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Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

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lacloudchaser(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Mark,

  

 Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt.

  

 Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org), as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. 

  

 I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot...

  

 ...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street.

  

 I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org) 

  

 Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels....

  

 Drew

  

 [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Drew,  

You still riding that hard tail crotch rocket!? This has nothing to do with flying….well it could but usually without wings!   

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Drew

 Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:19 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution  

  

  

       

Mark,  

    

   

    

Just to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt.  

    

   

    

Again, my advice is to communicate this issue through admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org), as I've seen you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express the human tendancy to enjoy conflict.   

    

   

    

I just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the pavement, and in the desert, its hot...  

    

   

    

...And you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street.  

    

   

    

I'm sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else feels strongly about it, they should also write admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org)   

    

   

    

Now about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide levels....  

    

   

    

Drew  

    

   

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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

It's also been far, far to long without a post on MMO.....

  

  

 In a message dated 11/8/2007 8:55:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,  viperdoc(at)mindspring.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

Now about those helmets,    smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide    levels....

      

 

      

Drew

      

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
	


 

  



See what's new [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of

interest and value.  Some of which your own members did not quite

believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone.  I took

your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal

letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an

acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the

question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue.  



The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human

nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms.  As long as it does not get

too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of  all

involved.  As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an

organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be

WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the

constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent

events that they have attended.  Remember the near mid-air discussion?

Another good example.   



The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to

requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into

interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of

certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft.

Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot

have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned

something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart,

I sincerely believe that to be a  true statement.  



I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of

certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through

official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might

be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the

best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly

formation (or want to) specifically.  Further, if you will look closely,

my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. 



Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or

policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes,

motorcycles or lawnmowers.  More power to you. Like the old saying goes:

"I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your

right to say it".  



What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be

questioning my point of view,  but rather whether it is "appropriate" to

express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official

channels".    



Of course I could be wrong.  



Mark Bitterlich



 ---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Mark,

  

 Are you dies paying member?

  

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  In a message dated 11/10/2007 2:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  yakplt(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        Yes    Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of

interest and    value.  Some of which your own members did not quite

believe was    accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone.  I took

your advice    (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal

letter to RPA as    per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an

acknowledgement of    its receipt let alone an answer to the

question/request. No big deal...    Patience is a virtue.  



The YAK list is a valuable tool and I    agree, it is sometimes human

nature to enjoy debate in all of its    forms.  As long as it does not get

too personal, I consider such    debate to be in the best interests of all

involved.  As you know, this    is the YAK LIST and discussing an

organization that flies and supports    Russian aircraft seems to me to be

WELL within the bounds of "normalcy",    especially when you include the

constant remarks made on this list by RPA    members discussing RPA recent

events that they have attended.     Remember the near mid-air discussion?

Another good example.      



The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited    to

requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed    into

interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth    of

certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around    aircraft.

Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored,    a lot

have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has    learned

something that they did not know originally in the process. In my    heart,

I sincerely believe that to be a true statement.  



I can    understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of

certain RPA    rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through

official RPA    communication channels, but to be honest while that might

be in the best    interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the

best interests of    General Aviation in total, and those that fly

formation (or want to)    specifically.  Further, if you will look closely,

my postings have all    been REPLIES, not originations. 



Drew, you have the right to form your    own opinions about any rule or

policy that you want to, regardless of    whether it applies to airplanes,

motorcycles or lawnmowers.  More    power to you. Like the old saying goes:

"I may not agree with that you say,    but I will support to the death your

right to say it".  



What    strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be

questioning    my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to

express my    views here in the first place rather/versus more    "official

channels".    



Of course I could be    wrong.  



Mark Bitterlich



   -----    Original Message ----

From: Drew <lacloudchaser(at)yahoo.com>

To:    yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 5:18:45    PM

Subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict  resolution



      Mark,

    

   Just    to clarify, I believe I provided you the policy vie email that was    retained from the YPA in it's modified form that is posted online at the    website - the RPA vice president is David McGirt.

    

   Again,    my advice is to communicate this issue through admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org), as I've seen    you have done, and so should others with opinions that they feel need to be    heard on this issue!! The yak list, although a valuable tool, tends to express    the human tendancy to enjoy conflict. 

    

   I    just got back from Kieth Codes california superbike school, we all had to    wear his type of leathers, even after signing multiple hold harmless letters    that he had no responsibility for our personal well being if we highsided in a    turn, but the clothing had no wiggle room, no biker leathers, no breathable    fabrics except dead cow zippered or one piece, armored, including racing boots    and what not...he wasn't paying my medical bills for face slapping the    pavement, and in the desert, its hot...

    

   ...And    you can imagine, I didn't question it - I was just thankful that so many    talented folks put together such an awsome program, and I had an opportunity    to learn from the best around, btw, I recommend it highly to any rider of    sport, touring or cruiser...many lessons apply track to street.

    

   I'm    sure this will get discussed by those at admin - again, if anyone else    feels strongly about it, they should also write admin(at)flyredstar.org (admin(at)flyredstar.org) 

    

   Now    about those helmets, smoke systems, valve clearances, monoxide  levels....

    

   Drew

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  





://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Yes Drew, you provided me with a lot of material that I found of

interest and value.  Some of which your own members did not quite

believe was accurate, so it was a wake-up call for everyone.  I took

your advice (actually against my better judgment) and wrote a formal

letter to RPA as per your recommendation. I'm still waiting for even an

acknowledgement of its receipt let alone an answer to the

question/request. No big deal... Patience is a virtue.  



