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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 2:59:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | " If we give you the part free, have the salesman shot, have the manager
castrated and give you a million dollars, would you be happy?" |
Hello Doug,
Yes, I'm very familiar with that sign. My father ran an auto parts business for 42 years in Atlanta and I worked for him as a teenager until I went off to college. I'm certainly not new to experimental aviation, either. I've been an avid pilot for nigh onto 30 years now and I've flown over 50 designs and owned over a dozen different aircraft, including several experimental's. The Europa I built isn't my first indulgence into the experimental world, and the good Lord willing, it won't be my last. I don't want anything for free, and certainly nothing at the expense of the dealers, nor do I want anybody killed or castrated. All I want is Jabiru Ltd to honor THEIR warranty on a legitimate warranty claim. Hell, at this point, I'd be somewhat satisfied if somebody from the factory would at least take the time to comment on it. I've inquired at least 6 times over the past year and a half to my dealer and have never, ever gotten a response as to the disposition of the parts I sent back. Do you not find that troubling, Doug?
Between growing up around my father's business, running two very successful engineering businesses of my own for 18 years, plus being half owner of a fairly sizable ultralight dealership in Atlanta for nine years in the 80's, I also know what customer service, honoring warranties and doing the right thing is all about. It's commonly referred to as "ethical business practice," Doug. Ethical business practice does not include ignoring your customers legitimate warranty claims in hopes that they will just go away.
At this point, I'm all but certain that Jabiru isn't going to make good on my claim. I came to that realization over six months ago. I also realize that it's clear that none of their dealers are going to be able to rectify this situation with the factory, essentially because, from my vantage point, it appears all too clear that Jabiru doesn't give a damn about their customers once the check clears. I also don't expect the dealers to dig into their pocket and pay for these failed parts, but apparently Jabiru does. I'm over being mad about it. I'm even beyond being frustrated about it anymore. Pull up any of my previous posts on the Matronics Europa forum regarding this engine and you will see I've been very complimentary about this engine. You should also know that I'm one of, if not the first person in the world to make a Jabiru engine work and work successfully in a Europa. Maybe you weren't aware of that, Doug.
My purpose in posting my story is to let everybody know who and what they are dealing with if they choose to do business with these folks. My story is not an isolated event, Doug, despite what Pete says his experience has been. It has become quite apparent to me that many others have had far worse situations go ignored by Jabiru as my e-mail in-box has been filled daily with numerous unsolicited messages from other Jab owners all over the world relating their tales of woe since I originally posted my story here. And, this is the sleepy Jab forum, Doug. I can only imagine what kind of response I'd get if I had posted my story on the Yahoo Jabiru engine forum or on the Yahoo Sonex list which are both far more active lists. Maybe I'll try that and see what happens. There are a hell of a lot more folks out there who have been treated in the same manner as I have than I was ever aware of prior to purchasing my engine and had I known that beforehand, I'm sure I would have gone elsewhere. It's a bit late for that now, though.
One thing really does trouble me, though, Doug. It's responses from people like you who try to make this mess out to be my fault and just want me to tuck my tail and go away quietly. I've gotten a small number of messages, both on the forum and in my e-mail, that, much like your message, lend support to Jabiru in regard to the way I've and others have been treated by them. Folks like you want me to just write off $400+ worth of failed parts that should have been fully covered by my warranty. Instead, you just want me to go away quietly. I suppose it's an easy thing for you to dismiss when it's not parts on your own engine that failed in the warranty period; parts that were apparently known to have a high failure rate and were ultimately replaced by the factory on other engines. I guess it's no issue to you that the failure of these known bad parts could have killed me when they failed, Doug. I certainly wouldn't want to see you have an ignition failure on your engine in flight like I did. I was fortunate that I had at least one of the "good" coils installed at the time and was able to limp home to safety. I shudder to think what might have happened if I'd have had total ignition failure. Maybe this is something you should consider for a few moments before you try to shoot the messenger, my friend.
Pete offered to help get my coils and my OP sensor replaced under warranty IF I send them back to him. For that gesture, I thank him kindly. However, I cannot send these parts to him because I no longer have them. These parts have already been sent back to Jabiru, via Suncoast, for warranty replacement A YEAR AND A HALF AGO! I suppose you missed that part in my previous post? I also took responsibility for not asking the girl at Jabiru USA what price they wanted for the used coil the sent me on May 15, 2006. I suppose you missed that part, too, huh, Doug?
