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Esqual v Lightning Question

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rickss

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Haymarket, VA

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

I read the 2003 EAA article, that someone posted the link too, about he Esqual. If I remember correctly, it says that you can get it in either fiber glass or carbon fiber and that the carbon fiber model was about 60 lbs. lighter. Does anyone know why Arion decided not to go with the carbon fiber with their design?



Thanks,

Rick

_________________
Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

In a message dated 11/3/2007 3:54:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  rickss(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I    read the 2003 EAA article, that someone posted the link too, about he Esqual.    If I remember correctly, it says that you can get it in either fiber glass or    carbon fiber and that the carbon fiber model was about 60 lbs. lighter. Does    anyone know why Arion decided not to go with the carbon fiber with their    design?



Thanks,

Rick

	


 

 While I dont recall the numbers,  the carbon Fiber Esqual was  substantually more money for a weight savings of 60 lbs.  They only sold a  few of them.   We all agreed it was not worth the money.

  

 The Lightning uses a small amount of carbon glass around the spar.

  

 The Lightning molders are using some state of the art techniques that  result in a lighter composit using cheaper materials that are easier to work  with.

  

 The carbon mat is rather unreasonably priced.  I would guess that to  do all carbon would nearly double the cost of the kit and save only 30-50  lbs.

  

 Just my opinion.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



See  [quote][b]

pequeajim

Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

I can't speak for Arion, but my guess is that the weight savings vs. the cost were prohibitive of going with CF over just glass.  They do use CF in stratagic parts of their design tho...



 On 11/3/07, rickss <rickss(at)verizon.net (rickss(at)verizon.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Lightning-List message posted by: "rickss" <rickss(at)verizon.net  (rickss(at)verizon.net)>



I read the 2003 EAA article, that someone posted the link too, about he Esqual. If I remember correctly, it says that you can get it in either fiber glass or carbon fiber and that the carbon fiber model was about 60 lbs. lighter. Does anyone know why Arion decided not to go with the carbon fiber with their design? 



Thanks,

Rick



--------

Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=143610#143610  [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

Doug is right on about the cost vs. weight savings.  For a 60 pound  weight savings the carbon fiber Esqual was 5 to 6 thousand dollars more  depending on the EURO exchange rate at the time.  Now it would  probably be even more since the Euro is stronger and carbon fiber cost continue  to go up as well.  Plus carbon fiber material is kind of hard to get.    It just is not worth that kind of cost for the type of sport aviation  mission we have.

 Blue skies,

 Buz  



See [quote][b]

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Carbon versus Glass

I just weighed my glass Esqual a few weeks ago. 325 kgs, 716 lbs. The only carbon version I know of weighed in at more than that. Had a few toys in but I have a set of old analogue instruments so I figure it was actually a heavier airframe. The cost difference was Â£4k 4 years ago.



I was talking with the Dyn Aero Ban Bi distributor in the UK and he said that Boeing and the airlines are buying up all the carbon that is being produced which is driving the price up.



The original weight of the Esqual in my build manual is stated at 275 kgs, this was when they met the 450 kgs MAUW required to be ULM aircraft. I do wonder where the extra 50 kgs comes from. The basic airframe doesn't have a big parts count so where did all the extra get added in?



Maybe Pete figured it out when he developed the Lightning in a similar concept?



I have to say when lifting them the wings feel a lot heavier than I would have thought they were going to be.......

.

Regards, Clive

Clive J

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: Date error

Just noticed I renamed the picture wrongly should be October 18

rickss

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Haymarket, VA

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Esqual v Lightning Question

Thanks for the reply, everyone. The prohibitive cost explanations do make since. 



That sure is a pretty airplane, Clive!



-Rick

_________________
Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

Hey Cherokee driver Rick,

     Don't know where you live, but you should  consider at trip to Tennessee to fly the demo Lightning (or to one of their  several dealers).  Or if you are near Virginia, give me a shout and I will  get you up in my modified Esqual LS (Lightning Stuff) - it is very close to the  Lightning in terms of how it flies and performance.  If all you have ever  flown is Pipers and Cessnas you are in for a real treat.  Sport aircraft  like the Lightning are a ball to fly.  The control response and stick feel  is amazing, not to mention the performance on such low fuel burns.   You will love it.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz



See what's new at [quote][b]

rickss

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Haymarket, VA

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Esqual v Lightning Question

Hey Buz,



I am in Virginia, based at CJR and would love to see your airplane. I did a short demo of a Lightning about a month ago at Green Landings and really enjoyed it. Where are you based?



-Rick



quote="N1BZRich(at)aol.com"]Hey Cherokee driver Rick,

     Don't know where you live, but you should  consider at trip to Tennessee to fly the demo Lightning (or to one of their  several dealers).  Or if you are near Virginia, give me a shout and I will  get you up in my modified Esqual LS (Lightning Stuff) - it is very close to the  Lightning in terms of how it flies and performance.  If all you have ever  flown is Pipers and Cessnas you are in for a real treat.  Sport aircraft  like the Lightning are a ball to fly.  The control response and stick feel  is amazing, not to mention the performance on such low fuel burns.ï¿½  You will love it.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz



See what's new at  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

Rick,

     I live in Williamsburg and normally keep the Esqual  here at JGG, but this weekend I brought my Cub up from Franklin (FKN), so the  Esqual is in my hangar there.  Depending on when you come down, we can meet  at either place.  Just let me know when you want to drop by.

 Blue Skies,

 Buz



See what's new at [quote][b]

vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: Esqual v Lightning Question

As was mentioned before ...with companys like boeing and airbus buying it all up it is hard to get , and the stuff we do get is very expensive.....So we do not see the need for it except in a few areas, it could be done but would be past along to you the builder and right now at a cost of 15-20K maybe....

   

  Nick

  Arion Aircraft



Jim Langley <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]I can't speak for Arion, but my guess is that the weight savings vs. the cost were prohibitive of going with CF over just glass.  They do use CF in stratagic parts of their design tho...



  On 11/3/07, rickss <rickss(at)verizon.net (rickss(at)verizon.net)> wrote:   [quote][b]

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