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yakjock(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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I continue to wonder why the Evergreen 747 fire bomber is not being used. Two years ago I saw video footage of this plane at work and had a chance to talk to their chief pilot. The aircraft is amazing in the load it carries, the choices for delivering the water/suppressant and its handling characteristics. It apparently has been tangled up in FAA paperwork. For whatever reason it is a shame it is not in use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvBRWTumoZI&NR=1 An Evergreen video on the supertanker.
In answering my own question:
March 2007:
747 SUPERTANKER HEADS INTO THE SUNSET
Shocking news came out of Evergreen Aviation today: A stop work order has been issued for their multi-million dollar 747 firefighting aircraft and the Supertanker organization within Evergreen is being dismantled. An internal memo (not for publication) stated that "I regret to advise you that the Evergreen Supertanker program and Evergreen Supertanker Services Inc. have been given a "Stop Work" order from the Evergreen Corporate Headquarters... As of close of business, Tuesday, 21 March 2007, the Evergreen Supertanker office in Marana, AZ. will be closed for business." Bob McAndrew, former president of the Supertanker organization, was stunned by the turn of events and the entire affair casts doubt on the future of the DC-10 Supertanker, the main competitor to the 747.
After probing a little deeper, it appears that leadership in the US Forest Service (USFS) and the FAA were not receptive to having an aircraft that would be used for both fighting fires and also hauling cargo (in the off-season). This was one of the key features of the Evergreen program because it allowed them to earn a profit between fire seasons (reportedly around $180,000 a day as a cargo transport). This seems strange because in years past, that was how other air-tanker companies made money – fighting fires during the fire season and hauling cargo during the rest of the year. Since many of the aircraft types employed by private contractors lent themselves well to this "double-duty" (principally because they were originally transport aircraft, bombers, and other aircraft with large holds), it made the business feasible, if not lucrative. The question that arises is: When did the FAA (and USFS, for that matter) turn a baleful eye towards this practice?
Another point of interest surrounds both houses of Congress sending members in to grill the USFS about some matters of operation. What exactly are they looking for? Does the hasty cancellation of the 747 program have anything to do with this investigation? And how will the DC-10 come out in light of this startling turn of events? The situation becomes curiouser and curiouser! Comments? Contact me at marcher47(at)firebomberpublications.com (marcher47(at)firebomberpublications.com)
The 747 carries about 24,000 gallons vs 3,000 for the P3. I believe that the DC-10 carries 16 – 19,000 gallons.
[quote][b]
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hkgibby(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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All,
Canadians (Bombardier) build a fire fighting a/c called the CL-415 that is used all over the Med that, for some reason, CA and FL don't have. CA uses a few on short term lease basis that is too little too late. With the cost in FL/GA and now CA fire damage running into the billions, the U.S. should have several squadrons of these very effective aircraft. Mind-boggling!!
Hoot
Jacksonville, FL
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
--
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seancrotty(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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At one time while I was still an instructor flying KC-135's I went out to Scott AFB with my crew to fly "mock up" fire suppression missions" in the simulator - This was back in the early 90's - They were going to "replumb" some 135's and KC-10's for strictly this purpose and put them in a few guard units around the country - strictly for fire fighting - Those refueling pumps could put out something like a 1000 gals a min each and we had four of them - So the theory was make the "boom" bigger so more could head out at one time - the pumps were already plenty big.
The problem is this is a political hot button and always has been - the military taking over a "civilian" contract - The whole thing needs to get looked at - from where they allow buildings to go up - to what those buildings are constructed of - to fire breaks around communities - to paying for an air suppression force that is capable of responding with bigger and better equipment. I do think the DC-10 has been flying - heard of a close call when a new CA on his first or second drop didn't plan for the massive CG change when they opened the doors - I guess it gets your attention - but supposedly that system has been working well - All this is second hand information - maybe someone out West has more up to date info.
See what's new [quote][b]
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f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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The DC-10 is flying today....out of Victorville. I don't know where it is being used, however....probably up in the LAX area. One of the Martin Mars is supposed to arrive at Lake Elsinore early this afternoon.
Roger____________________________________________________________________
On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:49 AM, seancrotty(at)aol.com (seancrotty(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | At one time while I was still an instructor flying KC-135's I went out to Scott AFB with my crew to fly "mock up" fire suppression missions" in the simulator - This was back in the early 90's - They were going to "replumb" some 135's and KC-10's for strictly this purpose and put them in a few guard units around the country - strictly for fire fighting - Those refueling pumps could put out something like a 1000 gals a min each and we had four of them - So the theory was make the "boom" bigger so more could head out at one time - the pumps were already plenty big.
The problem is this is a political hot button and always has been - the military taking over a "civilian" contract - The whole thing needs to get looked at - from where they allow buildings to go up - to what those buildings are constructed of - to fire breaks around communities - to paying for an air suppression force that is capable of responding with bigger and better equipment. I do think the DC-10 has been flying - heard of a close call when a new CA on his first or second drop didn't plan for the massive CG change when they opened the doors - I guess it gets your attention - but supposedly that system has been working well - All this is second hand information - maybe someone out West has more up to date info.