The YAK list is a valuable tool and I agree, it is sometimes human

nature to enjoy debate in all of its forms.  As long as it does not get

too personal, I consider such debate to be in the best interests of all

involved.  As you know, this is the YAK LIST and discussing an

organization that flies and supports Russian aircraft seems to me to be

WELL within the bounds of "normalcy", especially when you include the

constant remarks made on this list by RPA members discussing RPA recent

events that they have attended.  Remember the near mid-air discussion?

Another good example.   



The "Flight Suit" issue over the years has not only been limited to

requests for the RPA to change their rules, but has also morphed into

interesting, and sometimes even heated debates on the actual worth of

certain types of safety equipment that are used in and around aircraft.

Over the history of this issue, a lot of people have been bored, a lot

have become angry, but all of us... Every one of us, has learned

something that they did not know originally in the process. In my heart,

I sincerely believe that to be a true statement.  



I can understand that you might prefer all discussion and debate of

certain RPA rules/regs/policies be conducted in private and through

official RPA communication channels, but to be honest while that might

be in the best interests of the RPA, I do not consider it to be in the

best interests of General Aviation in total, and those that fly

formation (or want to) specifically.  Further, if you will look closely,

my postings have all been REPLIES, not originations. 



Drew, you have the right to form your own opinions about any rule or

policy that you want to, regardless of whether it applies to airplanes,

motorcycles or lawnmowers.  More power to you. Like the old saying goes:

"I may not agree with that you say, but I will support to the death your

right to say it".  



What strikes me as interesting is that now you seem to no longer be

questioning my point of view, but rather whether it is "appropriate" to

express my views here in the first place rather/versus more "official

channels".    



Of course I could be wrong.  



Mark Bitterlich

--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

On Nov 10, 2007, at 5:56 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Corrections :



 Are you a dues paying member?  (Didn't have my glasses on)


	


Does that matter?



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Jim, have you ever piloted a tactical military aircraft in formation while on active duty for any United States military branch?  

  

  

 Mark Bitterlich 

  

  

 



 ---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

In a message dated 11/11/2007 12:38:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  brian-1927(at)lloyd.com writes:

  

 Well I guess if you think like a democrat and want everyone to vote  even if he is a convicted criminal or illegal alien. I always though you needed  to be part of an organization in order to vote in its elections and partition  motions.  I mean does the Supreme Court allow anybody and every body to  vote on its decisions. Does Congress?  Even our little homeowners  association would not pay attention nor conceder a nonmember's partition as  a legitimate motion.  By what right does a non member expect  that?  

  

 All I asked was Mark a dues paying member.  

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd    <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>

On Nov 10, 2007, at 5:56 PM,    cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Corrections :



 Are you a    dues paying member?  (Didn't have my glasses on)


	


Does that    matter?



--

Brian Lloyd                            3191 Western Drive

brian    HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA    95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.270.912.0788  (fax)

	




  [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

On Nov 11, 2007, at 2:59 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 In a message dated 11/11/2007 12:38:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

 brian-1927(at)lloyd.com writes:



 Well I guess if you think like a democrat and want everyone to vote  

 even if he is a convicted criminal or illegal alien. I always  

 though you needed to be part of an organization in order to vote in  

 its elections and partition motions.  I mean does the Supreme Court  

 allow anybody and every body to vote on its decisions. Does  

 Congress?  Even our little homeowners association would not pay  

 attention nor conceder a nonmember's partition as a legitimate  

 motion.  By what right does a non member expect that?



 All I asked was Mark a dues paying member.


	


And I was looking at it from a different angle. I was looking at it  

from the point of view of determining whether what he was saying had  

merit. If it does or does not, it does so whether or not he is a  

voting member.



But I agree with you; one should ante up if one wants to play in the  

game.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

lacloudchaser(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Mark et all,

  

 Clearly, my recommendation to write to admin(at) flyredstar is NOT to crunch debate, but to insure that debate (those well written lengthy positions) reaches those elected by the members (the board of directors) or elected by those board members (the president and national officers) who need look in to your positions by reading your arguments - 

  

 The reason for my emphasizing this is many of those folks do not read this list. During five years with RPA I could often not hit this yak list dailey, but tried to answer every gripe or comment that made it to my inbox via the admin email  ("I can't log in, where's my patch, how do I renew my FAST card, where do I find an instructor, why is there no clinics in my region..."). Patience, I know that the new president is putting people in place to expend great effort right now on some new website infrastructure for members and this community based on their multi-year feedback, as well as other projects,

  

 [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Drew, I wrote the RPA.    So it all is said and done.

  

 Lastly, if I was a board member of any organization that was being talked about in public, I would make it my business to go to that source and read about it myself.  This subject has come up before and has been debated until it is dead in the water.  The facts are known... all of them... good and bad.   What makes it keep coming back up is that new people arrive and are led to believe certain things that are not exactly accurate.  They repeat these things in good faith, and those that know better are very quick to point out the error of their ways.    That then draws out of the woodwork those that also could care less about Flightsuits themselves, but think that PEOPLE SHOULD DO AS THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD.  Of course you know what happens next there as well.  

  

 Bottom line is that I suspect that the RPA Board members are well aware of the issues involved.  If not, then they should be so after they read the letter you encouraged that I write, and you brief them on the subject.  

  

 Thanks, 

  

 Mark

 



 

 ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: Flight suits, leathers and conflict resolution

Point taken! 



Mark

 



--

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