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Brake Line Question
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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

Dear Kolb Friends -



Am seeking input on brake line components - need to know if I am using

decent quality parts. 



While taxiing in windy conditions last weekend, I applied heavy braking

force and blew out my right brake line.  "Blew out" meaning, the nylon brake

line separated from a Nylo-Seal union fitting along the brake line.



Unfortunately, my brake lines (Nylo-Seal nylon tubing, 1/4 inch) are not

continuous all the way from the master cylinder to the brake; they were too

short and I had to install a union to extend them.  



Initial plans are to simply reconnect the union to the brake line.  But I am

wondering if these Nylo-Seal fittings are good quality, or if there are

better fittings that other Kolb builders have used.



Any advice is helpful ... thanks!



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912

Cedar Crest, NM

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

Dennis, is the nylo-seal a plastic fitting?  Laboratory poly-flow 

fittings

are smaller and available in stainless or brass.  Not sure where to buy

them anymore.  Last ones I bought were at my job 10 years ago.

Most "big science" labs have them in stock.

  For metal lines the ultimate fittings are "swagelok"  -bulletproof.

-BB



On 22, Feb 2006, at 1:14 PM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>



 Dear Kolb Friends -



 Am seeking input on brake line components - need to know if I am using

 decent quality parts.



 While taxiing in windy conditions last weekend, I applied heavy braking

 force and blew out my right brake line.  "Blew out" meaning, the nylon 

 brake

 line separated from a Nylo-Seal union fitting along the brake line.



 Unfortunately, my brake lines (Nylo-Seal nylon tubing, 1/4 inch) are 

 not

 continuous all the way from the master cylinder to the brake; they 

 were too

 short and I had to install a union to extend them.



 Initial plans are to simply reconnect the union to the brake line.  

 But I am

 wondering if these Nylo-Seal fittings are good quality, or if there are

 better fittings that other Kolb builders have used.



 Any advice is helpful ... thanks!



 Dennis Kirby

 Mark-3, 912

 Cedar Crest, NM

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

I'm prob'ly gonna get flamed good for this, Dennis, but when I was putting 

Vamoose together I looked at those plastic brake lines and thought about 

years of negative experience with similar things in the desert.  Couldn't 

stand the idea of 'em, so changed to all steel lines.  'Course the thing is 

still ground-bound so it's all theory, but I still don't like the idea of 

plastic in such an area.  That said, I know many are flying with them and 

will undoubtedly defend them to the max.



Lar.                        Do not Archive.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

| Initial plans are to simply reconnect the union to the brake line. 

But I am

| wondering if these Nylo-Seal fittings are good quality, or if there 

are

| better fittings that other Kolb builders have used.

|

| Any advice is helpful ... thanks!

|

| Dennis Kirby

| Mark-3, 912

| Cedar Crest, NM



Based on experience of plastic lines on my MKIII and FS, you have the 

correct set up.  If I had to guess, I would guess it was an improper 

connection (mechanic error) that caused the fitting to blow the line.



My system gets worked out most every time I land with maximum braking. 

Never had a problem.  In fact, when I eventually lost both main wheels 

at Muncho Lake, BC, 1 July 2000, one of the brake lines and fittings 

on the wheel held fast, although the plastic line was misshaped a 

little (permanently).  I could have cut the line and reattached, but 

left it like it is.  Works great and is a good reminder of why it is 

that way every time I look at it.



Larry B:  Metal lines are not an improvement on Kolb aircraft.  I 

would think they are more difficult to work with, especially us 

amateurs.  



Take care,



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

I'm well aware that the plastic lines have done well for some, and some 

plastics are amazingly strong - when new.  My experience with plastics 

exposed to the desert sun has been, for the most part, extremely negative. 

Some, such as linear polyethylene seem to do fairly well, as do some black 

lines, but telling the difference is very difficult, if not impossible.  I 

don't want to take the chance.  Purpose made metal brake lines and fittings 

from NAPA are easy to work with and very strong, as well as being reasonably 

priced.  I doubt if the few ounces extra weight would make much, if any, 

difference.                      Lar.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

| I'm well aware that the plastic lines have done well for some, and 

some

| plastics are amazingly strong - when new.                       Lar.



Come on, Larry.



The plastic lines on Miss P'fer are very old, have spent a lot of time 

in the desert, and are still serviceable, or they were last time I 

flew her.



Probably burst next time we go fly.  



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Garvelink

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: HIXSON, TN

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

Are these lines uv protected?



Steve Garvelink



--

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

| Are these lines uv protected?

|

| Steve Garvelink



I have no idea if they are UV protected or not.  I do know they work 

and have a good deal of longevity on my airplane.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

Dennis You can have  steel braided lines made up there much stronger and they 

look better also



Ellery

do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Line Question

Took a look at Aircraft Spruce's web site.  They have Nylo-Seal tubing in natural 1500 psi and black 2500 psi.



Tried to find out some info on the black 2500 psi, but failed to come up with anything.  Neither says anything about UV protection, but the black "might" be better suited for life in a high UV environment than the natural, based on color alone.



Anybody got any info on Nylo-Seal.