After being a Rotax dealer for a number of years and having sold several hundred engines in the ultralight heydays, I know I would have never sold a part that had been run a significant amount of time on another customer's engine and then charged for it as if it were new. We would have loaned the customer the used part and swapped it out for a new one when the new parts arrived, but that's just the way we treated our customers and we did that sort of thing many times over the years to keep folks flying and happy. Perhaps you think that is okay to charge full retail for used parts since it's my engine we're talking about here. Somehow, I'd think you'd sing a different tune if it were you were charged full retail for what was clearly a well used part for your own engine. Then again, maybe not.
So, "what more can Jabiru do?" How about honoring their warranty, even at this late date, Doug? I'm only asking them to honor the warranty that Jabiru themselves wrote and included with my engine. That warranty includes ignition coils and OP sensors, doesn't it? I sure don't see anything in my warranty that excludes these parts. Is that too much to ask, Doug? Is that too difficult for you to understand? It's a simple concept, really. If they're not going to honor their warranty, why do they even bother to include it with the engine? Why don't they respond to MULTIPLE DIRECT INQUIRIES about my parts, Doug? I did EXACTLY what I was asked to do with the failed parts and apparently Jabiru won't even take the time to respond to their own dealer, Doug. I mean, really, we're only talking about that little $15,000 fan up front that keeps us alive when we fly, right?
If you read his last post carefully, Doug, according to what Pete said, Jabiru apparently had a problem with a certain type of coil used on 3300's about the same time my engine, #756, was manufactured, circa 2003-2004, and, apparently, they have indeed replaced coils from that era under warranty. That was the first time I'd heard anything remotely like that from a Jab representative. Those coils, according to Pete, were "Leading GX" coils. Now, I don't know whether or not I had those coils installed on my engine originally because no one has been able to tell me exactly how to identify them. I do know that the replacements I purchased were considerably different from what came on the engine. I can't find any documentation on the Jabiru factory website that says anything about these coils, either, Doug. Perhaps you know where I could find this info and maybe could point me to it? Maybe there's an answer I've missed out there somewhere? You seem to know what is going on here. How about enlightening me? If I'm wrong, I'll scream my apologies from the rafters loud enough for all to hear. I'm an adult and I make mistakes all the time and I admit that I'm not perfect. As I've said, I really, really like my engine. I just don't care for the unprofessional way I've been treated by the factory.
I do have two very nice side by side pictures of my old and new coils and those pictures clearly show that these two coils are not the same part, not even close. Would you like to see these pictures and make a determination for yourself, Doug? I sent the pictures of my coils to Suncoast and he didn't respond to my specific inquiry about the coils or subsequent follow up's beyond saying he'd sent the parts back to the factory and he'd not heard anything from them. Andy never once made any mention of "Leading GX" coils and their replacement. I also e-mailed these pictures directly to the factory on THREE separate occasions and got absolutely no response. I offered to send the pictures of my coils to Pete a couple of days ago right here on this forum, but so far he hasn't indicated he wants to see them. I didn't buy my engine from Pete, so I don't expect him to "bend over backwards" to clean up this mess, although I do appreciate his offer of assistance.
I don't know whether or not had the "Leading GX" coils installed on my engine because I can't get an answer one way or the other out of anybody. I would hope that a serious engine manufacturer would keep records on what specific outside vendor parts are installed on each specific engine and as such it should be easy to determine what was origially installed. I know for certain that Rotax keeps records like that. In case you aren't aware, most serious manufacturers, engine and otherwise, do keep such records, Doug. Wouldn't it be nice if somebody in the know associated with Jabiru would, at the very least, take a 20 seconds to look at my coil pictures and tell me whether or not they were the suspect "Leading GX" coils? That seems to be a reasonable request, doesn't it, Doug? I don't know, maybe I'm barking at the moon here, and apparently, according to you I am, but it sure sounds like a reasonable request to me! If my original coils were the "Leading GX" coils with known issues, why were they not promptly replaced when my dealer sent them back to the factory, Doug? Ditto the OP sensor? Why can't my dealer get answers from the factory to these questions, Doug? Pete said in his last post that he's been able to get several of those bad OP sensors replaced under warranty. Why was mine REPEATEDLY ignored? Inconsistency is not a virtue, Doug, especially when it comes to aircraft engines! It should have been a no-brainer, don't you think? All of this could have been avoided if Jabiru would just cough up an answer the warranty claim I've made. Instead they've not only choosen to ignore one of their major dealers, in fact their OEM distrubutor for the USA, and also one of their otherwise satisfied customers, too. Why won't anybody even bother to take the time to look at the pictures and offer a comment, Doug, if the customer service they offer is so damned good? As I said before, let the buyer beware!
