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Insurance woes.

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1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

Hey guys,

        I was all set to go look at, and possibly get a Kitfox this Sunday.  I wanted to buy it and then take my LSA instruction in it.  I have an instructor lined up, who says he will do it.  So I called around today, and nobody will sell me insurance because it is experimental, and I am a student.  Even if I got my license before I bought the plane they said I would need 50-100 hours in a taildragger before they would concider it.  How am I supposed to get 50-100 hours in, if I can't get insureance on it?  



Anyone ever come accross a situation like this?  Is there any loopholes or anthing?



Andrew

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance woes.

Andrew,



I had a similar problem with my first Kitfox.  I purchased it while still a student but didn't check on insurance until I had my tailwheel endorsement.  I think I contacted Avemco and AOPA insurance people and they were willing to insure me but the premium was outrageous ($3500+ if I remember correctly).  At that price, I decided I could self insure, basically I looked at it this way...I figured that the most likely issue I would be facing was a ground loop (in most any other accident, replacement of the airplane would be the least of my worries) and being that it is experimental, I would be doing the repair on it myself and could probably repair damage done during a typical ground loop for this amount or less(unless I flipped the plane and bent the fuse, tail, wing, etc).  I admit I took a calculated risk but it paid off and I got the hours I needed to bring the insurance down a bit.  I am not advocating flying without insurance by any means but sometimes there are not many other options especially for young pilots and experimentals.  I will definitely be insuring the Series 7 but there is a huge difference in cost between my 7 and my old model 3.  Good luck to you.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

Sure.  I've been flying since 1962.  The problem has existed for student/low time pilots, and folks with no taildragger time for a many years.  Most folks that I am acquainted with don't carry hull insurance on their airplanes because of the prohibitive price and experience requirements of the insurance companies.  I've flown more than 8500 hours, with well over 2000 hours in taildraggers, and have only damaged one airplane in that time (it was a tricycle gear aircraft).  I've owned a couple airplanes over the years and never did carry hull insurance because for the price of the insurance premium over a 10 year period, I could buy a replacement airplane.  There is no requirement in the FAA regulations to carry ANY insurance on an aircraft that is not operated for hire.

John Hart



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

Andrew,  This is an interesting question.  First, I talked to my adjuster 

this morning regarding my hard landing that destroyed my airplane.  I can 

recommend Falcon if they will insure you.  The underwriter is AIG and they 

have been beyond great in their response and helpfullness.



That said, I would contact EAA and see if they can help.  Falcon insurance 

through EAA is a bit more expensive than if they will insure you direct as 

the increased premium helps underwrite the risk low time pilots bring to the 

insured pool.



I wouldn't fly without at least liability.  My wife (any passenger) is 

insured to $100,000 on my Falcon policy in the case she finds some reason to 

sue me. ( I hope she doesn't read this hee hee.)  But, FYI, I was in the 

emergency room for less than seven hours - a tetanus shot, CAT Scan, other 

X-rays and a bill totalling almost $25,000.  Add to that $5,000 for the 

radiologist to read the x-rays, $3,000 for ambulance rides and you will be 

in the first day almost what a nice Model IV would cost.  Also keep in mind 

that my wife, Kay's (read, the "passenger's") emergency room bill was higher 

than mine by more than ten thousand because of the nature of her injuries. 

Had she been a friend, I would be liable for that as well.  Heath 

insurance - yes, but there are deductibles, co-pays and lots of other things 

that pop up, but who knows if your CFI would just walk away saying no 

problem if he was injured in your airplane, or what his family would do if 

worse.



Try EAA.



Lowell

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

At 02:41 PM 10/19/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So I called around today, and nobody will sell me insurance because 

it is experimental, and I am a student.  Even if I got my license 

before I bought the plane they said I would need 50-100 hours in a 

taildragger before they would concider it.  How am I supposed to get 

50-100 hours in, if I can't get insureance on it?


	


It seems odd, because when I finished my K-IV I obtained insurance 

from AOPA/AIG with about 200 hours TT and 20 hours taildragger. It 

cost $700 for $1M liability only. (I self-insure the hull.) The 

following year I switched to Avemco at $580 for the same insurance. 

