Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Engine Failures Update

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Engine Failures Update

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Commander-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine - at the same time.  Here’s an update.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank).  The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be re-built.  Here’s the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual inspection.  Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).    

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by Lycoming).  He says that it is not necessary.  Several engine experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they look too “used” to be 5.5. hours old.  Morris and the cylinder shop deny that they are used.  Central Cylinder in Omaha, NE is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each).  They indicate that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of excessive “blow-by” and crankcase pressurization.  I have always been very careful about temps, so the only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test run.  Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the situation.  I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and accountability.  He has been virtually silent since the incident.  I have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not called me once.  He says that nothing he did caused the failures.  Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot the problems and help me with a solution.  We still do not know definitely what caused the failures.  Morris did give me an engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K.  I believe that he is hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being accountable for the work leaving his shop.  At this time, I am still analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred because of this incident.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

In any case, I wanted to share my story.  I have always liked Morris, and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders.  Morris does not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work done in his shop.  I believe this situation may be a result of his conviction for falsifying maintenance records.  Because of these factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with competent service – service that is so important to the safety and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane.  I feel obligated to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your own conclusions.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at Airmotive Specialties.  I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in the air.  It’s been a long 7 months.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Randy Dettmer, AIA  

680F/N6253X  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

 AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail  Signature" <![endif]-->[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C81321.F0317240[/img]  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA  93405  

805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865  

http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8052 Time(s)

bowing74(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Sorry to hear the results but I’m not surprised.  

bilbo  

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA

 Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:03 PM

 To: Commander Chat

 Subject: Engine Failures Update  

  

   

Back in February, I reported to the group my experience in losing the left engine in my 680F while experiencing trouble with the right engine - at the same time.  Here’s an update.  

   

After losing oil through the breather, with serious loss of oil pressure, the left engine threw a rod (the rod separated at the crank).  The right engine lost 2-3 gallons through the breather during the previous one hour leg, and made so much metal it must be re-built.  Here’s the scenario - both engines lost a huge amount of oil through the breathers (the crank cases became pressurized), both incidents occurred at the same time, at 5.5. hrs after the annual inspection.  Both engines had cylinders replaced during the annual inspection (2 on the right, 1 on the left).    

   

I cannot believe that these episodes are a coincidence.  

   

My mechanic (ex-mechanic now), Morris Kernick (who has maintained the airplane for the past 7 years) did not put the required break-in oil in the engines after cylinder replacement (as specifically recommended by Lycoming).  He says that it is not necessary.  Several engine experts who have examined the rings in the replaced cylinders indicate that they look too “used” to be 5.5. hours old.  Morris and the cylinder shop deny that they are used.  Central Cylinder in Omaha,  NE is currently re-building the engines (at $50K each).  They indicate that the cylinder walls are glazed, which is caused by over heating, and can be a cause of excessive “blow-by” and crankcase pressurization.  I have always been very careful about temps, so the only time the engines could be overheated is during a ground test run.  Morris Kernick has not taken any responsibility for the situation.  I have been very disappointed in his lack of support and accountability.  He has been virtually silent since the incident.  I have had to call him each time to discuss the situation. He has not called me once.  He says that nothing he did caused the failures.  Whether or not Morris caused the problems, I would have expected him to stand behind his work and to at least do his best to trouble shoot the problems and help me with a solution.  We still do not know definitely what caused the failures.  Morris did give me an engine core, which I would value at around $15-20K.  I believe that he is hoping that the engine core will be a cheap way out of being accountable for the work leaving his shop.  At this time, I am still analyzing options to recover some of the significant expenses incurred because of this incident.  

   

In any case, I wanted to share my story.  I have always liked Morris, and have appreciated his vast knowledge about Commanders.  Morris does not have an A&P license, and relies on his employee to sign off all work done in his shop.  I believe this situation may be a result of his conviction for falsifying maintenance records.  Because of these factors, and my recent experience, I cannot trust him to provide me with competent service – service that is so important to the safety and lives of the people that I carry in my airplane.  I feel obligated to share these details with my fellow Commander owners, so that you can make your own conclusions.  

   

The engines should be completed in several more weeks, and will be shipped to SNS and installed on the airplane by Dave Teeters at Airmotive Specialties.  I am looking forward to getting N6253X back in the air.  It’s been a long 7 months.  