You know, Doug, if you don't like what I'm posting here, you ought to know you don't have to read it. That's what delete buttons are for. Some folks are indeed interested, though, Doug, particularly the ones who are, at this very moment, deciding what engine to buy or not buy for their project. The volume of messages in my in-box regarding this issue supports the notion that many folks are indeed interested in this topic and many have had far worse problems under warranty that have gone unresolved by Jabiru, Simply because you are not interested and as such seek to launch an ad hominem attack against me in a weak effort toss this problem back into my lap and make it look like my fault that the factory refuses honor my warranty says a lot about you and your character, partner.
I'm not going away and I'm not going to be quiet until this issue is resolved, Doug. Get used to it or find the delete button on your keyboard. I sincerely hope you don't have to go through what I and others have had to go through with Jabiru and their fake warranty and I really, really hope that you don't ever have to experience an ignition failure in flight. It's a truly terrifying experience, even for a high time pilot like myself.
Have a wonderful day!
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
See what's n="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
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craig(at)craigr.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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| Quote: | " If we give you the part free, have the salesman shot, have the manager
castrated and give you a million dollars, would you be happy?" |
No.
This attitude is typical in companies that have no customer service ethic at all. They view all complaints as irrational. There ARE irrational complaints (I've both made them and received them) but they're in the minority. When a business focusses on the small number of irrational complaints to the point where it hangs a sign making it sound like *all* complaints are irrational, then you can bet they're not going to listen to you when you have a legitimate complaint.
If I saw this sign hanging in any company with which I did business, I'd take my money somewhere else.
John's making a great point with his warranty experience and his complaint is far from irrational. In fact his demands are surprisingly reasonable and his attitude demonstrates a depth of character and wisdom that is rare in our litigious society.
Craig
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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I am going to post a response to both John and Craig as well as the listserve, so I have put them both together for a reference.
The point the quote below that preceeds Craig's post is trying to make (using sarcasm) is that people want more than either the money or the part. Viewing the issue from my perspective, the only thing John can rationally get is either the parts or the money. I understand that he wants an explanation, but in my opinion, the real case is that he is dissatisfied with the explanation he received. For example, Pete explained that the three Jabiru dealers in the USA ARE the face of Jabiru. John wants "the factory" to explain to him what the dealers either cannot or have not. That is not going to happen for a whole set of pragmatic reasons.
In my mind, there is no question that John is past rational and well into emotional. (I would not say he is irrational) He has demanded satisfaction and not received it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt if the Jabiru warrantee guarantees satisfaction. Yes, he is satisfied with the product, but not satisfied with certain events that preceeded. His plane is flying well now and the Jabiru engine is performing as advertised, which he has pointed out.
I am simply raising two questions. 1) What is it (money or parts) that Jabiru should do to make good on their warrantee? 2) If they did that (again it would be their dealers doing that) would he be satisfied?
I would just comment that money or parts can be obtained. Engines can be fixed. Feelings, impressions, and emotional responses are much more difficult. My suspicions are that no matter WHAT Jabiru does, John will not feel like they honored their warrantee. In short, perhaps there is no remedy possible THAT WILL SATISFY JOHN. I under stand that. I have felt the same way myself on occasion.
I have no doubt that out of more than 1,000 Jabiru engines sold in the USA that at least 1% of the owners would be unhappy about something. Stating the obvious, the engine design is a low-production volume, experimental, continously improving machine. IN MY OPINION, the expectations of some people will not be realized under those circumstances.
I do appreciate John's point of view and his explanations. I just want to offer some perspective and critique of them. Your milage may vary.
Doug Koenigsberg
| Quote: | " If we give you the part free, have the salesman shot, have the manager
castrated and give you a million dollars, would you be happy?" |
No.
This attitude is typical in companies that have no customer service ethic at all. They view all complaints as irrational. There ARE irrational complaints (I've both made them and received them) but they're in the minority. When a business focusses on the small number of irrational complaints to the point where it hangs a sign making it sound like *all* complaints are irrational, then you can bet they're not going to listen to you when you have a legitimate complaint.
If I saw this sign hanging in any company with which I did business, I'd take my money somewhere else.
John's making a great point with his warranty experience and his complaint is far from irrational. In fact his demands are surprisingly reasonable and his attitude demonstrates a depth of character and wisdom that is rare in our litigious society.
Craig
In a message dated 10/3/2007 11:44:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Hell, at this point, I'd be somewhat satisfied if somebody from the factory would at least take the time to comment on it. I've inquired at least 6 times over the past year and a half to my dealer and have never, ever gotten a response as to the disposition of the parts I sent back. Do you not find that troubling, Doug?
Between growing up around my father's business, running two very successful engineering businesses of my own for 18 years, plus being half owner of a fairly sizable ultralight dealership in Atlanta for nine years in the 80's, I also know what customer service, honoring warranties and doing the right thing is all about. It's commonly referred to as "ethical business practice," Doug. Ethical business practice does not include ignoring your customers legitimate warranty claims in hopes that they will just go away.
