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mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

These come recommended:



http://www.trioavionics.com/ez_pilot.htm



http://www.navaid-devices.com/hardware.htm



$1770 and $1300, respectively.

Regards,



Matt-

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mosquito-56(at)hotmail.com>



 LMAO, now suggesting I replace a $2,000 overly expensive system with a

 $4,000 system. What am I missing?

 I can't seem to find an autopilot cheaper then the dynon d-100

 Don



 --------

 Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx

   Apologies if I seem antagonistic.

   I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals

 for assistance in this thing we call life.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140572#140572

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Hello Matt,



my experience with Navaid are in a way I would not recommend them.



However trutrak is missing in your link list 



<http://www.trutrakap.com/autopilot2_2.htm>



MOHO



Werner



Matt Prather wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 These come recommended:



 http://www.trioavionics.com/ez_pilot.htm



 http://www.navaid-devices.com/hardware.htm



 $1770 and $1300, respectively.

 Regards,



 Matt-

   

> 

> <mosquito-56(at)hotmail.com>

>

> LMAO, now suggesting I replace a $2,000 overly expensive system with a

> $4,000 system. What am I missing?

> I can't seem to find an autopilot cheaper then the dynon d-100

> Don

>

> --------

> Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx

>   Apologies if I seem antagonistic.

>   I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions between individuals

> for assistance in this thing we call life.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140572#140572

>

>

mosquito56

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Laredo, Tx

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

Great to see so many people putting in their 2 cents. I will be monitoring this subject since everything is as clear as mud and alot of fun. 

  Lots of great info. 

  Thanx much for the info. Had a ball.

Gday Don

_________________
Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
.

enewton57(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

The Dynon D100 is an autopilot?  Since when?



Eric Newton



---

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

No discussion of instrument panel design should go without a reference to the three excellent Kitplanes articles by Ricardo Price on Panel Design.



Go to the e-magazine section of Kitplanes online. Download the pdf's.



This series of articles has prevented me from publishing on the same topic because I think he said it all. Remarkable!



Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." 

-- Howard Aiken

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Yup Trutrak digitrak or a Pictorial pilot (same thing but with a turn

coordinator display) is all you need.



Link the above to a handheld GPS and have a steam guage ASI and

Altimeter.



Frank 



--

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Don,



Regarding any and all aircraft avionics or electrical systems you will soon

discover that they are constantly changing and improving all the time.  As a

result, like many of us, your original choices and decisions will change

frequently over time.



No subject can ever close... We all are here for one reason, to learn from

each other to do the best we can possibly do.  Opinions will always vary and

sometimes the repertoire can become quite lively, but in the end we will

learn something...and that is the goal. 



Here is my ongoing decision model from my website...

http://www.flightinnovations.com/considerations.html.



Welcome to our class.

Bret Smith

RV-9A (91314)

Mineral Bluff, GA

www.FlightInnovations.com



--

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Bret,



As you said, opinions differ. I looked at your site, and while you have made 

some excellent choises, I wonder why you don't include at least the very 

basic flight instruments that do not rely on electric power.



Also, having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit overdone. Most 

GPS-based equipment accepts NMEA protocol. It's not hard to take one GPS 

receiver and feed the NMEA protocol into all equipment that requires 

position/speed information.



. And so another episode in the discussion opens.. 



Rob



---

sttwig

Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Yakima, WA

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Frank,



You suggest that all you need is Pictorial Pilot.  What is you thoughts on

the ADI Pilot?



Steve



[quote] 

 <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>



 Yup Trutrak digitrak or a Pictorial pilot (same thing but with a turn

 coordinator display) is all you need.



 Link the above to a handheld GPS and have a steam guage ASI and

 Altimeter.



 Frank



 --

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Good Morning All,

  

 I have no doubt that confidence in the new electronics will eventually  change my mind, but any airplane that I fly will have standard, ancient,  steam gauge, airspeed, altimeter and mechanical turn needle  instruments (Definitely NOT a turn coordinator!) with a ball  inclinometer installed within the turn needle instrument.

  

 About twenty hours of good training will allow anyone to control any  airplane safely with just those three operative instruments.

  

 Figure a thousand bucks for the training, which will stay with you for  life, and another thousand or so for the three instruments. 

  

 Beyond that, everything else can be as fancy as possible, but as long as I  can see that needle, ball, and airspeed, I know that I can survive the flight.  

  

 Relying on an autopilot to get me out of trouble is a bit foreign to my  philosophy, though I can see where I may someday accept such equipment as being  reliable enough to bet my life on it. 

  

 Meanwhile, that couple of thousand bucks will give me great comfort while  the modern stuff is proving it's suitability to the task!

  

 Happy Skies,

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois



  [quote][b]

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Steve,



For a VFR airplane I think an ADI pilot is over the top. I use a

Pictorial Pilot in IMC as a backup to the Dynon. Remember that for IFR

flying you have to be sure you can safely fly the airplane if your

primary instrument (the Dynon D100 in my case) goes 'phut'.



In this case I simply use the Pictorial pilot and the altimeter/ASI for

my backup flying. During my instrument training we tested all sorts of

unusual attitude recovery with the Dynon covered up (my CFII is also

building an RV7 so we were both very keen to fully test all the failure

modes). Even with an RV which is a handful when flying in IMC the

Pictorial pilot was all that was needed.



Remember too that when pilots loose control (spatial disorientation) its

99% a failure in the roll mode...I.e you don't lose pitch and end up

pointing straight down/up..its a case of the thing rolls over on its

back...then you might lose pitch control.



Sure an ADI pilot would be nice but its definatly not a need.



But as I said previously the only reason I would consider a PP for VFR

is for a WX emergency..Its still more than you need but nice to

physically see that your wings are level. With the Digitrak you don't

have any visual feedback if you ended up in the clouds.



They sure are nice autopilots!



Frank

Zodiac 400hours.VFR

Rv7a 220 hours..IFR



--

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Amen to that, Bob. That's how you got to be "Old  Bob" in the first place 

  

 Blue skies,

 Rob

 [quote]   ---

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Rob,

You asked "I  wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments that do  not rely on electric power."

    You will  see that I am planning on the Z-13/8.  This wiring structure incorporates a  dual buss with an 8amp alternate alternator to power essential items should the  main 60amp alternator go TU.  The PRIMARY backup is the TT two-axis  autopilot.  Triple backup is the TT ADI (with it's own backup battery and  GPS.  No need for vacuum instruments with this level of  redundancy. You said "having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit  overdone."

     The primary  GPS is the Garmin GNS430.  The antenna will be mounted under the  glareshield (under a plexiglass panel) and will support the EFIS as well as XM  WX.  The alt GPS is part of the Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS and is purely a  VFR backup.  It's antenna will be mounted beside the Garmin antenna.   Having dual antennas removes the single point of failure in the design.   The only other GPS is the backup for the TT ADI.  I'm not sure where you  get a 4th GPS antenna although it doesn't really matter since these small  antennas together, side-by-side will fit in the palm of your hand.   

  

 This model is a tried and true design  and is currently being flown by several fellow builders an a rock-solid IFR  platform.  Having dual P-Mags offers an electrically independent engine as  well.  To my understanding, the only "dark and stormy" scenario that would  defeat the design is an in-flight fire.  In which case there is little one  can do except land ASAP.

  

 I welcome your  critique.

 



Bret Smith

RV-9A  (91314)

Mineral Bluff,  GA

www.FlightInnovations.com



-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of Rob Turk

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 1:09 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Instrument panel beginner



--> AeroElectric-List message posted by:  "Rob Turk" <matronics(at)rtist.nl>



Bret,



As you said, opinions  differ. I looked at your site, and while you have made some excellent choises, I  wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments that do  not rely on electric power.



Also, having (4) GPS antenna's on-board  sounds a bit overdone. Most GPS-based equipment accepts NMEA protocol. It's not  hard to take one GPS receiver and feed the NMEA protocol into all equipment that  requires position/speed information.



.. And so another episode in the  discussion opens.. 



Rob



---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Bret,

  

  I would include an altimeter and ASI as  minimum backup, together with a compass. No need for any vacuum stuff, just a  static and pitot.

  

Relying on  redundant electronics is fine, and if you trust your gear, go for it. My  worry would be something like a lightning surge. Your electrical circuits are  not immune to picking up surges from nearby lightning, and a single surge can  wipe out basically everything you have that lets you navigate the plane. Not  that you should be flying anywhere near such conditions, but sometime you might  get caught in bad weather.

  

 You have plenty antennas to pick up a surge. Maybe  someone with more theoretical knowledge can go into details, but nearby  lightning can generate fields of something like 10 volts/foot. Having  a number of antennas several feet apart can easily cause a potential surge of a  few hundred volts to hit your precious gear. 

  

  The reference to 4 GPS antennas is taken directly  from your site, I didn't try to match your number to actual equipment. It says:  "Antennas:  I will be installing (2) COM antennas, (1)  NAV antenna, (1) Marker Beacon antenna, (4)GPS antennas,  (1) ELT antenna and (1) Transponder antenna.". 

  

 Hth,

  

Rob

 [quote]   ---

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Bret - 

 

 Enjoyed your site, and wanted to to know I am adapting your paint scheme to a Bearhawk (file attached- dark color is a bright,deep orange over a complimentary yellow shade - used for visibility in the bush).  I like the simplicity and I think it lends itself well to the Bearhawk lines.  

 

 Using your ideas for instrumentation, what are your thoughts on instrumentation for a VFR airplane, that might occasionally, file special VFR to get out of a low ceiling situation flying into clear air?  

 

 M. Haught 

 [img]cid:part1.09060701.07010404(at)madisoncounty.net[/img]

 

 Bret Smith wrote: [quote]             

 Rob,

 You asked "I wonder why you don't include at least the very basic flight instruments that do not rely on electric power."

     You will see that I am planning on the Z-13/8.  This wiring structure incorporates a dual buss with an 8amp alternate alternator to power essential items should the main 60amp alternator go TU.  The PRIMARY backup is the TT two-axis autopilot.  Triple backup is the TT ADI (with it's own backup battery and GPS.  No need for vacuum instruments with this level of redundancy.   You said "having (4) GPS antenna's on-board sounds a bit overdone."

       The primary GPS is the Garmin GNS430.  The antenna will be mounted under the glareshield (under a plexiglass panel) and will support the EFIS as well as XM WX.  The alt GPS is part of the Grand Rapids Horizon 1 EFIS and is purely a VFR backup.  It's antenna will be mounted beside the Garmin antenna.  Having dual antennas removes the single point of failure in the design.  The only other GPS is the backup for the TT ADI.  I'm not sure where you get a 4th GPS antenna although it doesn't really matter since these small antennas together, side-by-side will fit in the palm of your hand.  

    

   This model is a tried and true design and is currently being flown by several fellow builders an a rock-solid IFR platform.  Having dual P-Mags offers an electrically independent engine as well.  To my understanding, the only "dark and stormy" scenario that would defeat the design is an in-flight fire.  In which case there is little one can do except land ASAP.

    

   I welcome your critique.

   



   

   

   Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

   

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Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

Good points Rob,  I failed to mention that the GRT EIS  will be able to display altitude and airspeed as well.  I suppose a direct  lightening strike could do some damage, however, as long as the engine is  running I have options...such as pulling out my handheld COM and GPS.   Hopefully with only two exposed antennas (COM 1 and XPR) I can minimize the risk  of electrical surge.

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob  Turk

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 5:43 PM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re:  Instrument panel beginner

 

 Bret,

  

  I would include an altimeter and ASI as  minimum backup, together with a compass. No need for any vacuum stuff, just a  static and pitot.

  

Relying on  redundant electronics is fine, and if you trust your gear, go for it. My  worry would be something like a lightning surge. Your electrical circuits are  not immune to picking up surges from nearby lightning, and a single surge can  wipe out basically everything you have that lets you navigate the plane. Not  that you should be flying anywhere near such conditions, but sometime you might  get caught in bad weather.

  

 You have plenty antennas to pick up a surge. Maybe  someone with more theoretical knowledge can go into details, but nearby  lightning can generate fields of something like 10 volts/foot. Having  a number of antennas several feet apart can easily cause a potential surge of a  few hundred volts to hit your precious gear. 

  

  The reference to 4 GPS antennas is taken directly  from your site, I didn't try to match your number to actual equipment. It says:  "Antennas:  I will be installing (2) COM antennas, (1)  NAV antenna, (1) Marker Beacon antenna, (4)GPS antennas,  (1) ELT antenna and (1) Transponder antenna.". 

  

 Hth,

  

Rob

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

dekano

Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Instrument panel beginner

For Visual rules flying you really don't need gyro instruments. If I 

were doing another 601 (I owned one for 400 hours) I'd put a steam 

driven ASI an altimeter and spend the rest of my money on a trutrak 

pictorial pilot...Yes an autopilot will be far more useful in this 

airplane (at least if you intend to use it for cross country flying) 

Dekano

----------------------------------------

Lapruebacigars

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Instrument panel beginner

WOw...thats word forword almost exactly the same post I wrote about a

month back...



Even my 601 I sold with 400 hours on it!



Frank 



--

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