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Europa Training Standards

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scrimm

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 81
Location: Gilbert, SC SC99

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

Flight,

  

 In light of all the  recent conversation, I think it would be appropriate for the gathering of named  individuals qualified to give re-current Europa training.  I myself need  someone who is monowheel qualified to do re-current training.  This might  be a list that would be posted on the public side of the Europa Clubs  website.  It also might be an opportunity for training standards to be  developed by this group as it relates to the Europa in it's various  configurations.  We did the same type of thing with the EMS helicopter  industry here in the states when they were suffering from a high accident rate  in the mid 80's, and got the FAA to buy into it before they and the  insurance companies took the issue to extremes.

  

 By having training  standards specific to the Europa we might be able to get in front of any  regulatory or insurance issues and if nothing else have safer more competent  pilots, not implying that we don't already.

  

 Just a though to be  passed around to the group, as our aircraft and pilot numbers grow it can only  be to our advantage.  Besides I was never one to believed you couldn't  teach an old dog new tricks.  During my commercial helicopters years, I  always looked forward to check rides with our most talented instructors because  I always picked up one or two pointers each time as well as reviewing the  standards.

  

 So if you  are on the west side of the pond and interested in doing re-current  monowheel training please contact me off list.

  

 Thanks,

  

 Steve  Crimm

 N42AH 

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
Steve Crimm
N42AH

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Europa Training Standards

Hi All,



John Hurst was the only CFI I knew who actually did sign offs for the

monowheel. He did it in his role as the manager of Europa's office

in the US. He did my tri-gear insurance sign-off in less than an hour.

John is still in the neighborhood, actually at Lockwood in Sebring Fl, but I

think, as they say he would be strongly disinclined to acquiesce to such

a request at the present time.



There are a number of high time monowheel pilots, even airline and

military types out there in mid-Florida, but I just don't recall that any

that were also CFIs.



Who would you have create "official" training standards? Who is in a

position to?



The Europa is an exceedingly easy aircraft to fly except in one variant

and in one phase of flight. I don't believe any reasonable amount of

proficiency training will eliminate all the prop strikes and ground loops

of the monowheel since I have seen it happen to several ATPs.



It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts.

_________________
Ira N224XS

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: Europa Training Standards

On Sunday, June 24, 2007, at 03:09  PM, rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It just seems there is a price to pay for that extra 5 kts.


	


..and the "cool" factor...  



do not archive

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

Venu Rao

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Texas

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Europa Training Standards

Has anyone taken a stab at this? Are there any high time Europa

monowheel pilots in the States who are open to providing some 

of this transition training and/or helping to outline some standards?



Cheers,

Venu

_________________
Venu Rao
Austin, TX
Europa Mono
Builder: Jim Nelson
TTAE 119.1 hrs

asarangan(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

A formal transition training for the Europa is something that is still

sorely lacking. Most pilots seem to jump right into their newly built

Europas with no prior experience. I have taken several demo rides in

the Europa, but I have never touched the controls during takeoffs and

landings. In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland

office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the takeoff

and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a demo,

decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was not

given that opportunity. He is building an RV now. Velocity Aircraft

offers a nice training that includes ground and flight in their factory

aircraft. This is something that the UK factory ought to give some

thought to. It could also be a good source of revenue for them.



--- Venu Rao <venurao(at)mac.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Has anyone taken a stab at this? Are there any high time Europa

 monowheel pilots in the States who are open to providing some 

 of this transition training and/or helping to outline some standards?

 

 Cheers,

 Venu

 

 --------

 Venu Rao

 058 - Europa XS Monowheel

 Builder: Jim Nelson

 150 hrs

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140020#140020

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

Andrew Sarangan a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland

 office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the takeoff

 and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a demo,

 decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was not

 given that opportunity.


	


Andrew and all,



I'm a bit surprised.

Why would a demopilot or instructor *not* offer to fly the airplane from 

startup to landing ?

I understand your friend : I also would be wary of an airplane I'm not 

allowed to take off and land.

My first answer when asked about a particular model is, fly the airplane 

before making any decisions.



What was wrong with that particular airplane (or demo pilot ))

Best regards,

-- 

Gilles Thesee

http://contrails.free.fr

asarangan(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: Europa Training Standards

I was surprised too. My first ride was with Bob Berube when he used to

work for Europa. Second ride was with Jim Thursby (if I recall

correctly). Both times I handled the controls once we were in the air,

but relinquished the controls for takeoff and landing. As a flight

instructor I know that it takes some training experience to let someone

else do the takeoff and landing, especially in a aircraft that could

ground loop. Even though I am building a monowheel I have never

experienced its ground handling. And I know I am not the only one.

--- Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

 Andrew Sarangan a écrit :

 > In fact, when I took the first demo ride at the then Lakeland

 > office, I was surprised that I was not offered to handle the

 takeoff

 > and landing. One of my friends who also went to Lakeland for a

 demo,

 > decided to not buy the Europa solely based on the fact that he was

 not

 > given that opportunity.

 Andrew and all,

 I'm a bit surprised.

 Why would a demopilot or instructor *not* offer to fly the airplane

 from 

 startup to landing ?

 I understand your friend : I also would be wary of an airplane I'm

 not 

 allowed to take off and land.

