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Tyco and all its problems

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: Tyco and all its problems

Sorry your having so much trouble with this procurement

my friend. Allied Electronics, for one, carries the

Kilovac series devices. The catalog page is:



http://tinyurl.com/3e3hyj



I believe you want the Allied Stock #433-0016,

Kilovac Model EV200AAANA, Tyco part #1618002-7



The part you have may be this same part.



The data sheet for this part can be had at:



http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf

It shouldn't be hard to confirm with a multimeter

that your holding current is on the order of .15A



Hope this helps.



Bob . . .

At 09:58 AM 11/8/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Perhaps someone can give me direction in a particularly troublesome regime.

I refer to "TYCO". At somebody's suggestion, I dialled up:

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf,

which gave me a somewhat expensive solution to the low output of the Rotax

dynamo on my 914.  Its advantage was to reduce the holding current to a

large contactor to a small percentage of one Amp.  I believe Ron Parigoris

was the source of my info, but others had added to the list as well.

The info sheet gives the description of the device as -

"TYCO EV200 series contactor with 1 form A (SPST-NO)" and under the photo

is:

"EV200 Series Contactor

(CZONKAR Relay, Type III)". What the significance of the 'Czonka ' is, is

left to the customer to divine.

I attempted to order a copy from the Canadaian office, which after 10

minutes of opting button 1 or other, left me talking to a clerk who admitted

no knowledge of contactors. I then tried to order from the US office and got

another series of button choices which promised technical assistance and

delivered only the names of 6 women with no hint of their duties - all of

this on long distance. I finally managed to find a sales clerk somewhere in

USA who promised to deliver the required contactor and yesterday I picked it

up in NY and paid the requisite duties and import tariffs only to find that

it bears no connection with the above, but boasts a "GIGAVAC GX11BAA" tag. I

have no idea what its holding current is, [try to find a column on the spec

page which lists that] nor can I find anyone (human that is) who is willing

to clarify the discrepancy.

         Failing education from Bob or Ron - or any other kind correspondent

- I am going to recommend staying a hundred miles from

TYCO/CZONKA/KILOVAC/GIGAVAC and its myriad ancillaries.

Cheers, Ferg

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Drdavevk30(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: Tyco and all its problems

These EV200 contactors are available from electronics suppliers.  I got mine online from Newark electronics.  They had several configurations in stock.



Dave Doucette

drdavevk30(at)cs.com

"Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO(at)rac.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Perhaps someone can give me direction in a particularly troublesome regime.

I refer to "TYCO". At somebody's suggestion, I dialled up:

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf,

which gave me a somewhat expensive solution to the low output of the Rotax

dynamo on my 914.  Its advantage was to reduce the holding current to a

large contactor to a small percentage of one Amp.  I believe Ron Parigoris

was the source of my info, but others had added to the list as well.

The info sheet gives the description of the device as -

"TYCO EV200 series contactor with 1 form A (SPST-NO)" and under the photo

is:

"EV200 Series Contactor

(CZONKAR Relay, Type III)". What the significance of the 'Czonka ' is, is

left to the customer to divine.

I attempted to order a copy from the Canadaian office, which after 10

minutes of opting button 1 or other, left me talking to a clerk who admitted

no knowledge of contactors. I then tried to order from the US office and got

another series of button choices which promised technical assistance and

delivered only the names of 6 women with no hint of their duties - all of

this on long distance. I finally managed to find a sales clerk somewhere in

USA who promised to deliver the required contactor and yesterday I picked it

up in NY and paid the requisite duties and import tariffs only to find that

it bears no connection with the above, but boasts a "GIGAVAC GX11BAA" tag. I

have no idea what its holding current is, [try to find a column on the spec

page which lists that] nor can I find anyone (human that is) who is willing

to clarify the discrepancy.

    Failing education from Bob or Ron - or any other kind correspondent

- I am going to recommend staying a hundred miles from

TYCO/CZONKA/KILOVAC/GIGAVAC and its myriad ancillaries.

Cheers, Ferg

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dballin

Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 11

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Tyco and all its problems

Another solution is Gigavac.  Their GX11 is basically the same as the Tyco ev200, but less expensive.



http://www.gigavac.com/products/relays/gigavac/index.htm



I had a very good experience ordering from them.  They evidently are a bunch of ex Tyco people,  are very knowledgeable and friendly.



Dan Ballin

Legacy #286

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Tyco and all its problems

dballin a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Another solution is Gigavac.  Their GX11 is basically the same as the Tyco ev200, but less expensive.



 http://www.gigavac.com/products/relays/gigavac/index.htm

   


	


Dan,



It seems the GX11 hold current is about 700 mA, whereas the EV200 is 140 

mA....

Or am I missing the obvious ?



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

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Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Tyco and all its problems

Gilles, You didn't miss anything. The reasons for using the EV200aaana or the GX11 are more than just hold current. (Gigavac also has a lower hold current model if you ask)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is mostly a repost.  



Compare--- 

____________________Type 70__________GX-11 



Weight.........................12.5 Oz.............18 Oz 

Temp...........................50 DegC...........75-85 DegC 

(50 degC 122 F) makes the type 70 unusable.... 

