 that acted like this and adding more prime was the answer, I just 

wasn't sure with the M14.   

I also have been holding the starter down for a few turns but it doesn't seem 

to help other than drain the air.

I will try it and report back to you guys.

Mark Merrill

N7092A Yak 52

PAO

n a message dated 2/20/06 8:27:33 PM, brian-yak(at)lloyd.com writes:

[quote] 

 N7092A(at)aol.com wrote:

 > When the weather dips below 45 degrees it seems it take several times to

 > start the Yak.

 This is not unusual for any aircraft engine. Vapor pressure of gasoline

 decreases with temperature. That means there are fewer gasoline fumes to

 burn (liquid gasoline will not burn).

 The solution is to increase the amount of prime. There will be more

 liquid fuel in the induction system so even if less of it vaporizes,

 there is still enough to make the engine start. I use 50% to 100% more

 primer when the temp is down near the temp where you might want to preheat

shinden33(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Mark,



I just got my Yak a month ago and have had a similar problem.  The trick for

me seems to be to prime it 8 times and, as the other folks have mentioned,

HOLD THE STARTER.  I also healthily pump the throttle with my right hand

while holding the start button.  Of course being careful to not let it start

with too much RPM.



Scott

N8252



--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

A couple of things you might want to try Mark.

 1- After you pull the prime though and you have reseated yourself in the  cockpit and after you pump the second 3 shots of prime, stroke the throttle (MP)  twice from full back to full forward to full back.  Then move the throttle  to approximately 1/4 to 1/3 open.

 2- Now pull the primer out and turn to the right.

 3- Press and hold the start button until the engine fires and then rotate  the mag switch to the 1+2 position

 4- DO NOT STROKE THE THROTTLE.  Leave it alone.

 5- If the engine seems like it is going to die, stroke the primer pump  while it is turned to the right.

 6- Keep the cooling louvers closed of course to expedite engine warm  up.

  

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Scott,

With all due respect, pumping the throttle is not the proper technique to 

solve the lack of fuel problem.  Open the throttle to about 1/4 to 1/3 and 

leave it alone.  Pull the primer out and turn it to the right.  Press and 

hold the Start button.  After it fires, turn the mag switch to 1+2.  If the 

engine starts to die, do not stroke the throttle.  Push the primer pump in 

for the additional fuel.

This is the starting technique that I teach all new Yak owners and it really 

works.

Dennis



---

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Mark- Since I live in New Hampshire where at this time of year 45 degrees is a beach day I can sympathize, all most, with your problem. When I first got my YAK last year, I got it in the dead of the worst winter we had had in quite awhile, below 20 seemed to be the norm. The 7-8 primes are critical when it gets cold

and waiting three to four minutes so the fuel can vaporize. Also make sure you pull the prop through after you prime. I usually pull through one prop for each prime. Finally be ready to prime as the engine fires.



However, I will tell you the fastest way to solve the problem. A heater on your oil tank. At 45 degrees you won't need to plug it in long to get the oil up to a good temp and if you put a blanket over your cowling it will warm the entire engine compartment slightly. I guess the question you have to answer is: are there enough cold mornings/days to make this investment worth while?



I will also say changing over to Dennis Savarese's auto plugs and wires has made a huge difference on how my plane starts in the cold. Much easier and much faster.



Steve Fox

Yak 52

N3043R

http://homepage.mac.com/steve.fox/PhotoAlbum5.html



On Feb 20, 2006, at 10:37 PM, N7092A(at)aol.com (N7092A(at)aol.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Ok this may have been a topic earlier but I am new to the list and a fairly new Yak owner.

  

 Here is the deal,

  

 When the weather dips below 45 degrees it seems it take several times to start the Yak.

  

 I am priming 7 times and pulling it through and another 3 just before start.

 it Kicks over, sputters and then dies, I then have to prime again (not pulling through) about 5 times and then it finally catches and goes after the second to nth time.  Then it will cycle about 5 - 10% for the first minute or two after starting.

  

 In hot weather it usually kicks over in the first rotation and runs fine.

  

 Anybody seen this?  

