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Yak 52 Bad Habits?
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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Mark Jefferies YAK UK Ltd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 It seams we have come to the conclusion the YAK 52 is a sleeping bear

 but poke it with a sharp stick and it gets angry :>))))


	


More like a sleeping dog. Treat him nicely and he will save your life.

Poke him with a stick and he will bite you.



 	  Quote: 	
		   BTW, I have been told that race drivers NOMEX suits are up to 10 layers

 thick. Soooo hot after 30 mins ACM you would be sweating like you run 10

 miles in Florida in July.  


	


Now imagine the pilot's mental performance when he/she is suffering from

hyperthermia and dehydration as a result. Which is the greater risk:

hyperthermia/dehydration or flash-fire? I know I have suffered from the

former and have recognized my reduced capacity later. I cannot recollect

ever having suffered from flash-fire.



And a pilot on my wing who is suffering from hyperthermia and

dehydration *DOES* pose a greater threat to me. I consider this to be a

real potential safety issue.



I wonder how the mental impairment from hyperthermia and dehydration

compare to intake of alcohol. Is it like one drink? Two? Three? Would

you fly with someone on your wing who has had a couple of drinks? Heck,

just the distraction of attention due to thirst would be a factor.



You know, it is hard work to try to compare the effects of different risks.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

jgriffint28(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

I agree with you, Brian, about the relative risks of dehydration vs.flash 

fire. The biggest problem with dehydration is that the person suffering from 

this rarely recognizes their impairment until it is severe. Most of the 

people on cross country bicycle trips have to be pulled off the road by 

officials. They can be spotted by their erratic riding. Rarely do they 

recognize it.

If it is over 75 degrees, I don't wear Nomex. I guess I'll just have to go 

to RPA winter events.

Jim Griffin



---

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

it's a good thing you guys aren't firefighters  (note smiley face)



It's during these times that i turn to Industrial Hygiene News:



http://www.rimbach.com/scripts/Article/IHN/Number.idc?Number=67



 	  jgriffint28(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  I agree with you, Brian, about the relative 

---

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Scooter,

That picture in the article is exactly the gear I use it comes from Simpson

racing and is not too warm and is constructed just like a light knit.



Gus 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Or get the summer wt desert tan cammo ones.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   If it is over 75 degrees, I don't wear Nomex. I guess I'll just have to

go 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   to RPA winter events.

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Gus,

You are flying up there where it is actually cold and you get that white

stuff that gets all over your toys.

What's it like down here where it is generally a pretty cold day in hell

for us to see that white stuff messing up the roads and runways?

Hyperthermia may be a player here for us.

And we are off again on the damned flight suit issue..somebody

pleeeeeeaaaaaseee killllll thiss horrrrssssseeee! It keeps crawling out of

the smoking hole!

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Fraser, Gus <gus.fraser(at)gs.com>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/24/2006 9:43:47 AM

 Subject: RE: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?



 



 Scooter,

 That picture in the article is exactly the gear I use it comes from

Simpson
	


[quote] racing and is not too warm and is constructed just like a light knit.



 Gus 



 --

gus.fraser(at)gs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

I think in the press they call it drop the dead donkey. This whote stuff of

which you speak, we just call it paint stripper, go flying in it and you

will see what I mean )



Gus 



--

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Sorry, i'm going to take one more good whack at this horse then let it rest forever.  Here's an interesting bit:



"Post-crash Fire

Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly 0%. "



- OPERATIONAL ARMY AVIATION MEDICINE - Chapter 26



Isn't google a wonderful thing.

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Scooter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   "Post-crash Fire

 Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly 0%. "

 

 - OPERATIONAL ARMY AVIATION MEDICINE - Chapter 26

 

 Isn't google a wonderful thing.


	


If you feel you should wear a Nomex suit then you should. Your example

is from military rotary-wing operations which are different from

civilian fixed-wing operations. We tend to operate with a much greater

margin for safety as we do not have must-fly missions.



Personally I feel that there is more threat to my flying from heat and

dehydration than from fire. I will dress accordingly. You should do what

makes you feel most safe and comfortable.



