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Need Opinions!

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chuck(at)mcculloughassoci
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: Need Opinions!

Hello Kitfoxers!  

My name is Chuck and I’m considering a Kitfox.  I know that if I want opinions, that this is the place!  

   

I’m a GA pilot with over 1000 hours in low-wing aircraft (grumman & beach).  I really want to find an airplane that I can fly in and out of my farm.  The problem is, I don’t have a lot of room for a runway.  I also don’t have a hanger with a big door.  I do have a climate controlled building with a 12’ door.  So, that is why I’m looking at folding wing planes.  This is in N. Texas and the field elevation is 630’  

   

Here’s my criteria:  

Folding wings that are easy enough to do for every flight – looking through the archives, a lot of you think this is fine.  

STOL – the best runway I can arrange is going to only be about 700’.  However, I won’t have any obstacles on either end to clear except a 4’ fence.  The terrain is flat and sparsely populated.  

I’m 6’1” and 200lbs.  My son is 6’2” and 160lbs.  We would like to be able to routinely use the plane together.  

   

If it is a really hot day with no wind and we are at gross, I can trailer the plane to a longer strip, but for 80+% of the time, I want to stay home.  

I’m considering a IV or higher with 80hp or higher.  

   

Am I crazy, or will this work?  

   

Also, any KF owners in North of Dallas, TX area  that would like to give me a tour of their plane?  

   

Thanks,  

Chuck  

        [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

Chuck,



You could surely operate a Kitfox out of a 700 foot strip on  a regular basis with a 582  or a 912ul, 912s  or 914  for you and your son.  The key here is weight and that is why i only mentioned the Rotax engines.  Other engine might be an option as well but you have to keep your plane light. I would empty weights of 700 lbs or less be close to your limit.  I have not flown a Jab powered Kitfox but it might be a candidate as well. 



If you are looking at one , get the owner to fly you in to a short strip like that on grass and try it to see.



A Kitfox IV with a 912 on wheels should weight 650 average empty and with a 1200 gross  you would have plenty there. Just make sure you both sit in the plane and try it as 6'2" people have long legs and it might be a bit cramped.

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: Need Opinions!

At 10:12 AM 11/9/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  My name is Chuck and I’m considering a 

Kitfox.  I know that if I want opinions, that this is the place!


	


Unfortunately you're right.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I do have a climate controlled building with a 

12’ door.  So, that is why I’m looking at folding wing planes.


	


In the long run you'll find it easier to just 

build another building, or expand the door on the 

existing building. But for now, you're right that 

the Kitfox is a very good alternative for wing 

folding. I do it every time I fly and as you've 

seen from the archives, it adds less than 20 

minutes to my flight, total. HOWEVER, my plane 

was built specifically for this purpose. Most 

Kitfoxes aren't (my casual statistical 

observation,) and will require modification to achieve my levels of expediency.



 	  Quote: 	
		  STOL – the best runway I can arrange is going to 

only be about 700’.  However, I won’t have any 

obstacles on either end to clear except a 4’ 

fence.  The terrain is flat and sparsely populated.


	


I know a IV will take off high and hot at gross 

in well under 700'. Landing is entirely another 

matter. Kitfox IV's are floaters, particularly at 

or near stall speed and require skill and 

concentration to land short. I know people who 

NEVER land more than 250', even heavy, high, and 

hot, and can get in under 100' if they want to. 

However after a year and a half of flying I am 

unable to reliably replicate their performance. 

I'm getting there, though. (To be fair I wouldn't 

blanch at getting in at 700', but it sure wouldn't be casual.)



 	  Quote: 	
		  I’m 6’1” and 200lbs.  My son is 6’2” and 

160lbs.  We would like to be able to routinely use the plane together.


	


You'll have to use thin seats in a IV and you'll 

be somewhat cramped. I'm 6' and change and use 

thick seats and am cramped, but my butt's 

comfortable enough for a 4 1/2 leg in a 10 hour 

flying day so I can't complain. Though I wouldn't 

trade the IV's flight characteristics for a 5, (I 

haven't flown John's new "hybrid" that supposedly 

returned some of the IV's handling to the larger 

aircraft,) you might want to get the larger plane for comfort.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

I fly my fox a bunch.  I myself am 170 pounds and my wife is about 150. Now I fly everyday and the thought of folding the wings is NOT on my want list, but don't let that deter you.  If I take off I can be off the ground very quickly, usually within 200ft.  If I have my wife in the plane it doubles.  I generally have no more than 10gallons of fuel in the plane, it carries 26.  Expect the fox to be a slug with 400 pounds of people on board, but still better than any cessna.  Is the fence yours? If so I would think of cutting it out at the runway approach ends.  That way you can get right down there and drag it in to land.   I don't see any trouble with take off.  Make sure you have an IVO prop, those buggers are great for take off and cruise speed, make it inflight adjust as well.

Gary

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

Chuck

We seem to have the same requirements!  I've thought long and hard over what's best for me and I recently bought an unbuilt IV, 1200 with the 912UL.  I currently live in Toronto but our (early) retirement home is under construction on the family farm in Nova Scotia.  House and Kitfox are on a 2 yr. build plan.  I wanted an airplane that can roll into a basement garage for storage and operate off a 600' grass strip next to the house.   My other options include mowing a 1000' strip further away from the house and partly on a neighbors hay field and/or towing 3 km to the local airport (Trenton) where there's asphalt as far as the eye can see.   My 14 yr old son plans to get his pilots license, maybe even do his training in the KF.   I'm 5/11, 170 so the fit isn't an issue.

