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lschreck(at)consolidated.
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 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm about 6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the beginning stages of designing the electrical system for a light IFR - RV7. Z-11 with an aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now. My question is about the replacement of the LR-3 controller with seperate regulator/OV protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8 drawings.
I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and can't wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and the answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you be more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the OV/LV concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find the AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor?
Thanks,
Loren
[quote][b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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At 04:18 PM 11/5/2007 -0600, you wrote:
| Quote: | First time on the list though I have been lurking for a while. I'm about
6 months from actually laying down any wire but am in the beginning stages
of designing the electrical system for a light IFR - RV7. Z-11 with an
aux battery or Z-13/8 are front runners right now. My question is about
the replacement of the LR-3 controller with seperate regulator/OV
protection/LV warning on the latest Z-13/8 drawings.
I attended Bob's seminar last weekend in Houston, learned a lot and can't
wait to get wiring. I asked about this change in the diagrams and the
answer had something to do with philosophical differences. Can you be
more specific? I like the idea of one controller that covers the OV/LV
concerns as well. Is the reason for the change a cost issue or a
reliability one? If I do go with the updated drawings where do I find the
AEC9005-101 Low Volatage monitor?
|
There are as many ways to "cook up" a successful,
cost effective system as there are cooks. You can
go any number of ways. The LR3 delivers on its
performance promise as does the combination of
components depicted in Z13/8. The latter combination
is less expensive but more pieces . . . and the
generic "ford" regulator is not adjustable. But
there are adjustable regulators of other pedigree
too.
The Z-figures are primarily illustrations of
architecture. The choice of parts used within
the these architectures is open to a variety
of suitable choices which includes the LR3,
components shown, and others.
The AEC9005 is being replaced by the AEC9011
which is described in preliminary data
at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
This is a three-channel device which may
be used to watch for LV conditions on
two sources and latches a relay on
an OV condition on a third source. This
makes it suited for use as any combination
of the three tasks.
The circuitry has been completed and I'm
working out packaging details so as to
reduce production costs. This product
will be available in a month or so but
there are any number of LV warning
products that would do the job too.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
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dksington
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: LR-3 Controller |
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I have started wiring my aircraft and have wired a LR3-C controller as per instructions (whilst following Z-11). I have realised, though, that I have an internally regulated alternator (55A unit made by Air-Tec, supplied by Mattituck with my TMX IO-360). Can I 'double-up' on the regulator whilst maintaining the OV protection & LV indication or do I need to change something?
Many thanks for the help in advance, and for the Aerolectric Connection - a truly excellent publication.
Derek Sington.
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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At 01:45 PM 11/6/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I have started wiring my aircraft and have wired a LR3-C controller as per
instructions (whilst following Z-11). I have realised, though, that I
have an internally regulated alternator (55A unit made by Air-Tec,
supplied by Mattituck with my TMX IO-360). Can I 'double-up' on the
regulator whilst maintaining the OV protection & LV indication or do I
need to change something?
|
No, the LR3 is not compatible with the internally
regulated alternator. You can . . .
(1) have the alternator modified to bring out the
field lead for external regulation by means of the
LR3C or . . .
(2) wire per Z-24 as explained in . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
in anticipation of changing out for the AEC9004
Alternator Controller for IR alternators.
| Quote: | Many thanks for the help in advance, and for the Aerolectric Connection -
a truly excellent publication.
|
Thank you for the kind words. I'm pleased
that you find it a good return on investment.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
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dksington
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: Re: LR-3 Controller |
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Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation mechanism?
Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)?
Thank you for your patience with my questions
Derek.
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mprather(at)spro.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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Wound field alternators are regulated by adjusting the amount of current
going through the field windings - several Amps at high output. The LR3-C
is designed for an alternator like this. Additionally, the LR3-C is a
linear regulator meaning that it's field output is not switched on and off
(in a pulse width modulated method), but instead continuously adjusted so
as to provide the correct field current (and be electrically quiet while
doing it). If the bus voltage sags a little, the field current is
increased a little.
Many/most internally regulated alternators don't take their field current
from the sense line, but from a connection to the B-lead through the
regulator circuit. If the LR3-C were wired "around" the internally
regulated alternator, I predict the output would, at best, be unstable.