Brian Lloyd

brian-yak(at)lloyd.com

cdustercc

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 10
Location: Hertford, NC

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

I find it suprising that when you say "I wish you wouldn't require me to wear a flight suit" some people hear "It isn't a good idea to wear a flight suit".  There is a huge difference in those two statements.  The inability to distinguish the difference is why libertarian philosophy has such a hard road to travel.  If you feel safer, by all means don your nomex.  Heck, don't stop there, get a helmet, parachute, life jacket, and shark repellant.  If, on the other hand, you intend to tell other people what to wear in their cockpit, be prepared to hear some bitching.  Many freedoms have been eroded in the name of safety and "good ideas".  I am sure that there are lots of people who would feel safer if pilots would quit flying those dangerous, military, aerobatic, experimental aircraft over their heads.  Heck those things are from china and russia, they aren't even up to FAA standards!



Craig Craft

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Scooter,

I'm not Army but am AF. What you say is correct. The clothing does save

lives. I said once before or more, it for flash fire protection only. It is

not intended to keep you from being a crispy critter basking in the

fireball.

Doc

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Scooter <yakk52(at)verizon.net>

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/24/2006 1:36:32 PM

 Subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?



 



 Sorry, i'm going to take one more good whack at this horse then let it

rest forever.  Here's an interesting bit:
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 "Post-crash Fire

 Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and

mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing
	


mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of

crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the

thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly

0%. "

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 - OPERATIONAL ARMY AVIATION MEDICINE - Chapter 26



 Isn't google a wonderful thing.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14743#14743

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

cdustercc wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I find it suprising that when you say "I wish you wouldn't require me

  to wear a flight suit" some people hear "It isn't a good idea to

 wear a flight suit".  There is a huge difference in those two

 statements. The inability to distinguish the difference is why

 libertarian philosophy has such a hard road to travel.


	


Amen brother. I can't imagine anyone stating the issue more clearly.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Valkyre1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Excellent article Scooter. That should about wrap  up the issue scientifically. Now about all that's left are our "Iwannas and  the Idonwannas". Thank You. - Val

ReadeG(at)Cairnwood.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I find it suprising that when you say "I wish you wouldn't 

 require me to wear a flight suit" some people hear "It isn't 

 a good idea to wear a flight suit".  There is a huge 

 difference in those two statements.  The inability to 

 distinguish the difference is why libertarian philosophy has 

 such a hard road to travel. 


	


BINGO!! Very well put.  



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you feel safer, by all means 

 don your nomex.  Heck, don't stop there, get a helmet, 

 parachute, life jacket, and shark repellant.  If, on the 

 other hand, you intend to tell other people what to wear in 

 their cockpit, be prepared to hear some bitching.  Many 

 freedoms have been eroded in the name of safety and "good 

 ideas".  I am sure that there are lots of people who would 

 feel safer if pilots would quit flying those dangerous, 

 military, aerobatic, experimental aircraft over their heads.  

 Heck those things are from china and russia, they aren't even 

 up to FAA standards!


	


Yep - as soon as you enter Class B the wings start to flap, the engine

sputters and the tail will fall off.



Thank you Craig Craft for the clarity - which Brian Lloyd has attempted to

convey many times.   



Reade

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

It was a good whack Scooter, but the horse just turned around and kicked you square in the chest.     

ALL OF YOU "FLIGHT SUIT OR DIE" folks, GO READ THE ARTICLE IN SPORT AEROBATICS.    

It does a very good job of NOT comparing apples to oranges.  In other words, it discusses people who fly Aerobatic aircraft (like us), who have fuel between their legs (like some of us) and how Nomex soaks up that fuel and burns very merrily turning you into toast.  It also discusses how Nomex, worn by military aviators with ejection seats, and who are not directly exposed to burning fluids for too long, do very well with them.    

Don't argue with me.  Argue with the man who wrote the article and conducted a lot of very good testing in order to do so.    

His bottom line conclusion was that Fire Retardant Flight Suits were well worth having, but that a simple Nomex flight suit offered little if any improvement over a set of jeans and a tea shirt.  His words, not mine.    

Interestingly enough.... my point all along was NOT that Flight Suits were worthless and should never be worn, but rather that no organization should specify that flight suits be worn in order to receive any kind of flight training.    

