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mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

I am currently trying to design my instrument panel for a Jabir3300. I love the dynon system but $6,000 is a little much for dual panel. 

   I am looking for suggestions concerning instrument panels.



Anyone have any input on iktechnologies, dynon, and grand rapids? I have heard only good on dynon and grand rapids.



I am beginning to think that flat panel is not that much more expensive when you add instruments, vacuum pump and 6cht and egt sensors.



Any thought on flat panel vs steam in terms of cost. Obvious flat panel would be better but I am on a budget.

Don

601xl

Fuse almost done

need engine

need instruments

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

I'm sorry but you said a very naughty word..."Vac**M pump"...cough cough

gag!...



OK I fly my RV7a IFR and if I never see a vacuum pump as long as I live

it will be too soon! Unreliable pieces of junk that will do their

darndest to kill you when in IMC.



For Visual rules flying you really don't need gyro instruments. If I

were doing another 601 (I owned one for 400 hours) I'd put a steam

driven ASI an altimeter and spend the rest of my money on a trutrak

pictorial pilot...Yes an autopilot will be far more useful in this

airplane (at least if you intend to use it for cross country flying)

than a whiz bang panel any day of the week...The Pictorial pilot also

gives you a turn coordinator that actually works! 



But yes your right for IFR then Dynon is light years better than

anything being driven with a vacuum pump.



How about just the Dynon EMS (engine instruments), and the rest as I

described above.



Frank



Zodiac 601 HDS 400 hours (VFR)

RV7a 220 hours (IFR)



--

flybill2usa(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hi Don

  

 My glass experience is mostly limited to modern airliners and not  Experimental airplanes, so I am not an expert but I can share that  I am a  huge proponent of modern glass instruments.  I have  a Dynon D-100 in  my RV-7 which is not flying yet, but those who have either the D-10 or D-100  that have been flying really like them and have had few problems as far as  I know.  The advantages of glass over "steam" are well documented.   Reliability, freedom from gyro problems, initial cost and maintenance and repair  bills, flexibility, capability etc. Airlines love them cause their parts  counts and frequency of repair are much lower. Of course they have dual or  triple redundancy and high end stuff in their panels.

 I will be using a GR 6000 for all engine instruments plus it has back up  capability for Altitude and airspeed.  I will also be using an Auto pilot  as a kind of T & B back-up in the very unlikely total failure of the  single Dynon in IMC.  So, for whatever an opinion is worth, no steam  gages for me.

  

 Bill Schoen

 RV-7 N727BN (res)

 South Fork, Colorado

 [quote]   ---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Yes me too...for  IFR.. but gyro instruments are overkill for VFR..ASI, ALT and turn  coordinator (not that I ever needed mine) can be had for a couple of hundred  bucks...A D100 is $2.5K....Wonderful IFR instrument but just not needed in a VFR  airplane.

  

 Save yer money for  something useful...hence the autopilot.

  

 Frank

 601 400  hours

 RV7a  220hours



   From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill  Schoen

Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 1:02 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List:  Instrument panel beginner

 

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Hi Don

  

 My glass experience is mostly limited to modern airliners and not  Experimental airplanes, so I am not an expert but I can share that  I am a  huge proponent of modern glass instruments.  I have  a Dynon D-100 in  my RV-7 which is not flying yet, but those who have either the D-10 or D-100  that have been flying really like them and have had few problems as far as  I know.  The advantages of glass over "steam" are well documented.   Reliability, freedom from gyro problems, initial cost and maintenance and repair  bills, flexibility, capability etc. Airlines love them cause their parts  counts and frequency of repair are much lower. Of course they have dual or  triple redundancy and high end stuff in their panels.

 I will be using a GR 6000 for all engine instruments plus it has back up  capability for Altitude and airspeed.  I will also be using an Auto pilot  as a kind of T & B back-up in the very unlikely total failure of the  single Dynon in IMC.  So, for whatever an opinion is worth, no steam  gages for me.

  

 Bill Schoen

 RV-7 N727BN (res)

 South Fork, Colorado

 [quote]   ---

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

I am leaning toward the d-100 and I-K tech ems. Would I still need an altimeter and airspeed backup?

Does the equation change with night flight?

Don

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Don,



Whoa! Slow down. Take adeep breath. Your enthusiasm is something we have all experienced but make a list after reading the book and think about it for awhile. If you don't you will have a box full of parts that you thought you needed and will never use. Ask me how I Know.



 If you have a Dynon that is all you need. But what do you want. It is your airplane. Make a wish list then do a reality check.