So I don't know where they get the 50-100 hours. Indeed, since the 

instructor will almost certainly have to be a named insured, it's 

his/her hours that really count, not yours. (Anyone who flies my 

plane must be named on the policy.) Very strange.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

1alawrence(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

That is exactly my thought.  I konw it is perfectly legal to fly without insurance, but it is the "What if?" that gets me.  Last thing I want is to have someone take my home and put me in debt for life.



Thanks guys,



Andrew

--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Insurance woes.

Andrew, I agree with Lowell on insurance.  My classic 4 was ready to fly for 6 years before I bit the bullet and got the tail wheel instruction needed to satisfy the insurance company.  It was well worth it!  AIG gave me the best deal.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

I was able to get ins through the EAA plan with a whappppppping 4 hr tail

wheel ( just enough for the endorcement) and about 200 total time in

numerous types ( I have an A&P and test fly most of the aircraft I work on).

They did however require 5 hour in type with instructor and 5 hours solo in

type.  They would cover me during the required but no passengers(not

counting the instructor).  It is not cheep either

--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

Darin sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I will definitely be insuring the Series 7 but there is a huge 

difference in cost between my 7 and my old model 3.  Good luck to 

you.


	


To my mind, it is the liability coverage that is at issue.  After my 

accident I was very happy to have paid for hull coverage--it's what 

enabled me to get another 'fox to build--but in this day and age I 

would not fly within 100 miles of another human without liability 

insurance and certainly would not take passengers with me without it.



My medical bills came to about $500,000 which was paid for by my 

company-provided health coverage but my passenger's injuries cost 

$125,000 to repair and his health plan came after my insurance 

company for reimbursement.  If I had not had liability coverage I 

would have found myself in court trying to talk them out of taking 

half of everything I own.



Like Lowell's policy, mine had a $100,000 per seat limit, which I 

consider to be completely inadequate these days.  The policy that 

covers my Piper Turbo Arrow is "smooth" coverage--there is no 

per-seat limit.  The entire $1,000,000 is available as needed to 

cover passengers and anyone injured on the ground.  It costs a little 

bit more but when my new 'fox is finished I will get a smooth 

coverage liability policy for it as well.



I realize this doesn't help with the original question of how to get 

any coverage at all, but if you have any financial assets at all it 

is critical you protect them when you fly.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: Insurance woes.

I didn't get insurance (I now have liability only, so far) on my 1- 

year-old Kitfox until after I had about 290 hours solo, all  

taildragger, and about 370 total hours including dual instruction. It  

cost me about $560 through Avemco. I had tried to get insurance  

through EAA right at Airventure, but for some reason they couldn't  

sign me up right then and there, saying that I had to call and do the  

"leg work" over the phone. I went to the Avemco booth, and was signed  

up immediately, with coverage to begin that night at midnight  

(Thursday).



The reason for the quick need to sign up was that I was told that I  

would be asked if I had insurance if I were to participate in the  

Homebuilder's Review flight prior to Friday's airshow. I didn't want  

to lie, so I got insured real quick. I discovered later that proof of  

insurance was NOT asked for, and in fact, the question was not put to  

me.



Yes, sports fans, I made my cross-country trek out west sans  

insurance....perhaps not my brightest hour, but nonetheless....



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/420+ hrs

do not archive



On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Tom Jones wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Andrew, I agree with Lowell on insurance.  My classic 4 was ready  

 to fly for 6 years before I bit the bullet and got the tail wheel  

 instruction needed to satisfy the insurance company.  It was well  

 worth it!  AIG gave me the best deal.



 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV, Phase one

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140821#140821

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

hflynn46531(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: Insurance woes.

Try Falcon insurance agency of Arizona  Ph# 1-800-880-3597



Andrew Lawrence <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net> wrote:  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Andrew Lawrence <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net>



Hey guys,

I was all set to go look at, and possibly get a Kitfox this Sunday. I wanted to buy it and then take my LSA instruction in it. I have an instructor lined up, who says he will do it. So I called around today, and nobody will sell me insurance because it is experimental, and I am a student. Even if I got my license before I bought the plane they said I would need 50-100 hours in a taildragger before they would concider it. How am I supposed to get 50-100 hours in, if I can't get insureance on it? 