See what's new | Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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seancrotty(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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we need hundreds of these larger aircraft - and pilots and training programs to fly them safely -
It's a travesty what is going on -
Fly Safe - Fly Well
S> [quote][b]
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Re: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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There was talk at one time about putting A-10's into the role of firefighter. It could also serve as an C2 airplane. This was a serious pursuit.
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netmaster15(at)juno.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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How about hiring some of the hundreds of pilots who were forced into retirement at age 60 by the FAA. Many of them are already type rated and experienced in these aircraft. Where do we apply? I asked the Navy if I could come back on active flight status. The bastards told me they had no SPADS and no F4Us in the inventory. "It's a travesty what is going on"!!
Check Six,
Cliff Umscheid
-- seancrotty(at)aol.com wrote:
we need hundreds of these larger aircraft - and pilots and training programs to fly them safely -
It's a travesty what is going on -
Fly Safe - Fly Well
S>
_____________________________________________________________
Best Commodity Trading Platforms. Click Now!
[quote][b]
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fish(at)aviation-tech.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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Hoot,
The canidain scooper tankers were sitting at the Van Nuys
airport when the fires started and were some of the first
dispatched.
They have been on the ramp for better then a month now
waiting on work.
My Guard unit used (146th Air Wing, 115th AS) to have
C-130E's that were used for firefighting, but then we got
C-130J's and they have not been certified for firefighting
yet.
Laterrr
John Fischer
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: hkgibby(at)yahoo.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747
Supertanker.
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:39:12 +0000
[quote]
All,
Canadians (Bombardier) build a fire fighting a/c called
the CL-415 that is used all over the Med that, for some
reason, CA and FL don't have. CA uses a few on short term
lease basis that is too little too late. With the cost in
FL/GA and now CA fire damage running into the billions,
the U.S. should have several squadrons of these very
effective aircraft. Mind-boggling!!
Hoot
Jacksonville, FL
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
--
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phcarter(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker. |
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I worked with Evergreen a bit on applications for their SuperTanker. I have been involved in many large programs and technology development efforts. Sure, the FAA and the USFS were slow to be receptive (the status quo always is), but the true failure in the SuperTanker’s success was Evergreen themselves. This is a case of the “fish rots from the head”. Evergreen management made terrible decisions in investment, development, marketing, and certification process. Worst of all, not working with the FAA and the USFS closely enough (they worked closely, but Evergreen did not try to understand their options or care to understand the USG’s responsibilities), their airworthiness certification resulted in un-profitable restrictions that were not necessary. Evergreen brought it upon themselves, but those who need the capability are the ones that will miss it.
I agree with you, the aircraft is amazing and the chief pilot is an amazing guy. Many good people worked on the project. A tragic story so far.
Biggs
Yak-52, N6209F
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hal
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:00 AM
To: Yak List
Subject: SoCal fires and the Evergreen 747 Supertanker.
I continue to wonder why the Evergreen 747 fire bomber is not being used. Two years ago I saw video footage of this plane at work and had a chance to talk to their chief pilot. The aircraft is amazing in the load it carries, the choices for delivering the water/suppressant and its handling characteristics. It apparently has been tangled up in FAA paperwork. For whatever reason it is a shame it is not in use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvBRWTumoZI&NR=1 An Evergreen video on the supertanker.
In answering my own question:
March 2007:
[b]747 SUPERTANKER HEADS INTO THE SUNSET[/b]
Shocking news came out of Evergreen Aviation today: A stop work order has been issued for their multi-million dollar 747 firefighting aircraft and the Supertanker organization within Evergreen is being dismantled. An internal memo (not for publication) stated that "I regret to advise you that the Evergreen Supertanker program and Evergreen Supertanker Services Inc. have been given a "Stop Work" order from the Evergreen Corporate Headquarters... As of close of business, Tuesday, 21 March 2007, the Evergreen Supertanker office in Marana, AZ. will be closed for business." Bob McAndrew, former president of the Supertanker organization, was stunned by the turn of events and the entire affair casts doubt on the future of the DC-10 Supertanker, the main competitor to the 747.
After probing a little deeper, it appears that leadership in the US Forest Service (USFS) and the FAA were not receptive to having an aircraft that would be used for both fighting fires and also hauling cargo (in the off-season). This was one of the key features of the Evergreen program because it allowed them to earn a profit between fire seasons (reportedly around $180,000 a day as a cargo transport). This seems strange because in years past, that was how other air-tanker companies made money – fighting fires during the fire season and hauling cargo during the rest of the year. Since many of the aircraft types employed by private contractors lent themselves well to this "double-duty" (principally because they were originally transport aircraft, bombers, and other aircraft with large holds), it made the business feasible, if not lucrative. The question that arises is: When did the FAA (and USFS, for that matter) turn a baleful eye towards this practice?
Another point of interest surrounds both houses of Congress sending members in to grill the USFS about some matters of operation. What exactly are they looking for? Does the hasty cancellation of the 747 program have anything to do with this investigation? And how will the DC-10 come out in light of this startling turn of events? The situation becomes curiouser and curiouser! Comments? Contact me at marcher47(at)firebomberpublications.com (marcher47(at)firebomberpublications.com)
The 747 carries about 24,000 gallons vs 3,000 for the P3. I believe that the DC-10 carries 16 – 19,000 gallons.
[quote] | Quote: | | [b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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