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admin(at)arachnidrobotics
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 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I normally wouldn’t reply to an email like this on-list, and this will be my one and only on-list. Jeff, I sent both of those emails TO YOU Thursday (yesterday), and you WILL have your tanks in your hanger by next week. I did fall behind in things, as I believe everyone involved knows. However, the last bit of things are going out to those involved. They went out, or are going out, late, and that’s my fault. Anyone involved has been very gracious and patient and I appreciate that to the extreme. It does speak to the kind of people we have in the aviation community, as you mentioned.
I received the email below from you on Wednesday afternoon. Try as I might, it’s tough to get something back from the welder and across the country that soon. J I received a second email from you after that, which I will not insult the list with. Suffice it to say, you mention that WW (of Corvair engine fame) was on the receiving end of your wrath as well. We all get behind, even very behind at times, as was the case with both myself and WW. Things are being made right though, and the loose ends are being shipped out (including your tanks).
Finally, I suppose I should apologize to the list. I don’t think this is the place for rants, although many of us do on occasion. If anyone has any questions, please don’t hesitate to email me off-list.
Working hard to finish up,
--
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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We have heard your excuses time and time again. In your email to me you stated you would have a tracking # Friday you didn't you also say you would call and once again you didn't. It is you sir that needs to do what you say. You have told us time and time again you were shipping the tanks and they never showed. You also said you felt so bad about it that you were not only going to send the tanks but you were also going to return our money. I am not asking for anything more than is expected. It seems many people want to sell things but never deliver or have the simple consideration of contacting builders that have sent in their money to let them know the status of their order. They seem to think that their time is somehow more valuable than theirs. I can tell you as a builder of 3 601's I have positioned myself to not have to relay on any outside sources other than companies like ACS etc. If ACS ran a business like some others that sell parts and take months to deliver would they still be in business?? Your email states you don't think this is the place for rants... I guess you don't, if we keep it from everyone else then you can keep on conducting business in the same manner. I honestly believe people are afraid to speak up in fear of never getting their parts they paid for but I am not and I could care less if I ever get the tanks. But I want people to know the way you are. As I told WW if you can supply my parts when I need them and you ship them on the date you promise then I won't have a minutes problem and we worked out our differences. So you say they will be in the mail next week than I will expect a tracking # for either the tanks or a money order Monday. You said you picked them up Friday than Monday shouldn't be a problem.
In a message dated 11/17/2007 2:09:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com writes:
| Quote: |
I normally wouldn't reply to an email like this on-list, and this will be my one and only on-list. Jeff, I sent both of those emails TO YOU Thursday (yesterday), and you WILL have your tanks in your hanger by next week. I did fall behind in things, as I believe everyone involved knows. However, the last bit of things are going out to those involved. They went out, or are going out, late, and that’s my fault. Anyone involved has been very gracious and patient and I appreciate that to the extreme. It does speak to the kind of people we have in the aviation community, as you mentioned.
I received the email below from you on Wednesday afternoon. Try as I might, it’s tough to get something back from the welder and across the country that soon. J I received a second email from you after that, which I will not insult the list with. Suffice it to say, you mention that WW (of Corvair engine fame) was on the receiving end of your wrath as well. We all get behind, even very behind at times, as was the case with both myself and WW. Things are being made right though, and the loose ends are being shipped out (including your tanks).
Finally, I suppose I should apologize to the list. I don’t think this is the place for rants, although many of us do on occasion. If anyone has any questions, please don’t hesitate to email me off-list.
Working hard to finish up,
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:54 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Scam artist
I would like to warn everyone about a man named TOM HENDERSON his email is admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com (admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com) he is selling snake oil and we all need to spread this to every list we are on. He claims to be advertising kits for the 601xl for 5,500.00 and then never delivers after he gets your money. I was asked by one person that wanted to build a 601 what I thought about this kit and price and I told him I had a gut feeling he was going to rip him off and sure enough he did. I am attaching his email he sent me regarding the 15 gal wing tanks he ordered and never received. He is now saying he will give 600.00 for each referral you send his way.... isn't that generous???? I am contacting the attorney general Monday morning and turn this ass hole in. I have found that the aviation community is comprised of mainly honest people and this guy really cuts deep into that. If anyone else has done business with this man please send me any info you can so I can take this guy out of business.
I was told that when he first started out he did deliver some parts but after he lost his job he quit delivering and kept the money.