As the bus voltage sagged, the LR3-C would increase the field
voltage/current, the internal regulator on the alternator would think the
bus voltage was rising quickly, and reduce the field current - at least
with some bus dynamics.
Additionally, I suspect the LR3-C would be operating at the very edge of
its design curve - the current through the sense line on an internally
regulated alternator may be exceedingly low, which is not what the LR3-C
is likely designed for - it's leakage current through the field output
might be higher than what the sense line will use - if it's driving a FET
for instance.
Also, I suspect that the overvoltage feature of the LR3-C might not work
on an internally regulated alternator as some fail modes on these
alternators don't respond to grounding the sense lead - the alternator
continues be unregulated.
The bottom line is the that the LR3-C is designed to enhance performance
in a certain type of circuit, and this isn't it. If you need the features
like independent over voltage protection you'll be better off adding a
circuit just for that. I'd imagine that you could sell the LR3-C for
nearly what you paid for it. Or, buy a compatible, externally regulated
alternator.
Regards,
Matt-
| Quote: |
Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it
not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as
such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn
on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to
it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the
previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring
against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation
mechanism?
Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master
contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)?
Thank you for your patience with my questions
Derek.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144823#144823
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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At 10:25 AM 11/9/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it
not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as
such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn
on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to
it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the
previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring
against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation
mechanism?
|
No, the output of an LR3C is intended to directly
drive the field winding of an alternator and it expects
to see a nearly instantaneous response to TINY changes
of DC voltage. The LR3 output varies from as low as 1v in
cruising flight with light loads on the alternator to
some value just below bus voltage. The input signal
expected by an internally regulated alternator is either
fully-on or fully-off . . . and for most alternators,
turning the input command off after the alternator comes
alive has no effect. An externally regulated alternator
brings the field lead out for connection to the regulator
and has a diagram much like so:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/External_Regulator.jpg
. . . while the internally regulated machine looks like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Internal_Regulator.jpg
There's LOTS of "stuff" in that box labeled "REG" that
would totally bumfoozle an LR3 or any other external
regulator.
| Quote: | Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master
contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)?
|
Don't know about Van's products. Dimensions for the
S701-1 are here:
http://tinyurl.com/3dnmcg
| Quote: | Thank you for your patience with my questions
|
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
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dksington
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: Re: LR-3 Controller |
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Thank you for the swift replies. I will order the S701-1 and wire it up as per your instructions. The fog is beginning to clear...
Derek.
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: LR-3 Controller |
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Matt is very close. Permit me to refine the response
a bit further . . .
At 10:25 AM 11/9/2007 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Forgive my ignorance, but why would the LR3-C be incompatible? Does it
not merely send 'switch-on, switch-off' commands to the alternator, and as
such as far as the alternator is concerned it is merely being told to turn
on or off? If this is the case (and I am guessing that there is more to
it) then am I not simply doubling up on alternator control, and with the
previously documented problems with internal regulation am insuring
against a reasonably likely future failure of the internal regulation
mechanism?
|
No, the output of an LR3 is linear DC voltage intended to
drive the field winding of an alternator at up to 3 Amps;
it expects to see a nearly instantaneous response to TINY changes
of DC voltage. The LR3 output varies from as low as 1v in
cruising flight with light loads on the alternator to
some max value just below bus voltage. An internally regulated
alternator expects a fully-on or fully-off command signal;
not a 'throttled', variable DC level. Turning the input
command off after the alternator comes alive has no effect
on most alternators.
For external regulation the field lead is brought out for
connection to the regulator and has a diagram much like so:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/External_Regulator.jpg
. . . while the internally regulated machine looks like this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Internal_Regulator.jpg
There's LOTS of "stuff" in that box labeled "REG" that
would totally bumfoozle an LR3 or any other external
regulator.
| Quote: | Are the dimensions of the S701-1 the same as the stock Vans' master
contactor (ES 24115) (which I already have attached to my firewall)?
|
Don't know about Van's products. Dimensions for the
S701-1 are here:
http://tinyurl.com/3dnmcg
| Quote: | Thank you for your patience with my questions
|
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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