Others, (in their exuberance) have turned what I said around in any manner of ways, and then have attacked what I never said to begin with.  This is not an uncommon tactic really.  The formula works like this:  "Take 10% truth, add in 90% stupid nonsense, and then point out the obvious.  Later credit the truth AND the 90% nonsense to the person you disagree with".    

By the time "the other guy" finishes trying to defend himself against something he never said... he looks pretty stupid and everybody gets tired of talking about it, and wants to hang the original poster from the nearest tree.    

The above tactic is used regularly by a few savvy folk on this list.  I call them "savvy" because they are... it works on EVERYBODY 99.99999% of the time.    

Well, this time... and by mere coincidence only .... the tables have been turned.     

Go read the article.  Become a smarter, and more informed pilot on just how you CAN help to protect yourself from cockpit fires and possible burns.  Or... continue to rant about how good Nomex is, not because you really know any better, but because the military wears them, and therefore, they MUST BE GOOD.    

As for RPA still requiring a person to wear a nomex flight suit in order to receive FAST training, this article removes any last shred of rationale for such a rule.  Require them for your events and membership if you like (your organization after all), but NEVER for training Mr. New Guy Wanna Be.    

As it turns out... Sport Aerobatics gets in the last word.     

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK 

      

 

 

  

--

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Wow, you guys are a scrappy bunch.  I imagine RPA events turn into big wrestling matches!  Could be fun.



 	  BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi wrote: 	
		  It was a good whack Scooter, but the horse just turned around and kicked you square in the chest.ï¿½    

ALL OF YOU "FLIGHT SUIT OR DIE" folks, GO READ THE ARTICLE IN SPORT AEROBATICS.    

  

--

ben(at)designselect.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

The whole flight suit discussion seems a bit more like justification of an emotional need to dress like the military guys as opposed to a logical rational.  If that’s the case, so be it.  It doesn’t blow my skirt up an inch either way.  Still, have you ever seen those T-28 guys strap in?  Now that’s a maladjusted ego.  I hope we Yak and CJ guys don’t become another group like that!  

   

Incidentally, I had occasion to fly with my friend Brian Sanders on Saturday in the only flying T-MK-20 Sea Fury with a Bristol Centaurus.  This was my second flight in the airplane.  This was unique in that we performed his airbatic routine from the deck, including the vertical roll.  Imagine flying over the fence at 25’ and 370 knots, pulling seven to the vertical for a leisurely full roll.  Over the top with a half loop well above 5000’, he established the vertical down line for the second roll.    

   

This was an awesome experience.  And, for the record, I wore my flight suit (for the first time since test flying my -52 four years ago), complete with my Boy Scout merit badge as my all important hero-pilot insignia.  And folks, it would not have made any difference if I wore it or not.  I was only the second hippest guy on the ramp, no matter what.  

   

Cheers,  

   

Ben  

         

  

From:  owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich GS11 Mark G

 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:58 PM

 To: 'yak-list(at)matronics.com'

 Subject: RE: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?  

  

   

It was a good whack Scooter, but the horse just turned around and kicked you square in the chest.    

ALL OF YOU "FLIGHT SUIT OR DIE" folks, GO READ THE ARTICLE IN SPORT AEROBATICS.   

It does a very good job of NOT comparing apples to oranges.  In other words, it discusses people who fly Aerobatic aircraft (like us), who have fuel between their legs (like some of us) and how Nomex soaks up that fuel and burns very merrily turning you into toast.  It also discusses how Nomex, worn by military aviators with ejection seats, and who are not directly exposed to burning fluids for too long, do very well with them.    

Don't argue with me.  Argue with the man who wrote the article and conducted a lot of very good testing in order to do so.    

His bottom line conclusion was that Fire Retardant Flight Suits were well worth having, but that a simple Nomex flight suit offered little if any improvement over a set of jeans and a tea shirt.  His words, not mine.    

Interestingly enough.... my point all along was NOT that Flight Suits were worthless and should never be worn, but rather that no organization should specify that flight suits be worn in order to receive any kind of flight training.    

Others, (in their exuberance) have turned what I said around in any manner of ways, and then have attacked what I never said to begin with.  This is not an uncommon tactic really.  The formula works like this:  "Take 10% truth, add in 90% stupid nonsense, and then point out the obvious.  Later credit the truth AND the 90% nonsense to the person you disagree with".    