   

Randy Dettmer, AIA  

680F/N6253X  

   

[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C8134A.C0777120[/img]  

   

663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA  93405  

805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865  

http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8055 Time(s)

Jerry Sprayberry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Summerville, GA

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Randy,

  

 Thank you for sharing your experience with your 680F, If  it will make you feel better I, also have had three "UN-EXPLAINED" oil loss on  the left side of my 680F, I know it is the breather system for sure, but I find  that it happens within :20 of take-off on a cold day? Beware of your Mechanic he  may be hazardous to your health.

  

 Jerry

 [quote]   ---

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8060 Time(s)

_________________
Capn Spray

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Gents-

  

 For someone who has never heard of this phenomenon-   can anyone give a good technical explanation of what exactly is happening to  cause the oil to blow out the breather system- and how does one check for it-  prevent it, etc?

  

 I'm running TCM engines on the 685, but I'm assuming it can  happen there as well?

  

 Robert S.Randazzo



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry  Sprayberry

Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:41 PM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Engine  Failures Update

 

 Randy,

  

 Thank you for sharing your experience with your 680F, If  it will make you feel better I, also have had three "UN-EXPLAINED" oil loss on  the left side of my 680F, I know it is the breather system for sure, but I find  that it happens within :20 of take-off on a cold day? Beware of your Mechanic he  may be hazardous to your health.

  

 Jerry

 [quote]   ---

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8053 Time(s)

CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

In a message dated 21-Oct-07 17:56:38 Pacific Daylight Time,  rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  For someone who    has never heard of this phenomenon-  can anyone give a good technical    explanation of what exactly is happening to cause the oil to blow out the    breather system- and how does one check for it- prevent it,    etc? 	


 

 Robert,

 

This will be a (poor) explanation of either very loose science, or,  very tight magic.

  

 I watched the crew at Down Town Airpark place an airspeed indicator rigged  to a tube that was placed over the crank case breather of an IGSO-540 on an  AC-680-FL.

 

They were literally measuring the "wind" coming out of the  breather.  Sorry that I can not recall what value was used for the  diagnostic, but a certain "airspeed" meant that rings were bad on cylinders and  letting the compression stroke leak past the piston and pressurize the  crank case.

  

 Based on this test,  one engine was top overhauled after this check  and ended up being the only strong engine on the airplane.

  

 Wing Commander Gordon

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

WCG-

  

 Thanks for the  explanation- that actually does help my understanding of what issue is taking  place.

  

 Every time I think I know  my piston engines-  something like this comes up- and I start thinking  turbines are a better idea.  :-p

  

 Robert

  

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  CloudCraft(at)aol.com

Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:59  PM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:  Engine Failures Update

 

  In a message dated 21-Oct-07 17:56:38 Pacific Daylight Time,  rsrandazzo(at)precisionmanuals.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  For someone who has    never heard of this phenomenon-  can anyone give a good technical    explanation of what exactly is happening to cause the oil to blow out the    breather system- and how does one check for it- prevent it,    etc? 	


 

 Robert,

 

This will be a (poor) explanation of either very loose science, or,  very tight magic.

  

 I watched the crew at Down Town Airpark place an airspeed indicator rigged  to a tube that was placed over the crank case breather of an IGSO-540 on an  AC-680-FL.

 

They were literally measuring the "wind" coming out of the  breather.  Sorry that I can not recall what value was used for the  diagnostic, but a certain "airspeed" meant that rings were bad on cylinders and  letting the compression stroke leak past the piston and pressurize the  crank case.

  

 Based on this test,  one engine was top overhauled after this check  and ended up being the only strong engine on the airplane.

  

 Wing Commander Gordon



   Navigator to  much much  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List  the Web  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  =========== [/b] 	  Quote: 	
		  	




__________ NOD32 2605 (20071022) Information  __________



This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

   [quote][b]

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Engine Failures Update

Depending on where you place the tip of the overboard dump and how you cut the tip can determine whether or not you suck oil out.



As WCG mentioned bad pistos willl pressurize the case. Placement of the drain end in a low pressure airflow will "suck" the oil out.



Another common problem is overfilling with oil those dip sticks aren't exactly precise and sometimes running a quart less than you have been can fix the problem.



The tip of the tube needs to be placed in a high pressure area and cut at a 45 deg angle facing forward so as to provide a slight back pressure.



Robert dont worry 414C ain't gonna siphon. If you start blowing oil you have an engine problem.



It does sound though like Randy's problem was dueto something unrelated to the above.

_________________
Milt

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Another way you can lose oil.....



Some years ago I was flying a turbo 206 for photo survey work. It was 

bitterly cold and the engine was preheated. We were sitting there just 

slowly warming up when I thought I saw something out of the corner of my 

eye. I turned around (the 206 has back window) and I saw clouds of smoke 

blowing out the exhaust.