_________________
Gary Del Bel Belluz
Toronto, IV / 912UL
Just getting started

RockyRim

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Austin, Texas

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

Hi Chuck,



 What a bag of worms you opened.  I'm 6'3 205 flying out of 700'

at 1400' msl.  My wife is 5'8.  I have a 40' high wire on the west

side about a 100' from the threshold which makes landings just 

about need a tail hook and cable, but I'm in the process of going 

underground with that.  I've got about 1400 hrs. low wing, so

we are a pretty good match. 



Denise and Rocky Whitman

S7 912S

Austin, Tx.

57_kid

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 50

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Need Opinions!

Chuck

I'm flying a model 5 with a Continental O-200 , I routinely go in and out of

my brothers 900 ft strip with wires on one end and a lake on the other and I

come in at 240  at 6'2",,,,, . I do believe that you will find a multitude

of stories and types of Kitfoxes with different setups its all what you are

used to or should I say what you will get used to ..The best thing to do is

try and get a ride in one that is similar to what you will be getting ,.. 

Good luck in your search you wont be disappointed in a Kitfox.

Steve Eccles

Kitfox 5

Eagle Lake , Minnesota



--

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

Do you have any places to land near your runway that you can use in an emergency? 700 ft doesn't leave much room to get back down if the motor burps on takeoff. I'm in a similar boat; About 1400 ft but with 30ft trees on both ends. Knowing that I can land at that cow pasture off the end of the runway adds alot to my comfort factor.

 	  Quote: 	
		   the best runway I can arrange is going to only be about 700â€™. However, I wonâ€™t have any obstacles on either end to clear except a 4â€™ fence. The terrain is flat and sparsely populated.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

 	  Quote: 	
		  Do you have any places to land near your runway that you can use in an emergency? 700 ft doesn't leave much room to get back down if the motor burps on takeoff. I'm in a similar boat; About 1400 ft but with 30ft trees on both ends. Knowing that I can land at that cow pasture off the end of the runway adds alot to my comfort factor. 	




I can clear 50 foot obstacle in 500 feet of runway  solo.  Dual I would need about 200 to 300 to break ground alone plus another 300 to 400 to clear a 50 foot obstacle and that is leaving no room for error. 



Landing over 50' obstacle I can manage 1000' at best but no margin for error. 



all these figures are based from 1000 ASL on standard day, stir in some density altitude and you will add more space required.



Always leave your self an out !!

Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Need Opinions!

The main problem with that 700ft is landing, not taking off.  With 20

deg. of flap clearing the fence is no problem.  The Kitfox will land

that short but the wind and approach speed has to be nailed to do it.

It's very easy to put your wheels down a little too fast and not be able

to stop floating/bouncing and eat up a short strip.  Then that 4 foot

fence is waiting for you on the other end if you don't go-around quick

enough.



My experience is that I can bring it in at 50 mph with flaps and power;

yank the power off and drop it down hard and brake to a stop in under

300ft.  I can't do it repeatedly.  It's easy to float.  I don't think I

could currently land into a 700ft with 100% confidence and certainly not

with a passenger.



Problem is our strip is 2400 usable with an uphill portion to it.  It

works well as I can just slip down to the bottom of it and 3-point land

and then gravity does the rest.  The trees nicely block cross winds as

well.  It does make me lazy so I have to practice at other strips to

keep current.  Others may have better technique.



FWIW,



Mark Napier

N246DR KFIII 582



____________________________________

Time: 03:47:30 PM PST US

Subject: Re: Need Opinions!

From: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>

Do you have any places to land near your runway that you can use in an

emergency?

700 ft doesn't leave much room to get back down if the motor burps on

takeoff.

I'm in a similar boat; About 1400 ft but with 30ft trees on both ends.

Knowing

that I can land at that cow pasture off the end of the runway adds alot

to

my comfort factor.

 	  Quote: 	
		    the best runway I can arrange is going to only be about 700. However,

I wont
	


have any obstacles on either end to clear except a 4 fence. The terrain

is flat

and sparsely populated. 

--------

Luis Rodriguez

Model IV 1200

Rotax 912UL

Flying Weekly

Laurens, SC (34A)

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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145220#145220



 



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wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

I agree as long as the motor is running. If you're motor quits 50ft off the ground when you're 500ft down a 700ft runway then you're going to need some options. Getting back down to the runway you just left won't be one of them. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  The main problem with that 700ft is landing, not taking off

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Need Opinions!

Just to let you know.  I just did the figuring and found that I can do a stop and go right at 700ft.  That is with calm winds, half tanks, solo.  My field elevation is right at 2000ft.  If I had a 700ft runway, I would be a little worried.



Now another food for thought. I have over 1000hrs in my fox, over 6000 landings.  I'm just starting to feel comfortable with landing in rough landing areas, meaning short, lots of trees, no outs.  Maybe not.  I still pucker.

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