Mike Ice

RV-9

firewall forward

---

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Michael Ice wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Don,



 Whoa! Slow down. Take adeep breath. Your enthusiasm is something we have all experienced but make a list after reading the book and think about it for awhile. If you don't you will have a box full of parts that you thought you needed and will never use. Ask me how I Know.



  If you have a Dynon that is all you need. But what do you want. It is your airplane. Make a wish list then do a reality check.



   


	


Heed Michael's advice well.



The clip pictures of what you *think* you want and tape them to a 

cardboard mockup of your panel.  Get some hangar flying in.  Actually 

reach out and act like you're modifying the controls.  Go through your 

checklist.  You will find out what you thought you'd like in theory 

isn't the same as in practice.  Move stuff around and repeat the 

process.  Keep at it until you know that every pilot who sit in your 

cockpit will envy you.

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

I am not sure what "Whoa slow down means"? What am I doing to fast?    

     I also have had some input regarding save my money and getting an autopilot. I only just got my spl license and only have 100 hrs total. This would make me equivalent to a two year old just learning to walk, so any input is definitely appreciated. 

    If I bought the plane so I could fly it. Why do I want an autopilot? I get in the plane, take off, climb to altitude, turn toward heading and push a button on the autopilot? I then become a passenger until I have to contact atc for landing?

    I have flown thousands of hrs on Flight Sim with the autopilot engaged. I have NEVER flown in a small airplane with the autopilot engaged. Is there a major difference that I don't know about?



Forgive me in advance, 

I tend to come off with an antagonistic attitude. I believe in honest straightforward discussion with honest direct words and don't mean to be antagonistic in any way. I can take honest criticismsisims.

Don

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:15 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Don,



Forgive me if my comment "Whoa slow down" offended you. Please feel free to order anything and everything you want from all the wonderful vendors. They will love you for it.



Have fun,



Mike Ice



---

n744bh(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Why do you want an autopilot?  Hmmm...if JFK Jr was still around he probably 

could tell you.  The NTSB has got a book a couple of inches thick with the 

reports of people that had the "why would I need an autopilot" attitude. 

They keep it right next to the book of the guys whose famous last words were 

"watch this you guys."  I don't mean to be antagonistic and just passing 

along my $.02 worth.



Bill

Glasair SIIS-FT



---

rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Don,

        In todays airspace, keeping your head out of the cockpit and

watching for traffic is a death defying task.  The auto pilot will allow

you to keep ahead of your airplane and use your map.  It is like a friend

along to do the mundane keep it level and going straight ahead while you

talk to maybe enroute or checking atis ect.  My first plane (I built)

needed it because it would slooowly roll off heading and go downward as I

tried to look at the map.  No hands off flying for more than a few

moments.  Takes the fun out of cross countrys.  Thus, my new build has a

TT wing leveler and altitude hold.  I can now go solo on long cross

countrys and enjoy it.  I would have one before I got any AH or DG for

the panel.  Then it would be an inexpensive  (?) glass panel to replace

the horizon. and directional gyro openings.  Think of resale.  Then

again, look at your pocket book and work into the future.

Jim

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Depends what you want the airplane for.



I had a Zodiac and flew it for 400 hours...Loved it. I ended up using it

primarily for cross country work. It didn't have an autopilot but I

found that I was constantly adjusting my heading to keep going where I

wanted it to go.



I never in my 600 hours of flying needed an artificial horizon...I could

see that if I took off in marginal weather and got cutoff by the low

clouds that POSSIBLY being able to keep the thing flying straight and

level (While you asked ATC for help) could be a benefit.



So, no I don't think you need either an AI or a/p...but if I were to

make an upgrade, the first place I would spend my money would be on an

autopilot instead of a Dynon or similar.



The reason being is that you would only need the Dynon in an emergency

(and believe me if you got into clouds that IS an emergency) but you

could use the A/P all the time to make for relaxed cross country

flying....If you had a weather emergency you can simply engage the A/P

and it will keep your wings level and you can fly in any direction

simply by turning the knob to any desired heading...Say ATC said "Turn

left fly heading 360"..If you were a low time VFR pilot you could very

easily loose control of the airplane during such a manouver, but the A/P

will do it for you in complete safety.



Flying a real airplane is not like flight sim...But you can make it so

with an autopilot but really a glass panel is a waste of money for a

simple light airplane IMO. If you had a really small panel like in a S1

Pitts then you can buy a Dynon D180? And save a whole bunch of space

that way but you really don't have that problem in the Zodiac.



As you have just ordered your kit you have lots of time to make this

decision, and avioincs is getting better all the time. 



Frank



--

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

I am definitely sold on the idea of an autopilot for my RV-8A, but for a

light sport like I think he is building where the intended mission is local

recreational flying, I don't think the need is so obvious.