I think a lot of people are afraid to speak out because they have a fear of never getting their parts but I have a news flash for those that have ordered parts (you never will) so send me a email off list so we can keep aviation honest.
Here are some emails I sent him and he sent to me.
FROM ME
Tom,
I think it has been long enough. I will expect either a check from you or the 15 gal. tanks, The builder (name with held) ordered these over 3 months ago. I also received another email you had sent out offering 600 for each referral. You need to make this right or I will be forced to take further action to insure you don't rip off any other builders. It is the 14th of Nov. I will expect the check or tanks by the 16th.
Good day
Jeff Garrett
297 Smith Ln.
Louisville, Ky. 40229
502-644-8123
REPLY
Sorry about that Jeff, I got involved in finishing up some other things and got behind. I'll get the tanks right out to you. I have several due back from welding Friday, which I will get right out to you. Thanks for the reminder.
I'll talk to you soon with tracking numbers.
No Call again
Next email
Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry to have caused a problem with your build schedule. I thought I had gotten the tanks headed your direction two months ago, and didn't give it any thought since I hadn't heard anything to the contrary. I let things get way to busy a month ago, but they're finally to a normal pace again.
I will definitely get your tanks out for you. I'm picking up from the welder tomorrow afternoon, and I'll give you a call shortly after that.
Talk to you tomorrow,
| Quote: |
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Hi List’s From Time to time people offer parts for the Zenith Kits. I have absolutely no problem with this if they are parts that are of their own design. However when people start making parts right from Chris’s drawings and sell them I don’t understand why anyone would support this! If you are in need of a Zenith part, does it not make sense to buy directly from a Distributor or the Factory? All the problems we have been forced to read will disappear and remember the pretty girl in this picture spends her whole day doing this work, it is not a one off for her, it is how she feeds her kids.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C82907.1AAA2FD0[/img]
We have also had to hear about people building parts and making assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does. However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
As a dealer, I have now seen things I never would have though possible in this industry, I have seen people make kits from scratch and try to sell them as a Zenith kit ( in fact one such kit used non-aviation solid rivets in the wings spars). We have all learned the Buyer Beware Motto, but it gets hard to do when following our dream and people have prayed off of this.
For this reason alone, the Zenith Dealers have discussed a way of helping the person out by trying to ensure that the parts or uncompleted kits are of value to them. We have also wanted a place to offer flying planes that are of good quality in workmanship. It is our goal to view all construction and parts before we list them on the www.zacdealer.com website. It is also our intention to list accessories for the Zenith kits that are developed by the dealers. This is an early announcement, but I am sure many of you are tired of hearing about people being cheated or deceived. If your after an assembly, a quick build kit or just some help, go to this website or go directly to an Official Zenith Dealer. They are good people with the appropriate knowledge and desire to help.
Please remember this website is just started and needs a lot of work from ALL the Distributors yet, but it is a start in helping some of you out.
www.zacdealer.com
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)
www.can-zacaviation.com
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Mark
Thank you for your post. I know that you have enough to worry about, but I just want to comment that the new website does not display properly with Firefox, my browser of choice. It displays just fine with IE, but, I would hope that someone could make whatever mods are necessary so that it would work with Firefox.
Terry
At 10:46 AM 11/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi List’s From Time to time people offer parts for the Zenith Kits. I have absolutely no problem with this if they are parts that are of their own design. However when people start making parts right from Chris’s drawings and sell them I don’t understand why anyone would support this! If you are in need of a Zenith part, does it not make sense to buy directly from a Distributor or the Factory? All the problems we have been forced to read will disappear and remember the pretty girl in this picture spends her whole day doing this work, it is not a one off for her, it is how she feeds her kids.
[img]cid:5.2.1.1.2.20071117093736.03e68b68(at)mail.rkymtn.net.1[/img]
We have also had to hear about people building parts and making assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does. However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
As a dealer, I have now seen things I never would have though possible in this industry, I have seen people make kits from scratch and try to sell them as a Zenith kit ( in fact one such kit used non-aviation solid rivets in the wings spars). We have all learned the Buyer Beware Motto, but it gets hard to do when following our dream and people have prayed off of this.