 My first answer when asked about a particular model is, fly the

 airplane 

 before making any decisions.

 What was wrong with that particular airplane (or demo pilot ))

 Best regards,

 -- 

 Gilles Thesee

 http://contrails.free.fr

georgepowell(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

I got my first demo ride in a monowheel at Sun N Fun in the 90's with the factory test pilot.  I did not take off or land, but did fly quite a bit in the air.



At Sun N Fun in 1997, I got a demo in a tri-gear with John Hurst, and I flew the plane myself from taxi to take-off to landing and taxi in.  



I was happy to let the test pilot take off and land the monowheel, but I felt comfortable enough with the tri-gear to do everything.



Just my 2 cents' worth.



George Powell

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Venu Rao

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Europa Training Standards

Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse...please let me know if this issue is 

a "no-go".



I recently bought Steve Crimm's  monowheel - think it's a beautiful, sleek a/c in this config, 

but agree with Steve's original post about getting a list of "named" monowheel owners 

who could possibly help establish some basic training on the mono - particularly if the 

Europa team cannot provide this for insurance, liability or other reasons...



Has anyone provided more formal feedback to the 

Europa team regarding these related topics, namely:

1/ Feedback on Demo Flts

2/ Need for monowheel transition training 

3/ Providing a possible fee-based training program for neophytes like

myself!



Hate hearing about people steering away from the Europa mono - 

it's one of the most elegant designs in aviation!



Cheers,

Venu

_________________
Venu Rao
Austin, TX
Europa Mono
Builder: Jim Nelson
TTAE 119.1 hrs

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

Venu,



You have purchased a lovely ship.  And I agree with you that the Europa Monowheel is a sleek, elegant design.  After all, I'm building one.



It would be a fine idea to have a list of experienced Europa Monowheel owners willing to provide:

1. First Flight services for newly completed aircraft

2. Transition training for newly completed or newly purchased monowheel aircraft owners.



At some point in the future, after I have completed my Europa, I would like to obtain my CFI in order to provide others such services.  But that will be at some point in the future, not right now.  It would be much better if the U.S. Europa team were to formally provide such services.



I have not provided the Europa team feedback on demo flights, monowheel transition training or fee-based training for monowheel newbies.



Bud, are you out there?  If you are, I hereby provide such feedback.



Good building and great flying,

Bob Borger



 

On Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 10:25AM, "Venu Rao" <venurao(at)mac.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse...please let me know if this issue is 

a "no-go".



I recently bought Steve Crimm's  monowheel - think it's a beautiful, sleek a/c in this config, 

but agree with Steve's original post about getting a list of "named" monowheel owners 

who could possibly help establish some basic training on the mono - particularly if the 

Europa team cannot provide this for insurance, liability or other reasons...



Has anyone provided more formal feedback to the 

Europa team regarding these related topics, namely:

1/ Feedback on Demo Flts

2/ Need for monowheel transition training 

3/ Providing a possible fee-based training program for neophytes like

myself!



Hate hearing about people steering away from the Europa mono - 

it's one of the most elegant designs in aviation!



Cheers,

Venu



--------

Venu Rao

058 - Europa XS Monowheel

Builder: Jim Nelson

150 hrs





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140269#140269

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

On Tuesday, October 16, 2007, at 08:11  AM, Venu Rao wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hope I'm not flogging a dead horse...please let me know if this issue 

 is

 a "no-go".



 Hate hearing about people steering away from the Europa mono -

 it's one of the most elegant designs in aviation!


	


Venu,



Welcome to the Europa community...no dead horses here that I'm aware 

of. Your points are well made. Don't hesitate to ask for what you need. 

I agree totally w/ Bob Borger's post.



Fred

A194...still a-buildin'

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This message has been scanned for viruses and

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Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Europa Training Standards

I agree that the mono version is not the kiddy-car that the tri-gear

is - nor is a float plane or a flying boat.

	You won't see many demo pilots letting you take off in a float/boat

either. That is not a reason to switch aircraft - it is a reason to sample

the discipline. At my demo at Europa those many moons ago, I asked to

'follow through' on the controls and was allowed to. It was obvious to me

that a different discipline was required. The directional control was as

busy as that on a Yale or Harvard/SNJ/AT6 - but that's learning, not fear.

Cheers, Ferg

aireupora(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: Europa Training Standards

Robert Borger and all the other Europa would be pilots.  I offered my services as a Flight Instructor to Bub just after Oshkosk, but none of my 12K+ hours are in the Europa.  It will take me two more years before I get the Tri-gear completed if I'm lucky.  I have over 4K hours teaching in everything from Cessna 150 to the Navion, CE-310 to the Piper PA31-350 and most of the small helicopters.  I'd be glad to teach anybody in the Europa once I have the time logged.

   

  I still teach in the Navion as a check out pilot for those that need the five or twenty five hours in this type of plane for insurance checkouts.  I give four to five check rides a week in both helicopters and airplanes.  For fun I fly a PA-18 or the CE-150-150 on floats

   

  I'm on the left coast so it makes it hard  to get back to the right coast.  If anybody needs a co-pilot out here in California I'd love to get some time in the plane.   Then maybe, I could give some instructor in the plane.

   

  Rick Stockton 707-330-1717

 [quote][b]

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