The aircraft's owner was running an air oil seperator, to recover oil to try 

to keep the camera lens clean. (I no longer believe in agressive crankcase 

vapor recover, for a number of reasons.) Even with the engine preheat, the 

seperator remained cold enough to freeze solid from water vapor exiting the 

crankcase. The crankcase built up so much pressure it blew a quart or two of 

oil out of the engine in no time. I've heard of engines blowing out the 

front seal from this. (I think my dad had this happen in a C-180. I'll have 

to ask.) I thought this was the reason that the 500 series relocated the 

breather to out the top near the exhaust, instead of the original system.



I did think about the failure of those two engines with the replaced jugs. I 

can't imagine the type of engine oil as being responsible for losing a rod 

on a new jug. Ring clearance too tight?

---

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

HI RANDY.  I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines.  I have to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not impossible.  I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts.  I think it is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil.  In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and never changed to mineral oil.  A wise old mechanic I learned from taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor required that the oil be changed.  I have no idea what difference that makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not seat properly.  I have even changed many cyl without installing new rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work.  He taught that if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they had originally run) and they always did.   I have a couple jugs on my P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong.

 I also doubt that heat is the problem.  Morris Kernick has scolded me for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to believe he would do that??

 Last was tight ring gap.  The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for cold weather ops.  The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 F and below)  If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each other and may brake.  Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the bottom when the engine is cold.  As the engine (cyl) warms to operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight.  This is why it is very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying power.  If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still be in the cyl bore.  As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will be squeezed in and out.  This can also break a ring or scar the cyl walls. 

  I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have been installed.  The damage you describe is consistent with that.  There are two major ring types, chrome and iron.  Chrome rings are used only in steel cyl, and vice versa.  If chrome rings are installed in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur.  The shop who tore your engines down should have checked this very first.  Second would be that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be up, toward the top of the piston)  Most modern rings are a chevron design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to expand and seal more tightly in the cyl.  If the are not installed properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings.  This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit.  Beyond that, ????

 Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop.  If the cyl came as an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine??

 I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today.  He has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone.  He is however human and like all of us can make mistakes.  I don't know what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out.  Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy.  I  too look forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad that all this had to happen to you.  Good luck

 

  jb

 

 

 

 --

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8047 Time(s)

rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Thanks Jim, for the response.Â  Since I am not a mechanic, I must rely on others more knowledgeable to advise me regarding these matters.Â  All the items mentioned in your comments regarding ring type, sizes, installation, etc have been looked at by many mechanics and experts (except I donâ€™t remember any mention of chrome vs iron).Â  Nothing seemed to be out of order.Â  I will check on the chrome vs iron situation.Â  Regarding my comments about Morris, I thought long about whether to share with the group.Â  I believe that he let me down (whether or not he was responsible for the failures).Â  If he let me down, he might let someone else down.Â  Thanks again for your post.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

RD  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Â AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01C817B4.FFA5FEC0[/img]  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CAÂ  93405  

805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865  

http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of yourtcfg(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:59 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failures Update  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

HI RANDY.  I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines.  I have to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not impossible.  I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts.  I think it is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil.  In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and never changed to mineral oil.  A wise old mechanic I learned from taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor required that the oil be changed.  I have no idea what difference that makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not seat properly.  I have even changed many cyl without installing new rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work.  He taught that if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they had originally run) and they always did.   I have a couple jugs on my P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong.

 I also doubt that heat is the problem.  Morris Kernick has scolded me for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to believe he would do that??

 Last was tight ring gap.  The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for cold weather ops.  The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 F and below)  If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each other and may brake.  Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the bottom when the engine is cold.  As the engine (cyl) warms to operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight.  This is why it is very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying power.  If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still be in the cyl bore.  As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will be squeezed in and out.  This can also break a ring or scar the cyl walls. 

  I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have been installed.  The damage you describe is consistent with that.  There are two major ring types, chrome and iron.  Chrome rings are used only in steel cyl, and vice versa.  If chrome rings are installed in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur.  The shop who tore your engines down should have checked this very first.  Second would be that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be up, toward the top of the piston)  Most modern rings are a chevron design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to expand and seal more tightly in the cyl.  If the are not installed properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings.  This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit.  Beyond that, ????

 Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop.  If the cyl came as an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine??