At this point, I'm all but certain that Jabiru isn't going to make good on my claim. I came to that realization over six months ago. I also realize that it's clear that none of their dealers are going to be able to rectify this situation with the factory, essentially because, from my vantage point, it appears all too clear that Jabiru doesn't give a damn about their customers once the check clears. I also don't expect the dealers to dig into their pocket and pay for these failed parts, but apparently Jabiru does. I'm over being mad about it. I'm even beyond being frustrated about it anymore. Pull up any of my previous posts on the Matronics Europa forum regarding this engine and you will see I've been very complimentary about this engine. You should also know that I'm one of, if not the first person in the world to make a Jabiru engine work and work successfully in a Europa. Maybe you weren't aware of that, Doug.
My purpose in posting my story is to let everybody know who and what they are dealing with if they choose to do business with these folks. My story is not an isolated event, Doug, despite what Pete says his experience has been. It has become quite apparent to me that many others have had far worse situations go ignored by Jabiru as my e-mail in-box has been filled daily with numerous unsolicited messages from other Jab owners all over the world relating their tales of woe since I originally posted my story here. And, this is the sleepy Jab forum, Doug. I can only imagine what kind of response I'd get if I had posted my story on the Yahoo Jabiru engine forum or on the Yahoo Sonex list which are both far more active lists. Maybe I'll try that and see what happens. There are a hell of a lot more folks out there who have been treated in the same manner as I have than I was ever aware of prior to purchasing my engine and had I known that beforehand, I'm sure I would have gone elsewhere. It's a bit late for that now, though.
One thing really does trouble me, though, Doug. It's responses from people like you who try to make this mess out to be my fault and just want me to tuck my tail and go away quietly. I've gotten a small number of messages, both on the forum and in my e-mail, that, much like your message, lend support to Jabiru in regard to the way I've and others have been treated by them. Folks like you want me to just write off $400+ worth of failed parts that should have been fully covered by my warranty. Instead, you just want me to go away quietly. I suppose it's an easy thing for you to dismiss when it's not parts on your own engine that failed in the warranty period; parts that were apparently known to have a high failure rate and were ultimately replaced by the factory on other engines. I guess it's no issue to you that the failure of these known bad parts could have killed me when they failed, Doug. I certainly wouldn't want to see you have an ignition failure on your engine in flight like I did. I was fortunate that I had at least one of the "good" coils installed at the time and was able to limp home to safety. I shudder to think what might have happened if I'd have had total ignition failure. Maybe this is something you should consider for a few moments before you try to shoot the messenger, my friend.
Pete offered to help get my coils and my OP sensor replaced under warranty IF I send them back to him. For that gesture, I thank him kindly. However, I cannot send these parts to him because I no longer have them. These parts have already been sent back to Jabiru, via Suncoast, for warranty replacement A YEAR AND A HALF AGO! I suppose you missed that part in my previous post? I also took responsibility for not asking the girl at Jabiru USA what price they wanted for the used coil the sent me on May 15, 2006. I suppose you missed that part, too, huh, Doug?
After being a Rotax dealer for a number of years and having sold several hundred engines in the ultralight heydays, I know I would have never sold a part that had been run a significant amount of time on another customer's engine and then charged for it as if it were new. We would have loaned the customer the used part and swapped it out for a new one when the new parts arrived, but that's just the way we treated our customers and we did that sort of thing many times over the years to keep folks flying and happy. Perhaps you think that is okay to charge full retail for used parts since it's my engine we're talking about here. Somehow, I'd think you'd sing a different tune if it were you were charged full retail for what was clearly a well used part for your own engine. Then again, maybe not.
So, "what more can Jabiru do?" How about honoring their warranty, even at this late date, Doug? I'm only asking them to honor the warranty that Jabiru themselves wrote and included with my engine. That warranty includes ignition coils and OP sensors, doesn't it? I sure don't see anything in my warranty that excludes these parts. Is that too much to ask, Doug? Is that too difficult for you to understand? It's a simple concept, really. If they're not going to honor their warranty, why do they even bother to include it with the engine? Why don't they respond to MULTIPLE DIRECT INQUIRIES about my parts, Doug? I did EXACTLY what I was asked to do with the failed parts and apparently Jabiru won't even take the time to respond to their own dealer, Doug. I mean, really, we're only talking about that little $15,000 fan up front that keeps us alive when we fly, right?