  

 Mark Merrill

 N7092A YAK-52

 KPAO

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Now this is what this list is for! I have had similar issues and will try the method Dennis mentioned today! Yesterday, I preheated the oil and the engine and gave it some good squitrs...BANG....started right up. OAT 32*

bwalker11(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Very correct Dennis,

I would add that the accelerator pump in the carborator will put excess fuel 

in the carborator inlet  if you over work the throttle which, if a 

successful start is not accomplished will result in fuel dripping out of the 

carborator throat.  Add a little fire from the stacks and you have yourself 

a little situation.  Someone off to the side yells fire and you hit the 

starter button again only to discover that with that cold engine you have 

depleted your air supply to the point that the engine won't turn over and 

suck or blow the fire out, now you have a bigger problem.  Ask Elizabeth 

about it at Waycross the year before last,  she bailed out of  the back seat 

of the same plane twice in a row - the second time with amazing speed.

BW

---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

1)  First rule I've found for starting both the M14P and the Housai is

the prime 1 pump for every 10 deg C below 100.

2)  I usually pull the prop through, then prime, then start.  Except

when cold.  Where I'll pull the prop through, Prime/pull blade for 4

blades (2 blade prop) 6 blades (3 blade prop).  By the time I'm done

prime/prop, back in the airplane and strapped in, I'm ready to

continue....BTW, any more priming then that and you are venting fuel to

the exhaust since you have completed a full rotation of the engine.

3)  I DON"T recommend moving the throttle, but will prime with the rest

of the prime shots required for #1 above. 

4)  Hit start, as engine fires move mag to 1+2 (M14P), hold only another

revolution or two of the prop after starting...

5)  Prime as required to keep it started.

It usually only takes 1-2 attempts to get the engine started.  I'm more

worried about over priming and starting an intake fire then having to

start the engine again so I'm conservative on priming.

DaBear

Stephen Fox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mark- 

 Since I live in New Hampshire where at this time of year 45 degrees is

 a beach day I can sympathize, all most, with your problem. When I

 first got my YAK last year, I got it in the dead of the worst winter

 we had had in quite awhile, below 20 seemed to be the norm. The 7-8

 primes are critical when it gets cold

 and waiting three to four minutes so the fuel can vaporize. Also make

 sure you pull the prop through after you prime. I usually pull through

 one prop for each prime. Finally be ready to prime as the engine fires.

 However, I will tell you the fastest way to solve the problem. A

 heater on your oil tank. At 45 degrees you won't need to plug it in

 long to get the oil up to a good temp and if you put a blanket over

 your cowling it will warm the entire engine compartment slightly. I

 guess the question you have to answer is: are there enough cold

 mornings/days to make this investment worth while?

 I will also say changing over to Dennis Savarese's auto plugs and

 wires has made a huge difference on how my plane starts in the cold.

 Much easier and much faster.

 Steve Fox

 Yak 52

 N3043R

 http://homepage.mac.com/steve.fox/PhotoAlbum5.html

 On Feb 20, 2006, at 10:37 PM, N7092A(at)aol.com <mailto:N7092A(at)aol.com>

 wrote:

> Ok this may have been a topic earlier but I am new to the list and a

> fairly new Yak owner.

>  

> Here is the deal,

>  

> When the weather dips below 45 degrees it seems it take several times

> to start the Yak.

>  

> I am priming 7 times and pulling it through and another 3 just before

> start.

> it Kicks over, sputters and then dies, I then have to prime again

> (not pulling through) about 5 times and then it finally catches and

> goes after the second to nth time.  Then it will cycle about 5 - 10%

> for the first minute or two after starting.

>  

> In hot weather it usually kicks over in the first rotation and runs fine.

>  

> Anybody seen this? 

>  

> Mark Merrill

> N7092A YAK-52

> KPAO

>  

>  

>

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

N7092A(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks Brian,

 

 I had a 182 that acted like this and adding more prime was the answer, I

 just wasn't sure with the M14. 

 

 I also have been holding the starter down for a few turns but it doesn't

 seem to help other than drain the air.


	


Nope, it won't. If the engine doesn't fire in three blades, you are just

wasting your air.



If you prime the engine properly it will fire right up. If it is cold

you may need to keep pumping primer in to keep it running. As the engine

warms a little the fuel will vaporize more readily and will keep running

without the additional fuel.



The only time extra cranking will help is if you have flooded the engine

and you are trying to get more air through there in order to get the

over-rich mixture in the cylinders lean enough to burn.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

flyncatfish(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Mark: 



You might also want to read Lt. Phil Webb's cold

weather Yak starting story as well.  After reading

this story I always check and make sure I have a fire

extinquisher nearby at startup - especially on cold

days.  



http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/jun03/Tales.htm



Greg Arnold

Yak 52 N624PT



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 

http://mail.yahoo.com

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Steve  Fox is correct about the benefits of a insulating cover for the cowl and a small  heat source, even something as small as a "Easy Heat" pad.  I recently  purchased several of the stock Chinese insulated cowl blankets which are  sewn to form fit over the cowl, blocking off the entire gill area and covering  all the cowls.  The temp gains inside with just the small heat pad on  the oil tank were remarkable.  The only down side is that if your aircraft  is a greasy mess the fabric will soon soak up the oil.    