 I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today.  He has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone.  He is however human and like all of us can make mistakes.  I don't know what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out.  Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy.  I  too look forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad that all this had to happen to you.  Good luck

 

  jb

 

 

 

 --

image001.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8052 Time(s)

image002.gif

Description:

Filesize:

2.97 KB

Viewed:

8048 Time(s)

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Randy, Jimbob,



One thing I would like to ask, to clarify: I understand that the failed 

rod was NOT on any of the cylinders that Morris replaced, is that 

correct? I heard that the failed rod was on an adjacent cylinder to the 

replaced one.



How would all the causes listed below affect a cylinder that wasn't 

replaced? Can a new cylinder have negative effects on adjacent jugs?



Cheers,



/John



yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:

[quote] HI RANDY.  I am so sorry to hear of the loss of BOTH engines.  I have 

 to agree that it seems unlikely that it was a coincidence, but not 

 impossible.  I wanted to comment on a couple of the posts.  I think it 

 is unlikely that the event was caused by using a detergent type oil.  

 In my 31 years as an A&P, I have changed many dozen cylinders, and 

 never changed to mineral oil.  A wise old mechanic I learned from 

 taught me that if less that 1/2 of the cyl. were changed, it was nor 

 required that the oil be changed.  I have no idea what difference that 

 makes, but in all the cyl I changed, I had not even one that did not 

 seat properly.  I have even changed many cyl without installing new 

 rings, like if you just needed to do some valve work.  He taught that 

 if the cyl and rings were installed completely dry, no oil of any 

 kind, the used rings would re-seat themselves (in the same jug they 

 had originally run) and they always did.   I have a couple jugs on my 

 P&W 985 now that were done that way and running strong.

 I also doubt that heat is the problem.  Morris Kernick has scolded me 

 for running my engines to long on the ground, so I find it hard to 

 believe he would do that??

 Last was tight ring gap.  The minimum ring gap is set by the mfg for 

 cold weather ops.  The cyl will shrink considerably in cold weather (0 

 F and below)  If the ring gap is too small, the rings will touch each 

 other and may brake.  Many cyl are manufactured with a "choke" meaning 

 that the bore is smaller at the top of the piston stroke than at the 

 bottom when the engine is cold.  As the engine (cyl) warms to 

 operating temp, the cyl bore will become straight.  This is why it is 

 very important to properly warm an aircraft engine before applying 

 power.  If the cyl temps are not 'in the green", the choke will still 

 be in the cyl bore.  As the rings reach the top of the cyl, they will 

 be squeezed in and out.  This can also break a ring or scar the cyl 

 walls. 

  I think a more likely possibility is that the wrong rings may have 

 been installed.  The damage you describe is consistent with that.  

 There are two major ring types, chrome and iron.  Chrome rings are 

 used only in steel cyl, and vice versa.  If chrome rings are installed 

 in chrome cyl, no seating will ever occur.  The shop who tore your 

 engines down should have checked this very first.  Second would be 

 that the rings were installed up-side-down (the part number should be 

 up, toward the top of the piston)  Most modern rings are a chevron 

 design and are ground so that combustion pressure causes the ring to 

 expand and seal more tightly in the cyl.  If the are not installed 

 properly, they will allow combustion gasses to freely pass the rings.  

 This too should have been checked as a most likely culprit.  Beyond 

 that, ????

 Did Morris build up the cyls, or did a cyl shop.  If the cyl came as 

 an assembly, the rings would have been installed by them and all 

 Morris would have done is bolt them on the engine??

 I have worked with Morris an many projects and find him to be, without 

 a doubt, the most knowledgeable Commander mechanic alive today.  He 

 has as much field experience with the geared lycomings as anyone.  He 

 is however human and like all of us can make mistakes.  I don't know 

 what happened to you engines, but I would not rest until I found out.  

 Someone should be able to determine this for you Randy.  I  too look 

 forward to you having your airplane back in the fleet, I feel so bad 

 that all this had to happen to you.  Good luck



  jb



 --

rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

The failed rod was on the number 6 cylinder.  The replaced cylinder was next to the failed rod/cylinder.  There is still much mystery as to what caused the rod to fail.  We know it was not because of lack of lubrication, even though the engine was spewing oil out the breather.  It apparently failed before all oil was lost.



RD



663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA  93405

805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865

http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/



--

John Vormbaum

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

These are dry-sump engines, right? Would overfilling have an effect?



Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote:

[quote] 



 The failed rod was on the number 6 cylinder.  The replaced cylinder was next to the failed rod/cylinder.  There is still much mystery as to what caused the rod to fail.  We know it was not because of lack of lubrication, even though the engine was spewing oil out the breather.  It apparently failed before all oil was lost.