Position........................Cap Down..........Any 

Environmental...............Dust-Proof.........Hermetically sealed 

Coil Suppression............Must be added....Built in 

B&C Type 70 uses diodes, GX-11 uses transorbs (SnapJacks!) 

Continuous Amps............80 at 50C..........150A at 75C 

Inrush A.........................150...................500-2000 

Open against Vmax.......... 35V.................>>100V 

(...same as Kilovac) 

Hold current.....................1.0 A................700 mA 

(Kilovac is 100 mA, Gigavac has lower hold currents on request) 

G-force opening...............2G ??................>>10G 



Anyway the GX11 will be about $120, but the Type 70 ($37.00 from Newark) is not really useable in my opinion. You may want the accessory contacts and long leads...couldn't hurt. 



The Kilovac EV200aaana (aka Blue Sea 9012) is still great (similar to the Gigavac GX11). 



The type 70 is problematic even if very common and long in the tooth. It is deficient in four main areas: 



1) Poor coil suppression (this can be retrofitted to improve it) 

2) Inadequate operating temperature. My GUESS is that the early ones had fiber/bakelite interiors, now they are Nylon. Regardless 122F spec is way too low to use. 

3) Inadequate G force withstand. 2G ?? 

4) Open against Vmax. 35V. They could sustain an arc if the alternator runs away.

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

dballin

Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 11

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Tyco and all its problems

Gilles

You are absolutely right and my mistake.  Gigavac does make a more efficient model the GX11TA   24v  45mA hold down current. You just have to ask for it!



Thanks for catching my error.  



Dan Ballin

Legacy #286

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: Tyco and all its problems

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Anyway the GX11 will be about $120, but the Type 70 ($37.00 from Newark) 

is not really useable in my opinion.


	


   I presume we're discussing use of the Type 70 as an

   alternator b-lead disconnect device. For use as battery

   contactor (99.99% of all applications in 200,000 or

   so airplanes for 60 years) the down-sides

   are not so significant.



 	  Quote: 	
		    You may want the accessory contacts and long leads...couldn't hurt.



The Kilovac EV200aaana (aka Blue Sea 9012) is still great (similar to the 

Gigavac GX11).



The type 70 is problematic even if very common and long in the tooth. It 

is deficient in four main areas:



1) Poor coil suppression (this can be retrofitted to improve it)


	


   Not "poor" but "no" coil suppression as a factory installed

   feature. This is typical of the majority of contactors and relays

   on the market. It's presumptuous for a manufacturer to

   include coil suppression out-of-hand . . . this should

   be left up to the system integrator. Tests

   here have shown that the simple diode arc

   suppression offers no significant effects

   on relay/contactor service life.



   See:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1DelayNoDiode.gif



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1DelayWithDiode.gif



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1OpeningTimeNoDiode.gif



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1OpeningTimeWithDiode.gif

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Inadequate operating temperature. My GUESS is that the early ones had 

fiber/bakelite interiors, now they are Nylon. Regardless 122F spec is way 

too low to use.


	


   . . . under the cowl perhaps. Unless irradiated

   by exhaust stack IR, parts under the cowl spend

   very little time in a 122F environment . . . and

   the most striking scenarios involve hot-soak of

   airspace under the cowl after engine shutdown.

   Under this scenario, the b-lead contactor is

   de-energized which eliminates a large source

   of temperature rise energy, internal coil

   dissipation. These contactors have been used

   successfully on the firewall of thousands of

   aircraft.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

3) Inadequate G force withstand. 2G ??


	


   Where does this come from and of what

   significance? I found no manufacturer's

   data limiting acceleration. Since inflight

   g-loading is applied while the contactor

   is energized, g-loads are not an issue

   for as-installed performance. I'll have

   to dig through the archives but I believe

   tests showed that it takes 4+ G of linear

   acceleration to close a de-energized contactor.



 	  Quote: 	
		  4) Open against Vmax. 35V. They could sustain an arc if the alternator 

runs away.


	


   Don't know where "35" comes from, it depends

   on lots of variables not characterized by

   White Rogers in the data sheets. Yes, if

   the contactor is called upon to do a real

   OV shutdown, there is a risk with current

   designs that an arc will establish between

   spreading contacts and continue to destruction

   of the contactor as well. However, it poses

   no little if any risks to the rest of the system.

   But an investigative goal I have for this

   winter when the drive stand . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand/DSCN0961.JPG



   . . . is running will be to see if I can deliberately

   precipitate meltdown in an S701 contactor.



   Irrespective of this yet to be demonstrated condition,

   the AEC9004 . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf

   will keep dv/dt stresses on the low-cost contactor

   well within its design limits. I've had two readers

   comment on conducted noise emissions from EV200

   contactors . . . so all is not 'golden' with

   the $high$ contactors.



   Test plans for the repeatable experiment are in

   place. We'll be able to convert WAGs and hypothesis to

   demonstrable working practice in the not too distant

   future.



   Bob . . .

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