By the time "the other guy" finishes trying to defend himself against something he never said... he looks pretty stupid and everybody gets tired of talking about it, and wants to hang the original poster from the nearest tree.    

The above tactic is used regularly by a few savvy folk on this list.  I call them "savvy" because they are... it works on EVERYBODY 99.99999% of the time.    

Well, this time... and by mere coincidence only .... the tables have been turned.    

Go read the article.  Become a smarter, and more informed pilot on just how you CAN help to protect yourself from cockpit fires and possible burns.  Or... continue to rant about how good Nomex is, not because you really know any better, but because the military wears them, and therefore, they MUST BE GOOD.    

As for RPA still requiring a person to wear a nomex flight suit in order to receive FAST training, this article removes any last shred of rationale for such a rule.  Require them for your events and membership if you like (your organization after all), but NEVER for training Mr. New Guy Wanna Be.    

As it turns out... Sport Aerobatics gets in the last word.    

Mark Bitterlich 

 N50YK 

       



 

   

-----Original Message----- 

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)]On Behalf Of Scooter 

 Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 2:31 PM 

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Subject: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?   

   

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Scooter" <yakk52(at)verizon.net>   

Sorry, i'm going to take one more good whack at this horse then let it rest forever.  Here's an interesting bit:   

"Post-crash Fire 

 Prior to the early 1970's, there was a 40% thermal morbidity and mortality due to post-crash fire in otherwise survivable rotary-wing mishaps. Intensive research and development followed by installation of crashworthy fuel systems and issue of Nomex clothing has reduced the thermal injury rate in survivable aviation rotary-wing mishaps to nearly 0%. "  

- OPERATIONAL ARMY AVIATION MEDICINE - Chapter 26   

Isn't google a wonderful thing.   



 

   

Read this topic online here:   

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14743#14743   



 

 

 

 

 

 

   



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BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

So you're saying that it's the airplane coupled with the pilot's  abilities that determines how HIP you are?  

  

 A novel thought.  

  

 The Sea Fury sounds like a real hoot... you're a lucky son of a  gun!   

  

 In the end though, power is all a matter of perspective.  "Back in  day", I was in the back seat of a Marine RF-4B when we did a buzz job at Cubi  Point.  50 feet over the numbers,  over 500 knots downt the runway,  light the burners and pull vertical doing rolls all the way to 25,000  feet.   Of course, in all fairness.... we also did not have a "down  line"      

  

 The YAK-50 will do a half-cuban on take-off followed by a full stop on  the same runway...albeit... a 5000 foot runway.     

  

 You're right though... the Sea Fury rules.   

  

 Take care, 

  

 MGB

 [quote]   --

ben(at)designselect.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Indeed, it ain’t what we wear; it’s what we do that counts.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bitterlich GS11 Mark G

 Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:26 PM

 To: 'yak-list(at)matronics.com'

 Subject: RE: Re: Yak 52 Bad Habits?  

  

     

[b]So you're saying that it's the airplane coupled with the pilot's abilities that determines how HIP you are?[/b]    

    

   

    

[b]A novel thought.  [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]The Sea Fury sounds like a real hoot... you're a lucky son of a gun!   [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]In the end though, power is all a matter of perspective.  "Back in day", I was in the back seat of a Marine RF-4B when we did a buzz job at Cubi Point.  50 feet over the numbers,  over 500 knots downt the runway, light the burners and pull vertical doing rolls all the way to 25,000 feet.   Of course, in all fairness.... we also did not have a "down line"      [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]The YAK-50 will do a half-cuban on take-off followed by a full stop on the same runway...albeit... a 5000 foot runway.    [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]You're right though... the Sea Fury rules.  [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]Take care, [/b]  

    

   

    

[b]MGB[/b]  

  [quote]  

--

jgriffint28(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: Yak 52 Bad Habits?

Hey Ben, I've got a correction for you. I flew a  T-28 in the Osh Kosh airshow for 12 years and wore a flight suit about half the  time. It depends on the temp. That engine generates an enormous amount of heat.  Ralph Glasser, the 28 flight lead, flys the show in a floral cotton scrub suit  shirt. He does wear gloves. The RPA is a lot more ANAL about their dress than  any other warbird group. 

 Jim Griffin

 CJ6-A, T-6D, former 28 driver

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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