If you read his last post carefully, Doug, according to what Pete said, Jabiru apparently had a problem with a certain type of coil used on 3300's about the same time my engine, #756, was manufactured, circa 2003-2004, and, apparently, they have indeed replaced coils from that era under warranty. That was the first time I'd heard anything remotely like that from a Jab representative. Those coils, according to Pete, were "Leading GX" coils. Now, I don't know whether or not I had those coils installed on my engine originally because no one has been able to tell me exactly how to identify them. I do know that the replacements I purchased were considerably different from what came on the engine. I can't find any documentation on the Jabiru factory website that says anything about these coils, either, Doug. Perhaps you know where I could find this info and maybe could point me to it? Maybe there's an answer I've missed out there somewhere? You seem to know what is going on here. How about enlightening me? If I'm wrong, I'll scream my apologies from the rafters loud enough for all to hear. I'm an adult and I make mistakes all the time and I admit that I'm not perfect. As I've said, I really, really like my engine. I just don't care for the unprofessional way I've been treated by the factory.
I do have two very nice side by side pictures of my old and new coils and those pictures clearly show that these two coils are not the same part, not even close. Would you like to see these pictures and make a determination for yourself, Doug? I sent the pictures of my coils to Suncoast and he didn't respond to my specific inquiry about the coils or subsequent follow up's beyond saying he'd sent the parts back to the factory and he'd not heard anything from them. Andy never once made any mention of "Leading GX" coils and their replacement. I also e-mailed these pictures directly to the factory on THREE separate occasions and got absolutely no response. I offered to send the pictures of my coils to Pete a couple of days ago right here on this forum, but so far he hasn't indicated he wants to see them. I didn't buy my engine from Pete, so I don't expect him to "bend over backwards" to clean up this mess, although I do appreciate his offer of assistance.
I don't know whether or not had the "Leading GX" coils installed on my engine because I can't get an answer one way or the other out of anybody. I would hope that a serious engine manufacturer would keep records on what specific outside vendor parts are installed on each specific engine and as such it should be easy to determine what was origially installed. I know for certain that Rotax keeps records like that. In case you aren't aware, most serious manufacturers, engine and otherwise, do keep such records, Doug. Wouldn't it be nice if somebody in the know associated with Jabiru would, at the very least, take a 20 seconds to look at my coil pictures and tell me whether or not they were the suspect "Leading GX" coils? That seems to be a reasonable request, doesn't it, Doug? I don't know, maybe I'm barking at the moon here, and apparently, according to you I am, but it sure sounds like a reasonable request to me! If my original coils were the "Leading GX" coils with known issues, why were they not promptly replaced when my dealer sent them back to the factory, Doug? Ditto the OP sensor? Why can't my dealer get answers from the factory to these questions, Doug? Pete said in his last post that he's been able to get several of those bad OP sensors replaced under warranty. Why was mine REPEATEDLY ignored? Inconsistency is not a virtue, Doug, especially when it comes to aircraft engines! It should have been a no-brainer, don't you think? All of this could have been avoided if Jabiru would just cough up an answer the warranty claim I've made. Instead they've not only choosen to ignore one of their major dealers, in fact their OEM distrubutor for the USA, and also one of their otherwise satisfied customers, too. Why won't anybody even bother to take the time to look at the pictures and offer a comment, Doug, if the customer service they offer is so damned good? As I said before, let the buyer beware!
You know, Doug, if you don't like what I'm posting here, you ought to know you don't have to read it. That's what delete buttons are for. Some folks are indeed interested, though, Doug, particularly the ones who are, at this very moment, deciding what engine to buy or not buy for their project. The volume of messages in my in-box regarding this issue supports the notion that many folks are indeed interested in this topic and many have had far worse problems under warranty that have gone unresolved by Jabiru, Simply because you are not interested and as such seek to launch an ad hominem attack against me in a weak effort toss this problem back into my lap and make it look like my fault that the factory refuses honor my warranty says a lot about you and your character, partner.
I'm not going away and I'm not going to be quiet until this issue is resolved, Doug. Get used to it or find the delete button on your keyboard. I sincerely hope you don't have to go through what I and others have had to go through with Jabiru and their fake warranty and I really, really hope that you don't ever have to experience an ignition failure in flight. It's a truly terrifying experience, even for a high time pilot like myself.
Have a wonderful day!
Regards,
John Lawton
Whitwell, TN (TN89)
Europa N245E - Flying
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See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
[quote][b]
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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Thanks for a somewhat long but very good tale of your trials with Jabiru. I had my own issues with the CDN Jabiru dealer, and had decided against Jabiru based on their actions. I'm glad they never got my check I suppose they might be also. It took a long time for the Japanese to build a truly professional dealer network for their products, and that's a large market. In the case of experimental aircraft engines it may never happen.