 RD



 663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA  93405

 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865

 http://www.dettmerarchitecture.com/



 --

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

No, that should not matter.  If they are overfilled, the oil bladders can be damaged as the recovery pump (scavenge) in the engine would return too much oil to the tank, but the breather should not be effected.  jb

 

 

 --

BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. But, things happen, I just had a  crankshaft break in the R-1340 (T-6) on the way to OSH this year. It was running  great and then Poof! no engine! There was no warning. The engine shop said it  was only the second broken crank they had seen since they started business in  1972. 

  

 I know that is no consolation. Did it show any signs of oil  starvation? That could be a connection to the cylinder problem. Most of what  people have been telling you is correct.Some of it even seems contradictory but  not necessarily wrong. Phillips XC oil is recommended by many overhaulers for  break in and it is not mineral oil. I usually don't change the oil for only one  or two cylinders and have never had any problem. However on the IGSO engine I  NEVER run it on the ground after a cylinder change except to leak and function  check before I go fly. This engine is very prone to glazing the cylinders and  then you can't control the oil.  Did you have steel or chrome  cylinders?

  

 I have may years dealing with IGSO540's. they can be bad about blowing oil.  Did you get an definitive report on the ring type and position on the cylinders  that were changed?

  

 Bill Leff 



See w [quote][b]

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Bill-  

   

You earned the respect and admiration of many of us on this list with that landing…  How’s your 6 doing?  Back in the air yet?  

   

Robert Randazzo  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com

 Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:05 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine Failures Update  

  

  

     

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. But, things happen, I just had a crankshaft break in the R-1340 (T-6) on the way to OSH this year. It was running great and then Poof! no engine! There was no warning. The engine shop said it was only the second broken crank they had seen since they started business in 1972.   

    

   

    

I know that is no consolation. Did it show any signs of oil starvation? That could be a connection to the cylinder problem. Most of what people have been telling you is correct.Some of it even seems contradictory but not necessarily wrong. Phillips XC oil is recommended by many overhaulers for break in and it is not mineral oil. I usually don't change the oil for only one or two cylinders and have never had any problem. However on the IGSO engine I NEVER run it on the ground after a cylinder change except to leak and function check before I go fly. This engine is very prone to glazing the cylinders and then you can't control the oil.  Did you have steel or chrome cylinders?  

    

   

    

I have may years dealing with IGSO540's. they can be bad about blowing oil. Did you get an definitive report on the ring type and position on the cylinders that were changed?  

    

   

    

Bill Leff   

  



 

         

  

See w    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4  



 

 __________ NOD32 2624 (20071029) Information __________

 

   

  

        [quote][b]

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

HI BILL.  Great to hear from you!  I agree, strange things happen in aviation.  I flew R-1340s many thousands of hours in Thrush Commanders and never hear of a crank failure.  Cames, blowers, rods and master rods, but never a crank.  You did a great job getting the airplane safely landed.  I have though a lot about Randy's engines troubles and can make no connection between the changing of an adjacent cylinder and the failure of a connecting rod.  I think Randy had posted earlier that they had rulled out oil starvation as a cause.  I also would like to know how the rod failed (Rod bolt, rod cap, broken rod etc)  I do believe that the blow-by could have been caused by incorrect rings or correct rings incorrectly installed.  Hopefully the guy who tore it down took note if that.   jb 

 

 

 --

BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Thanks, my T-6 is back flying with a loaner wing. My wing is being repaired  ( I hit a 4x4 wooden sign post) and should be ready in December. I had my spare  R1340 (800 hours TT since new) overhauled and put it on the plane. The engine on  the plane is trash, the crank shaft broke!

  

 I am back flying air shows and have done two last month and will be leaving  for another next week.

  

 Thanks for asking.

  

 Bill Leff



See what's  [quote][b]

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Engine Failures Update

Bill-  

   

Great to hear!  We are fellow T-6/Commander owners- although mine is an SNJ-6.  

   

Two great airplanes.  

   

Robert  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:51 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Engine Failures Update  

  

  

     

Thanks, my T-6 is back flying with a loaner wing. My wing is being repaired ( I hit a 4x4 wooden sign post) and should be ready in December. I had my spare R1340 (800 hours TT since new) overhauled and put it on the plane. The engine on the plane is trash, the crank shaft broke!  

    

   

    

I am back flying air shows and have done two last month and will be leaving for another next week.  

    

   

    

Thanks for asking.  

    

   

    

Bill Leff  

  



 

         

  

See what's    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4  



 

 __________ NOD32 2627 (20071030) Information __________

 

   

  

        [quote][b]

BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Engine Failures Update

I agree.

  

 Bill



See what's new a [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Commander-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum