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uncoordinated turns

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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

Dave,

trying to understand what you are saying.  Try this one, on take off with 60mph indicated, make a turn, flat.  The kit Will do it.  But then again I do have Vg's.  I do flat turns over the runway 5ft off all the time, I maintain 60mph when I do it.  All this is good to be able to do, what do YOU do when a bird is in your flight path, on take off and just pulling off the runway.  I flat turn out of the way, if you bank you could hit ground with a wing tip, plus you loose sight of what you are trying to miss, not only that you turn, literally.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: uncoordinated turns

On Nov 10, 2007, at 7:05 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Try this one, on take off with 60mph indicated, make a turn, flat.


	


I also try to land on the numbers by doing sharp side slips right 

before the threshold. But why do your make them flat?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: Re: uncoordinated turns

why do we do anything.  to spice things up, to make a change.  don't want boredom to ...       



also, that's a flat turn on take off not landing.  Although I've done flat turns on landing, usually when changing my mind at the last second for the grass runway.  That in itself is very good practice, last minute change that is.  What do you do when something is on the runway?

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

On Nov 11, 2007, at 5:26 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What do you do when something is on the runway?


	


It hasn't happened yet. I am lucky to fly from a place where I can see 

around for at least a half a mile without obstructions. But if it 

should happen, I hope I'll do the right thing, whatever it is.



Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

rudderdancer

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Victorville, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: uncoordinated turns

I'm new to flying the Kitfox.  I have a model II and I've been working to regain my skills out at a local dry lake.  I too have noticed the different yaw and coordination traits of the Kitfox.  It is getting better with practice and I'm sure it'll get second nature in time.  I was wondering if when it comes time to recover my plane if maybe giving it a vertical similar to the Maule M-5 wouldn't help keep it's heading easier?  Has anyone ever tried this?  It seems like it could be done.



Thanks for any feedback,

Jack

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: uncoordinated turns

 	  rudderdancer wrote: 	
		  I'm new to flying the Kitfox.  I have a model II and I've been working to regain my skills out at a local dry lake.  I too have noticed the different yaw and coordination traits of the Kitfox.  It is getting better with practice and I'm sure it'll get second nature in time.  I was wondering if when it comes time to recover my plane if maybe giving it a vertical similar to the Maule M-5 wouldn't help keep it's heading easier?  Has anyone ever tried this?  It seems like it could be done.



Thanks for any feedback,

Jack 	




please explain vertical similar to the maule m-5

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: uncoordinated turns

Jack sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I was wondering if when it comes time to recover my plane if 

maybe giving it a vertical similar to the Maule M-5 wouldn't help 

keep it's heading easier?  Has anyone ever tried this?  It seems 

like it could be done.


	


I assume you are talking about the extended leading edge of the 

vertical stabilizer that curves into the top of the fuselage, right? 

The dorsal fin, as it were?



I did that on my Kitfox.  We welded a piece of steel tube from the 

rear of the turtledeck to a point about 8 or 9 inches up the front of 

the vertical tail, with a smooth curve just forward of the tail.  We 

also welded in a couple of vertical stand-offs to support the span. 

I've highlighted this portion in the attached photo.



It made covering that area easier and I sure like the look.  I don't 

know how much improvement in yaw stability it provides because I 

don't have anything to compare it to.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:40 am Post subject: Re: uncoordinated turns

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a model II and I've been working to regain my skills out at a local dry lake. I too have noticed the different yaw and coordination traits of the Kitfox. 	


Jack,  it sound like your are just noticing more effort that you might be used to of co-ordinating your feet and hands.    Your Kitfox 2 has no aileron differential built in so you will be more prone to more adverse yaw.



It is likely very manageable as you learn to fly it.   I think John Mc Bean  might sell a kit to  make aileron differential on your Model 2.  Model IV  up had it already built in and makes a better  flying Kitfox  in my opinion. 

That being said the Kitfox 2 is a far superior flying plane to many other brands  that are very popular.  adding more vert stab  might help but I doubt it will do a whole lot for you alone.

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rudderdancer

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Victorville, CA

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: uncoordinated turns

Kitfoxmike, MikeG, and Dave,



     Thanks for the replies.  Attached is a picture of a Maule M-5 with the type of vertical I was referring to.

     By the way, I went out to the dry lake again this afternoon for practice.  It's getting a bit better each time.  Even the landings went better.  The fox really does get off the ground quickly and climbs out steeply.



Regards,

Jack

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

If you put as much of a blended strake as the Maule on your plane you may

want to consider also putting an offset into your vertical stab and the

strake to help counteract the rotation of the propeller.



Reminds me of an older Stinson.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: uncoordinated turns

Yea, those 582's sure do put out a lot of torque.



[quote] From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: uncoordinated turns

 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:17:16 -0330

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 

 If you put as much of a blended strake as the Maule on your plane you may

 want to consider also putting an offset into your vertical stab and the

 strake to help counteract the rotation of the propeller.

 

 Reminds me of an older Stinson.

 

 Noel

 

 

 

 > --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

It's not  the torque of the engine I was thinking about.  It's the fact  that the air from the prop swirls around the fuselage in the direction of the  prop rotation.  Several low and slow designs have the offset vertical  stab.  The problem with is is if you change the direction of prop rotation,  like my 582 to 912 change out, the offset will be going the wrong  way.

  

 You  didn't notice yourself pressing the right pedal at cruise?

  

 Noel

 [quote]   

   --

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

On Nov 16, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You didn't notice yourself pressing the right pedal at cruise?


	


Here is something I never understood. When I turn left, I feel the 

plane in a very coordinated attitude. I don't have to look, I know that 

the ball is in the center. But when I turn right, I am seldom well 

coordinated. Usually, I need to entirely remove my foot from the right 

pedal.

Am I the only one to experience that on a 912 or Jabiru?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

Same thing in a glider plane, harder to turn right (to the right) then left 

for beginners, at least for right handed pilots.



Men also "only" use the left brain half, Woman ??



with the cooling fan in front it become more complicated.



Jan



---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: uncoordinated turns

On Nov 17, 2007, at 11:48 AM, JC Propeller Design wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Same thing in a glider plane, harder to turn right (to the right) then 

 left for beginners, at least for right handed pilots.


	


Wow! I didn't know that, Jan. Thanks.



Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



do not archive

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: uncoordinated turns

Woman??  Now that's a loaded question.



I'm not going there on the grounds I may not like the answer, even though

I'm not married!



Noel



[quote] --

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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