For this reason alone, the Zenith Dealers have discussed a way of helping the person out by trying to ensure that the parts or uncompleted kits are of value to them. We have also wanted a place to offer flying planes that are of good quality in workmanship. It is our goal to view all construction and parts before we list them on the www.zacdealer.com website. It is also our intention to list accessories for the Zenith kits that are developed by the dealers. This is an early announcement, but I am sure many of you are tired of hearing about people being cheated or deceived. If your after an assembly, a quick build kit or just some help, go to this website or go directly to an Official Zenith Dealer. They are good people with the appropriate knowledge and desire to help.
Please remember this website is just started and needs a lot of work from ALL the Distributors yet, but it is a start in helping some of you out.
www.zacdealer.com
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)
www.can-zacaviation.com
11/16/2007 10:58 PM
11/16/2007 10:58 PM
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Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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| Description: |
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| Filesize: |
35.27 KB |
| Viewed: |
547 Time(s) |
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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steerr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Hmmm. I'm also using Firefox and it seems to display OK for me. What
part didn't render properly?
Bill
do not archive
Terry Phillips wrote:
| Quote: | Mark
Thank you for your post. I know that you have enough to worry about,
but I just want to comment that the new website does not display
properly with Firefox, my browser of choice. It displays just fine
with IE, but, I would hope that someone could make whatever mods are
necessary so that it would work with Firefox.
Terry
At 10:46 AM 11/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
> Hi List’s From Time to time people offer parts for the Zenith Kits. I
> have absolutely no problem with this if they are parts that are of
> their own design. However when people start making parts right from
> Chris’s drawings and sell them I don’t understand why anyone would
> support this! If you are in need of a Zenith part, does it not make
> sense to buy directly from a Distributor or the Factory? All the
> problems we have been forced to read will disappear and remember the
> pretty girl in this picture spends her whole day doing this work, it
> is not a one off for her, it is how she feeds her kids.
>
> 74b33e.jpg
>
> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have
> no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their
> idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does. However, I
> do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints Chris
> has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does, then
> try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready to
> fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>
> As a dealer, I have now seen things I never would have though
> possible in this industry, I have seen people make kits from scratch
> and try to sell them as a Zenith kit ( in fact one such kit used
> non-aviation solid rivets in the wings spars). We have all learned
> the Buyer Beware Motto, but it gets hard to do when following our
> dream and people have prayed off of this.
>
> For this reason alone, the Zenith Dealers have discussed a way of
> helping the person out by trying to ensure that the parts or
> uncompleted kits are of value to them. We have also wanted a place to
> offer flying planes that are of good quality in workmanship. It is
> our goal to view all construction and parts before we list them on
> the www.zacdealer.com <http://www.zacdealer.com/> website. It is also
> our intention to list accessories for the Zenith kits that are
> developed by the dealers. This is an early announcement, but I am
> sure many of you are tired of hearing about people being cheated or
> deceived. If your after an assembly, a quick build kit or just some
> help, go to this website or go directly to an Official Zenith Dealer.
> They are good people with the appropriate knowledge and desire to help.
>
> Please remember this website is just started and needs a lot of work
> from ALL the Distributors yet, but it is a start in helping some of
> you out.
>
> www.zacdealer.com <http://www.zacdealer.com/>
>
> Mark Townsend
>
> Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
>
> president(at)can-zacaviation.com <mailto:president(at)can-zacaviation.com>
>
> www.can-zacaviation.com <http://www.can-zacaviation.com/>
>
> 11/16/2007 10:58 PM
>
> 11/16/2007 10:58 PM
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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hansriet
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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Yes the text of the website is garbled in Safari as well.
Hans
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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See attached images. 2nd one is when I click on the link in the email
message and it opens a new tab in Firefox. 1st one is when I use context
menu to view in an IE tab.
I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.9 on a Dell Inspiron Laptop, with Win XP Media
Center 2002 ed., SP 2.
Why it works for you and not for me is beyond me.
Terry
At 01:41 PM 11/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hmmm. I'm also using Firefox and it seems to display OK for me. What part
didn't render properly?
Bill
do not archive
|
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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steerr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I'm also running Firefox 2.0.0.9, on a Dell desktop running XP Pro SP2.
Except for the font used in the links above the text (e.g.,
"Zodiac.htm"), I'm seeing the same thing that IE displays. My font is
larger than the IE font.
Bill
Do not archive
Terry Phillips wrote:
| Quote: | See attached images. 2nd one is when I click on the link in the email
message and it opens a new tab in Firefox. 1st one is when I use
context menu to view in an IE tab.