From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com (TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com)
[quote] To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Jabiru Coils
In a message dated 10/3/2007 2:59:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
Hello Doug,
Yes, I'm very familiar with that sign. My father ran an auto parts business for 42 years in Atlanta and I worked for him as a teenager until I went off to college. I'm certainly not new to experimental aviation, either. I've been an avid pilot for nigh onto 30 years now and I've flown over 50 designs and owned over a dozen different aircraft, including several
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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Doug, I don't think he recieved either parts or money. I think he sent the parts in for a warranty claim and got no replacement or even a response stating why they wouldn't be replacing the coils. Yes, It appears he was offered a couple hundred dollars, far short of his actual expense to replace parts that should have been covered. It appears fairly simple to me. Jabiru is ignoring him and their warranty altogether. The dealer seems interested in trying to make good in some respect, and it's in their interest to do so, but it's Jabiru who should respond in some way. A pair of new coils and a short apology for the delay would cost them very little either in cash or ego.
[quote] ---
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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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Your pictures have not been looked at nor requested because pete and a few of our pilots are out on the road at airshows all week.
Nick
Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] I am going to post a response to both John and Craig as well as the listserve, so I have put them both together for a reference.
The point the quote below that preceeds Craig's post is trying to make (using sarcasm) is that people want more than either the money or the part. Viewing the issue from my perspective, the only thing John can rationally get is either the parts or the money. I understand that he wants an explanation, but in my opinion, the real case is that he is dissatisfied with the explanation he received. For example, Pete explained that the three Jabiru dealers in the USA ARE the face of Jabiru. John wants "the factory" to explain to him what the dealers either cannot or have not. That is not going to happen for a whole set of pragmatic reasons.
In my mind, there is no question that John is past rational and well into emotional. (I would not say he is irrational) He has demanded satisfaction and not received it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt if the Jabiru warrantee guarantees satisfaction. Yes, he is satisfied with the product, but not satisfied with certain events that preceeded. His plane is flying well now and the Jabiru engine is performing as advertised, which he has pointed out.
I am simply raising two questions. 1) What is it (money or parts) that Jabiru should do to make good on their warrantee? 2) If they did that (again it would be their dealers doing that) would he be satisfied?
I would just comment that money or parts can be obtained. Engines can be fixed. Feelings, impressions, and emotional responses are much more difficult. My suspicions are that no matter WHAT Jabiru does, John will not feel like they honored their warrantee. In short, perhaps there is no remedy possible THAT WILL SATISFY JOHN. I under stand that. I have felt the same way myself on occasion.
I have no doubt that out of more than 1,000 Jabiru engines sold in the USA that at least 1% of the owners would be unhappy about something. Stating the obvious, the engine design is a low-production volume, experimental, continously improving machine. IN MY OPINION, the expectations of some people will not be realized under those circumstances.
I do appreciate John's point of view and his explanations. I just want to offer some perspective and critique of them. Your milage may vary.
Doug Koenigsberg
| Quote: | " If we give you the part free, have the salesman shot, have the manager
castrated and give you a million dollars, would you be happy?" |
No.
This attitude is typical in companies that have no customer service ethic at all. They view all complaints as irrational. There ARE irrational complaints (I've both made them and received them) but they're in the minority. When a business focusses on the small number of irrational complaints to the point where it hangs a sign making it sound like *all* complaints are irrational, then you can bet they're not going to listen to you when you have a legitimate complaint.
If I saw this sign hanging in any company with which I did business, I'd take my money somewhere else.
John's making a great point with his warranty experience and his complaint is far from irrational. In fact his demands are surprisingly reasonable and his attitude demonstrates a depth of character and wisdom that is rare in our litigious society.
Craig
In a message dated 10/3/2007 11:44:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Hell, at this point, I'd be somewhat satisfied if somebody from the factory would at least take the time to comment on it. I've inquired at least 6 times over the past year and a half to my dealer and have never, ever gotten a response as to the disposition of the parts I sent back. Do you not find that troubling, Doug?
Between growing up around my father's business, running two very successful engineering businesses of my own for 18 years, plus being half owner of a fairly sizable ultralight dealership in Atlanta for nine years in the 80's, I also know what customer service, honoring warranties and doing the right thing is all about. It's commonly referred to as "ethical business practice," Doug. Ethical business practice does not include ignoring your customers legitimate warranty claims in hopes that they will just go away.
At this point, I'm all but certain that Jabiru isn't going to make good on my claim. I came to that realization over six months ago. I also realize that it's clear that none of their dealers are going to be able to rectify this situation with the factory, essentially because, from my vantage point, it appears all too clear that Jabiru doesn't give a damn about their customers once the check clears. I also don't expect the dealers to dig into their pocket and pay for these failed parts, but apparently Jabiru does. I'm over being mad about it. I'm even beyond being frustrated about it anymore. Pull up any of my previous posts on the Matronics Europa forum regarding this engine and you will see I've been very complimentary about this engine. You should also know that I'm one of, if not the first person in the world to make a Jabiru engine work and work successfully in a Europa. Maybe you weren't aware of that, Doug.