  

 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp   [quote]   --

shinden33(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

WRT adding prime during start - I have tried this method and it just does

not work.  Maybe my airplane's just cranky but it has zero effect mainly

because there is not enough time for the primer to fill before the start

attempt is over.  The only option would be to fill the primer prior to

start.  I don't think that's the best plan.  As far a as putting excess full

into the carb, I would not recommend flailing on the throttle.   I

essentially use it as a the primer.



S



--

jsfox(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

On Feb 21, 2006, at 11:04 AM, doug sapp wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The only down side is that if your aircraft is a greasy mess the fabric will soon soak up the oil.  	




This is not a problem for the Fox boys. Our mother taught us - never put it away dirty!

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Possibly another reason for having a fire guard as you did (at) Waycross after

the first time. Or atleast have an extinguisher avialable nearby.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Bill Walker <bwalker11(at)charter.net>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/21/2006 8:35:43 AM

 Subject: Re: Starting the -52 in cold weather



 



 Very correct Dennis,

 I would add that the accelerator pump in the carborator will put excess

fuel 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   in the carborator inlet  if you over work the throttle which, if a 

 successful start is not accomplished will result in fuel dripping out of

the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   carborator throat.  Add a little fire from the stacks and you have

yourself 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   a little situation.  Someone off to the side yells fire and you hit the 

 starter button again only to discover that with that cold engine you have 

 depleted your air supply to the point that the engine won't turn over and 

 suck or blow the fire out, now you have a bigger problem.  Ask Elizabeth 

 about it at Waycross the year before last,  she bailed out of  the back

seat 
	


[quote] of the same plane twice in a row - the second time with amazing speed.

 BW

 ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

 

  

 



  

  	  Quote: 	
		    stock Chinese insulated cowl blankets which are sewn to form fit over the cowl, blocking off the entire gill area and covering all the cowls.  The temp gains inside with just the small heat pad on the oil tank were remarkable.  The only down side is that if your aircraft is a greasy mess the fabric will soon soak up the oil.   

  

 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp   	  Quote: 	
		   Another thing that can aid in warming the engine is a $25 hair dryer hung inbetween the gills infront of the oil sump for 20-30 min. 

 Doc

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

After being  in the aircraft salvage business for over 20 years and personally recovering  hundreds of aircraft from just every conceivable position and environment,   some of the ones that stick in my mind the most were the fires caused by a el  cheapo heat sources.  It seems wondrous to me that anyone would heat a 100K  aircraft with a questionable heat source unless they were standing by with an  extinguisher close at hand (as I as sure you were).  I once salvaged what  was left of a brand new Cessna 185 on floats which burnt to the floor pan  because of a hair dryer left in the engine compartment while the owner went for  coffee while it warmed the engine.  It turns out that a hair dryer is  designed to live in free air, the air around it cools the plastic housing.   Left in a enclosed space the plastic soon melts and the whole thing  ignites.  I'm not saying don't do it, I am say that if you do use household  heating units of any kind they need to be watched VERY carefully.  Heck in  -50 F, up in northern Saskatchewan we put diesel (gelled because of the temps)  and avgas in a 5 gallon can with sawdust.  This whole thing was placed  under the canvas draped cowl of the Norseman on skis.  The oil was  drained after each flight and kept in the heated line shack, when added to the  pre heated engine, she fired up every time.    By the way, this  same aircraft, CF-SAM now hangs in the museum in Moose Jaw Saskatchewan, on her  original skis, complete with artic cabin heater and cold weather  gear.  A true icon of the early days of bush flying in Northern  Canada.

  

 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp  [quote]   --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Starting the -52 in cold weather

Doug,

 I stand corrected to a degree. 

 I personally place the unit not all the way into the front cowling, but where the warm air can blow thru the louvers into the arear around the oil sump. It only gets cold enough down here in lower Alabama a few days out of the year to really need to warm the engine. I do not wonder to far off will it is running. Generally all it takes is running it while I'm adding oil, MMO, ect.

  I would never walk off an leave a device like that unattended. 

 Thanks for the concern,

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

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