I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.9 on a Dell Inspiron Laptop, with Win XP Media
Center 2002 ed., SP 2.
Why it works for you and not for me is beyond me.
Terry
At 01:41 PM 11/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
> Hmmm. I'm also using Firefox and it seems to display OK for me. What
> part didn't render properly?
>
> Bill
>
> do not archive
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Rudder done--finally; working on the stab
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Rule number 1 towards being a "honest" businessman.
Don't cash or run through a customers credit card payment till you have shipped the item. If you receive compensation and don't deliver that doesn't pass the smell test, in fact it borders on fraud. If you are really behind in filling orders then DON'T cash someones checks...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Thomas Henderson" <admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
I normally wouldn’t reply to an email like this on-list, and this will be my one and only on-list. Jeff, I sent both of those emails TO YOU Thursday (yesterday), and you WILL have your tanks in your hanger by next week. I did fall behind in things, as I believe everyone involved knows. However, the last bit of things are going out to those involved. They went out, or are going out, late, and that’s my fault. Anyone involved has been very gracious and patient and I appreciate that to the extreme. It does speak to the kind of people we have in the aviation community, as you mentioned.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I received the email below from you on Wednesday afternoon. Try as I might, it’s tough to get something back from the welder and across the country that soon. J I received a second email from you after that, which I will not insult the list with. Suffice it to say, you mention that WW (of Corvair engine fame) was on the receiving end of your wrath as well. We all get behind, even very behind at times, as was the case with both myself and WW. Things are being made right though, and the loose ends are being shipped out (including your tanks).
Finally, I suppose I should apologize to the list. I don’t think this is the place for rants, although many of us do on occasion. If anyone has any questions, please don’t hesitate to email me off-list.
Working hard to finish up,
--
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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You probably need some extensions or updates. On your browser, go to Tools/advanced/update, check automatic download and install updates. That keeps me running, Larry
[quote] ---
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I agree 100% once they have your money you are at their mercy. I have had several people ask me where to send their cranks and the check and I told them to send the crank and they could pay for it after it was ready to ship. I believe it is a simple fact that if you pay someone for a part you should never have to give them more than 25% that way they have to work for the rest.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/17/2007 8:39:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n801bh(at)netzero.com writes:
| Quote: |
Rule number 1 towards being a "honest" businessman.
Don't cash or run through a customers credit card payment till you have shipped the item. If you receive compensation and don't deliver that doesn't pass the smell test, in fact it borders on fraud. If you are really behind in filling orders then DON'T cash someone's checks....
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Thomas Henderson" <admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
I normally wouldn’t reply to an email like this on-list, and this will be my one and only on-list. Jeff, I sent both of those emails TO YOU Thursday (yesterday), and you WILL have your tanks in your hanger by next week. I did fall behind in things, as I believe everyone involved knows. However, the last bit of things are going out to those involved. They went out, or are going out, late, and that’s my fault. Anyone involved has been very gracious and patient and I appreciate that to the extreme. It does speak to the kind of people we have in the aviation community, as you mentioned.
I received the email below from you on Wednesday afternoon. Try as I might, it’s tough to get something back from the welder and across the country that soon. J I received a second email from you after that, which I will not insult the list with. Suffice it to say, you mention that WW (of Corvair engine fame) was on the receiving end of your wrath as well. We all get behind, even very behind at times, as was the case with both myself and WW. Things are being made right though, and the loose ends are being shipped out (including your tanks).
Finally, I suppose I should apologize to the list. I don’t think this is the place for rants, although many of us do on occasion. If anyone has any questions, please don’t hesitate to email me off-list.
Working hard to finish up,
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 7:54 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Scam artist
I would like to warn everyone about a man named TOM HENDERSON his email is admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com (admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com) he is selling snake oil and we all need to spread this to every list we are on. He claims to be advertising kits for the 601xl for 5,500.00 and then never delivers after he gets your money. I was asked by one person that wanted to build a 601 what I thought about this kit and price and I told him I had a gut feeling he was going to rip him off and sure enough he did. I am attaching his email he sent me regarding the 15 gal wing tanks he ordered and never received. He is now saying he will give 600.00 for each referral you send his way.... isn't that generous???? I am contacting the attorney general Monday morning and turn this ass hole in. I have found that the aviation community is comprised of mainly honest people and this guy really cuts deep into that. If anyone else has done business with this man please send me any info you can so I can take this guy out of business.