My purpose in posting my story is to let everybody know who and what they are dealing with if they choose to do business with these folks. My story is not an isolated event, Doug, despite what Pete says his experience has been. It has become quite apparent to me that many others have had far worse situations go ignored by Jabiru as my e-mail in-box has been filled daily with numerous unsolicited messages from other Jab owners all over the world relating their tales of woe since I originally posted my story here. And, this is the sleepy Jab forum, Doug. I can only imagine what kind of response I'd get if I had posted my story on the Yahoo Jabiru engine forum or on the Yahoo Sonex list which are both far more active lists. Maybe I'll try that and see what happens. There are a hell of a lot more folks out there who have been treated in the same manner as I have than I was ever aware of prior to purchasing my engine and had I known that beforehand, I'm sure I would have gone elsewhere. It's a bit late for that now, though.
One thing really does trouble me, though, Doug. It's responses from people like you who try to make this mess out to be my fault and just want me to tuck my tail and go away quietly. I've gotten a small number of messages, both on the forum and in my e-mail, that, much like your message, lend support to Jabiru in regard to the way I've and others have been treated by them. Folks like you want me to just write off $400+ worth of failed parts that should have been fully covered by my warranty. Instead, you just want me to go away quietly. I suppose it's an easy thing for you to dismiss when it's not parts on your own engine that failed in the warranty period; parts that were apparently known to have a high failure rate and were ultimately replaced by the factory on other engines. I guess it's no issue to you that the failure of these known bad parts could have killed me when they failed, Doug. I certainly wouldn't want to see you have an ignition failure on your engine in flight like I did. I was fortunate that I had at least one of the "good" coils installed at the time and was able to limp home to safety. I shudder to think what might have happened if I'd have had total ignition failure. Maybe this is something you should consider for a few moments before you try to shoot the messenger, my friend.
Pete offered to help get my coils and my OP sensor replaced under warranty IF I send them back to him. For that gesture, I thank him kindly. However, I cannot send these parts to him because I no longer have them. These parts have already been sent back to Jabiru, via Suncoast, for warranty replacement A YEAR AND A HALF AGO! I suppose you missed that part in my previous post? I also took responsibility for not asking the girl at Jabiru USA what price they wanted for the used coil the sent me on May 15, 2006. I suppose you missed that part, too, huh, Doug?
After being a Rotax dealer for a number of years and having sold several hundred engines in the ultralight heydays, I know I would have never sold a part that had been run a significant amount of time on another customer's engine and then charged for it as if it were new. We would have loaned the customer the used part and swapped it out for a new one when the new parts arrived, but that's just the way we treated our customers and we did that sort of thing many times over the years to keep folks flying and happy. Perhaps you think that is okay to charge full retail for used parts since it's my engine we're talking about here. Somehow, I'd think you'd sing a different tune if it were you were charged full retail for what was clearly a well used part for your own engine. Then again, maybe not.
So, "what more can Jabiru do?" How about honoring their warranty, even at this late date, Doug? I'm only asking them to honor the warranty that Jabiru themselves wrote and included with my engine. That warranty includes ignition coils and OP sensors, doesn't it? I sure don't see anything in my warranty that excludes these parts. Is that too much to ask, Doug? Is that too difficult for you to understand? It's a simple concept, really. If they're not going to honor their warranty, why do they even bother to include it with the engine? Why don't they respond to MULTIPLE DIRECT INQUIRIES about my parts, Doug? I did EXACTLY what I was asked to do with the failed parts and apparently Jabiru won't even take the time to respond to their own dealer, Doug. I mean, really, we're only talking about that little $15,000 fan up front that keeps us alive when we fly, right?
If you read his last post carefully, Doug, according to what Pete said, Jabiru apparently had a problem with a certain type of coil used on 3300's about the same time my engine, #756, was manufactured, circa 2003-2004, and, apparently, they have indeed replaced coils from that era under warranty. That was the first time I'd heard anything remotely like that from a Jab representative. Those coils, according to Pete, were "Leading GX" coils. Now, I don't know whether or not I had those coils installed on my engine originally because no one has been able to tell me exactly how to identify them. I do know that the replacements I purchased were considerably different from what came on the engine. I can't find any documentation on the Jabiru factory website that says anything about these coils, either, Doug. Perhaps you know where I could find this info and maybe could point me to it? Maybe there's an answer I've missed out there somewhere? You seem to know what is going on here. How about enlightening me? If I'm wrong, I'll scream my apologies from the rafters loud enough for all to hear. I'm an adult and I make mistakes all the time and I admit that I'm not perfect. As I've said, I really, really like my engine. I just don't care for the unprofessional way I've been treated by the factory.