I have never had a problem with it, nor have I heard of anyone else having a tubing failure, not a line blown off a fitting type failure.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

neilsenrmf(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

Dennis



I have had quite a bit of trouble with the original plastic/nylon what ever 

they are brake lines that came with my matco brakes. I have blown the lines 

off the fittings 2 or 3 times. I'm fairly certain that my problem was I 

didn't tighten them correctly. What I did find was that once they were blown 

off they seem to blow off again much easer. Since I replaced the lines with 

new ones and got them good and tight they haven't blown off again. I 

wouldn't be too concerned with the quality of the lines or fittings. Just 

get them installed correctly.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

Thanks to all who responded to my brake problems!



As Rick Neilsen and John Hauck suggested, my brake line likely blew out due

to my own ineptitude in assembling the thing in the first place.  Live &

learn.  Sounds like these "Nylo-Flow" fittings are acceptable, if installed

correctly.  Will make sure the fittings are well & tight next time.



On the question regarding protecting these nylon (not plastic) brake lines

from UV, I keep the sun off by wrapping spiral wrap (typically used on wire

bundles) on all exposed brake line.  I copied this idea from someone else on

this List (but I don't remember who).



Dennis Kirby

do not archive

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

FWIW -- I used braided-stainless brake lines on  my Cessna -- they  

worked fine & looked great but after a few hundred hours sprang a  

leak. Apparently the braid can  fracture & punch pinhole leaks in the  

teflon  tubing -- after quite a while. The drip gives you plenty of  

time to correct things before any serious leaks occur.

On Feb 23, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>



 Thanks to all who responded to my brake problems!



 As Rick Neilsen and John Hauck suggested, my brake line likely blew  

 out due

 to my own ineptitude in assembling the thing in the first place.   

 Live &

 learn.  Sounds like these "Nylo-Flow" fittings are acceptable, if  

 installed

 correctly.  Will make sure the fittings are well & tight next time.



 On the question regarding protecting these nylon (not plastic)  

 brake lines

 from UV, I keep the sun off by wrapping spiral wrap (typically used  

 on wire

 bundles) on all exposed brake line.  I copied this idea from  

 someone else on

 this List (but I don't remember who).



 Dennis Kirby

 do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Brake Line Question

Dennis K:



Your nylo-seal fitting problem and Rick N's is the first time I have heard of anyone having a problem.  Instructions indicate not to overtighten the fitting, so it would be easy enough to not tighten it to the properly.



Like I said yesterday, the right hand main wheel broke off when I crashed at Muncho Lake.  As I continued crashing, the 800X6 tire, wheel, brake, and axle were being drug along by that little plastic brake line.  It did not fail, but did put some permanent kinks and bends in it.  Have been flying with it that way for the past 5 years or so with no problems.  The stuff is tough.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

---

_________________
AzDave

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

In a message dated 2/23/2006 12:09:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

pelletier(at)cableone.net writes:

Geez  John, doesn't it make it hard to take off with all that stuff dragging  

along???



(Sorry - heh, heh, couldn't resist.)



See ya at  MV





I had to stop and think on that  one. I sat back and had a good belly laugh 

on that one. I think that is one of  the best friendly jabs yet.

 

                            Ed Diebel

 

          DO NOT  ARCHIEVE

kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: Brake Line Question

Group,



<<Your nylo-seal fitting problem and Rick N's is the first time I have 

heard of anyone having a problem.  Instructions indicate not to 

overtighten the fitting, so it would be easy enough to not tighten it to 

the properly.>>



Hesitate to jump in but there might be another cause of failure at the 

fitting.  Most of them work better with a special brass ferule inserted 

into the end of the plastic tube.  Or a short length of brass hobby shop 

tubing works just as well.  Just be sure to smooth the ends of the tube.



Tom Kuffel

Whitefish, MT

Building Original FireStar

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

In a message dated 2/23/06 1:47:50 PM Central Standard Time, 

kuffel(at)cyberport.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Group,

 

 <<Your nylo-seal fitting problem and Rick N's is the first time I have 

 heard of anyone having a problem.  Instructions indicate not to 

 overtighten the fitting, so it would be easy enough to not tighten it to 

 the properly.>>

 

 Hesitate to jump in but there might be another cause of failure at the 

 fitting.  Most of them work better with a special brass ferule inserted 

 into the end of the plastic tube.  Or a short length of brass hobby shop 

 tubing works just as well.  Just be sure to smooth the ends of the tube.

 

 Tom Kuffel

 Whitefish, MT

 Building Original FireStar

 

 


	


That brass ferrule is mandatory in my book. It is even available at the ACE 

hardware down the street.



Steve

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Line Question

 	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 2/23/2006 12:09:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, 

pelletier(at)cableone.net writes: 

Geez John, doesn't it make it hard to take off with all that stuff dragging 

along??? 



(Sorry - heh, heh, couldn't resist.) 



See ya at MV 

	




Brother Dave:



Not with a 912ULS and a 72" three blade Warp Drive prop!!!

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: Brake Line Question

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brother Dave:



 Not with a 912ULS and a 72" three blade Warp Drive prop!!!   



 --------

 John Hauck

 MKIII/912ULS

 hauck's holler, alabama


	


Awright, awright, don't rub it in --- Y'know I'd do anything ('cept spend 

money) for that combo.



AzDave

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14515#14515

_________________
AzDave

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