As to the "woa, slow down" comment, I thought it was quite appropriate if

taken without offense. There is a lot to know before the final decisions on

instruments and radios are made. Building gets you immersed in the process

of creating your own personal airplane and at least in my case, my decisions

keep changing as I learn more and more choices become possible.



Terry

--

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

No offense taken anytime, anywhere by anyone except my wife.

  Can you be a little more specific. I don't get what you mean. How much do I need to know to ask a question? Sorry, you have me totally confused.

Don

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

I thank you all as you have saved me massive amounts of money. I only reason I wanted a dynon was for the artificial horizon for the weather emergency problem. 

   With the autopilot, I can set atitude and heading and pray for a hole. If I get to close to atc territory I can yell for help. 

THANX A BUNCH

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

LRE2(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

There are no "dumb Questions"... but sometimes questions need to be  asked several times in different ways, before the answers make sense.   We've all been there. and from time to time, still are.    LRE2



See what's n [quote][b]

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Sounds right to me..



I'll just interject that many autopilots include turn rate indicator

functionality - so you get that in the bargain.  I think those autopilots

are that best bet.



And, the total cost of a mechanical airspeed and sensitive altimeter, (the

only basic flight instruments provided by an EFIS which are _required_ for

VFR  operations) are much less than any of the EFIS systems.  I have many

hours in airplanes where the only additional flight instruments are a

slip/skid indicator and a compass.  I've done long x-country flights like

that.  No big deal if you don't push the weather.



So, hierarchy of level of _flight instrument_ equipment would be as follows:



1.  Mech Airspeed, Sensitive Altimeter --> Basic day VFR flight, maybe

with a few sunset/sunrise runs if equipped with appropriate lights.

2.  Above plus turn-rate indicating wing leveler (usually can be coupled

with a handheld GPS) --> Upgraded VFR x-country setup.  Would feel

comfortable with some night VFR - _good_ vis. (CAVU) only.  I'm chicken.

3.  Above plus EFIS (I'd consider replacing the function of the mechanical

altimeter and airspeed with GPS data) --> light IFR (getting through a

cloud deck of known thickness - coastal marine layer, weak frontal

conditions, inversion haze).  Single engine airplanes flown for fun by

private pilots shouldn't generally be out making long flights in the crud

and shooting approaches to mins - my opinion.  If the EFIS craps out, the

wing leveler and GPS data will get me someplace where the weather is

better, and even let me shoot an approach if absolutely necessary (done

it).  Having this equipment also implies that no _single_ component

failure (EFIS, AP, GPS, battery, alternator) will endanger the flight..

Regards,



Matt-



[quote] 

 <terry(at)tcwatson.com>



 I am definitely sold on the idea of an autopilot for my RV-8A, but for a

 light sport like I think he is building where the intended mission is

 local

 recreational flying, I don't think the need is so obvious.



 As to the "woa, slow down" comment, I thought it was quite appropriate if

 taken without offense. There is a lot to know before the final decisions

 on

 instruments and radios are made. Building gets you immersed in the process

 of creating your own personal airplane and at least in my case, my

 decisions

 keep changing as I learn more and more choices become possible.



 Terry

 --

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

mosquito56 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I thank you all as you have saved me massive amounts of money. I only reason I wanted a dynon was for the artificial horizon for the weather emergency problem. 

    With the autopilot, I can set atitude and heading and pray for a hole. If I get to close to atc territory I can yell for help. 

 THANX A BUNCH


	


	You could look at something like the Trutrak ADI Pilot II, which is an

autopilot with an attitude display if you wanted both of those features:



http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/instruments_ADI_pilot_2.htm



-Dj

-- 

Dj Merrill

Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118

http://deej.net/sportsman/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

Now we have gone from a $2,000 to a $4,000 system.

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Don,



you do not need a full fledged 2-axis to have a second pilot on board, 

so the Trutrak digitrak for 1650$ or the Trio EZ Pilot for 1770$ would 

do, that coupled with a nice GPS will keep you "wing level" and on track.



 From there you can upgrade for some more dollars with the ADI Pilot to 

have roll and pitch info.



The altitude hold can in most airplanes be left to the manual pilot (you).



About the EFIS and mechanical gauges I keep my mouth shut as I'm biased 

  but I can mostly agree to what Matt did put down in his mail (it's 

just so nice to have all relevant flight info on one screen  )



Werner



mosquito56 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 LMAO, now suggesting I replace a $2,000 overly expensive system with a $4,000 system. What am I missing?

 I can't seem to find an autopilot cheaper then the dynon d-100

 Don



 --------

 Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx

   Apologies if I seem antagonistic.

   I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals for assistance in this thing we call life.





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