Anyone ever come accross a situation like this? Is there any loopholes or [quote][b]

fly2wb(at)dishmail.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Insurance woes.

Hey Andrew,



I also had the same problem when completing my 5. I could not even get a

quote untill I had flown off 50 hours in a tailwheel. At that time I had

only 3 hours tailwheel time (for the endorsement) and considered these my

options.



Fly the airplane without insurance untill I satisfied the insurance

company requirement.



Get my CFI listed on my aircraft as PIC and fly the 50 with him in the

airplane at all times. Never checked for sure if this was even possible

but assumed it was.



Get checked out in rental tailwheel and fly the 50.



For various reasons---I chose to fly my new aircraft without any insurance

untill the 50 was flown off---contacted the insurance company and was

issued full coverage policy that day.



Glad I took the route I did  but it was always in the back of my mind for

the first 50.



If you buy the airplane no matter what route you take you will be glad

that you did when the 50 is over and you are covered in an airplane you

own.  The Kitfox is docile and forgiving and my wife always tells me how

much I smile after flying!



Brad Martin

Wichita

5 LYC0-235L2C

N232WB

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net>



 Hey guys,

         I was all set to go look at, and possibly get a Kitfox this

 Sunday.  I wanted to buy it and then take my LSA instruction in

 it.  I have an instructor lined up, who says he will do it.  So I called

around today, and nobody will sell me insurance because it is
	


experimental, and I am a student.  Even if I got my license

 	  Quote: 	
		   before I bought the plane they said I would need 50-100 hours in a

taildragger before they would concider it.  How am I supposed to get
	


50-100 hours in, if I can't get insureance on it?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Anyone ever come accross a situation like this?  Is there any loopholes

or
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   anthing?



 Andrew

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: Insurance woes.

You guys should come to Canada...  There is no such animal as a tail wheel

endorsement here.



Hull insurance when I checked into it didn't ask tail or nose.  I may not

have checked far enough.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: Insurance woes.

Great story Andrew,I too can not get insurance coverage.because I only 

have under 10hr all so.I call all over trying to get coverage to no 

luck.so far I have been OK,getting close to the 10 hr that I need.I 

decided to fly my time off with out insurance.for now.any way the best 

of luck to all of us with out insurance.Steve Shinabery,KF2,N554KF,Saint 

Marys Ohio



fly2wb(at)dishmail.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Andrew,



 I also had the same problem when completing my 5. I could not even get a

 quote untill I had flown off 50 hours in a tailwheel. At that time I had

 only 3 hours tailwheel time (for the endorsement) and considered these my

 options.



 Fly the airplane without insurance untill I satisfied the insurance

 company requirement.



 Get my CFI listed on my aircraft as PIC and fly the 50 with him in the

 airplane at all times. Never checked for sure if this was even possible

 but assumed it was.



 Get checked out in rental tailwheel and fly the 50.



 For various reasons---I chose to fly my new aircraft without any insurance

 untill the 50 was flown off---contacted the insurance company and was

 issued full coverage policy that day.



 Glad I took the route I did  but it was always in the back of my mind for

 the first 50.



 If you buy the airplane no matter what route you take you will be glad

 that you did when the 50 is over and you are covered in an airplane you

 own.  The Kitfox is docile and forgiving and my wife always tells me how

 much I smile after flying!



 Brad Martin

 Wichita

 5 LYC0-235L2C

 N232WB

   

> 

> <1alawrence(at)earthlink.net>

>

> Hey guys,

>         I was all set to go look at, and possibly get a Kitfox this

> Sunday.  I wanted to buy it and then take my LSA instruction in

> it.  I have an instructor lined up, who says he will do it.  So I called

>     

 around today, and nobody will sell me insurance because it is

 experimental, and I am a student.  Even if I got my license

   

> before I bought the plane they said I would need 50-100 hours in a

>     

 taildragger before they would concider it.  How am I supposed to get

 50-100 hours in, if I can't get insureance on it?

   

> Anyone ever come accross a situation like this?  Is there any loopholes

>     

 or

   

> anthing?

>

> Andrew

>

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