I do have two very nice side by side pictures of my old and new coils and those pictures clearly show that these two coils are not the same part, not even close. Would you like to see these pictures and make a determination for yourself, Doug? I sent the pictures of my coils to Suncoast and he didn't respond to my specific inquiry about the coils or subsequent follow up's beyond saying he'd sent the parts back to the factory and he'd not heard anything from them. Andy never once made any mention of "Leading GX" coils and their replacement. I also e-mailed these pictures directly to the factory on THREE separate occasions and got absolutely no response. I offered to send the pictures of my coils to Pete a couple of days ago right here on this forum, but so far he hasn't indicated he wants to see them. I didn't buy my engine from Pete, so I don't expect him to "bend over backwards" to clean up this mess, although I do appreciate his offer of assistance.
I don't know whether or not had the "Leading GX" coils installed on my engine because I can't get an answer one way or the other out of anybody. I would hope that a serious engine manufacturer would keep records on what specific outside vendor parts are installed on each specific engine and as such it should be easy to determine what was origially installed. I know for certain that Rotax keeps records like that. In case you aren't aware, most serious manufacturers, engine and otherwise, do keep such records, Doug. Wouldn't it be nice if somebody in the know associated with Jabiru would, at the very least, take a 20 seconds to look at my coil pictures and tell me whether or not they were the suspect "Leading GX" coils? That seems to be a reasonable request, doesn't it, Doug? I don't know, maybe I'm barking at the moon here, and apparently, according to you I am, but it sure sounds like a reasonable request to me! If my original coils were the "Leading GX" coils with known issues, why were they not promptly replaced when my dealer sent them back to the factory, Doug? Ditto the OP sensor? Why can't my dealer get answers from the factory to these questions, Doug? Pete said in his last post that he's been able to get several of those bad OP sensors replaced under warranty. Why was mine REPEATEDLY ignored? Inconsistency is not a virtue, Doug, especially when it comes to aircraft engines! It should have been a no-brainer, don't you think? All of this could have been avoided if Jabiru would just cough up an answer the warranty claim I've made. Instead they've not only choosen to ignore one of their major dealers, in fact their OEM distrubutor for the USA, and also one of their otherwise satisfied customers, too. Why won't anybody even bother to take the time to look at the pictures and offer a comment, Doug, if the customer service they offer is so damned good? As I said before, let the buyer beware!
You know, Doug, if you don't like what I'm posting here, you ought to know you don't have to read it. That's what delete buttons are for. Some folks are indeed interested, though, Doug, particularly the ones who are, at this very moment, deciding what engine to buy or not buy for their project. The volume of messages in my in-box regarding this issue supports the notion that many folks are indeed interested in this topic and many have had far worse problems under warranty that have gone unresolved by Jabiru, Simply because you are not interested and as such seek to launch an ad hominem attack against me in a weak effort toss this problem back into my lap and make it look like my fault that the factory refuses honor my warranty says a lot about you and your character, partner.
I'm not going away and I'm not going to be quiet until this issue is resolved, Doug. Get used to it or find the delete button on your keyboard. I sincerely hope you don't have to go through what I and others have had to go through with Jabiru and their fake warranty and I really, really hope that you don't ever have to [quote][b]
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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca writes:
| Quote: | Thanks for a somewhat long but very good tale of your trials with Jabiru. I had my own issues with the CDN Jabiru dealer, and had decided against Jabiru based on their actions. I'm glad they never got my check I suppose they might be also. It took a long time for the Japanese to build a truly professional dealer network for their products, and that's a large market. In the case of experimental aircraft engines it may never happen.
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I can't comment on the CDN dealer, but my understanding is that before Jabiru had it's current 3 dealers in the USA, there was much unhappyness with the single dealer at the time.
Your point about achieving a good dealer network is a good one. My understanding is that the early Jab engines had a number of significant problems. A friend of mine was importing a Canadian two-stoke engine that was very bad. He had a whole workbench full of bad engines and parts. He dropped the line and told me if I ever tried something like that I was crazy!!! Now several years later that same manufacturer is suppling engines for the Mosquito ultralight helicopter. They claimed the engine was working fine.
Some of us remember the early Japanese cars. Hardly the industry leaders they are today.
My opinion is that the current Jabiru dealers in the USA are excellent. The volume of sales they are achieving makes it easy to service their customers well. Of course there are occasional exceptions.
Doug
See what's new a [quote][b]
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Jabiru Coils |
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I won't comment on the CDN dealer either, I assume they are reliable enough to please their customers. I'm not sure what happened in my case. Having more than one would be nice but we are a small market.
[quote] ---
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