I was told that when he first started out he did deliver some parts but after he lost his job he quit delivering and kept the money.
I think a lot of people are afraid to speak out because they have a fear of never getting their parts but I have a news flash for those that have ordered parts (you never will) so send me a email off list so we can keep aviation honest.
Here are some emails I sent him and he sent to me.
FROM ME
Tom,
I think it has been long enough. I will expect either a check from you or the 15 gal. tanks, The builder (name with held) ordered these over 3 months ago. I also received another email you had sent out offering 600 for each referral. You need to make this right or I will be forced to take further action to insure you don't rip off any other builders. It is the 14th of Nov. I will expect the check or tanks by the 16th.
Good day
Jeff Garrett
297 Smith Ln.
Louisville, Ky. 40229
502-644-8123
REPLY
Sorry about that Jeff, I got involved in finishing up some other things and got behind. I'll get the tanks right out to you. I have several due back from welding Friday, which I will get right out to you. Thanks for the reminder.
I'll talk to you soon with tracking numbers.
No Call again
Next email
Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry to have caused a problem with your build schedule. I thought I had gotten the tanks headed your direction two months ago, and didn't give it any thought since I hadn't heard anything to the contrary. I let things get way to busy a month ago, but they're finally to a normal pace again.
I will definitely get your tanks out for you. I'm picking up from the welder tomorrow afternoon, and I'll give you a call shortly after that.
Talk to you tomorrow,
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jerry(at)jerryhey.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
| Quote: | We have also had to hear about people building parts and making assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does. However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
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As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing to sell.
[quote][b]
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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My position on this is:
If I decided to sell say wheel pants and could sell them for less than zenith I feel it is ok to do so as long as the person I am selling them to has a valid builder #. Your opinion is that if the scratch builder out sources anything he is somehow taking food out of someone else's mouth. Most scratch builders use Todds canopy because he is cheaper. I think where you should direct your attention is the prices you charge for certain parts. People wouldn't look elsewhere if the canopy wasn't more expensive from Zenith.
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
Bottom line is that if someone buys your plans you have given them the right to get or make their parts from anyone they choose and like it or not their are going be those builders that buy sub standard parts from the lowest bidder.
What everyone needs to think about before the send money for a deal that is too good to be true is the simple fact that if someone offers you a set of 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 that zenith sells for over a thousand then something is wrong because any smart business person that is selling them would be asking $900.00. What they are doing is banking on your greed to save a buck and then you are sucked in and you had dare not say anything on the list because you may never get your parts.
Enough I'm going to bed I worked on my 601 all night and BTW it has all Zenith parts.
In a message dated 11/18/2007 9:23:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jerry(at)jerryhey.com writes:
| Quote: |
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
| Quote: | We have also had to hear about people building parts and making assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does. However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
|
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing to sell.
| Quote: |
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klr12(at)psu.edu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Jerry,
I have to agree with you on this one. I purchased a set of plans and
the right to construct one aircraft, hence the serial number. If I
choose to fabricate every single part or choose to farm some work out
and pay another person to fabricate parts for me, should be my option.
If the dealers and manufacturers have the best product at the best
price, I would imagine they will corner the market. If they don't, then
I should be permitted to go find the best deal that I am comfortable
with. You know, we had this discussion a few months ago over on the
Corvair list. I do sympathize with the designers and dealers wanting to
recoup their costs and labor, but I just don't see the difference
between me building a part or paying my neighbor to build it for me. It
happens all the time in other industries. On the other hand, I've been
accused of being full of it most of my life so what do I know?
Kevin L. Rupert
601XLTD/Corvair
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that sells
repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's product. The
actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not having
the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree with the
plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
Jerry Hey wrote:
| Quote: |
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have
> no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
> their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does.
> However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
> blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
> Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even
> builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion
would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed
flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some
builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit
quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the
certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your
sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would
funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more
thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
to sell.
*
*
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Larry,
I would have to disagree.. If a person buys the plans from zenith they then have the right to that intellectual property. So as long as a supplier of parts verify's the builder # is valid the supplier is doing nothing wrong and the builder has every right to buy that part from them.
Isn't it kind of a double standard to sell a scratch build set of plans and then say you must buy all the parts you can't make from us?
Don't get me wrong I think zenith has a great product and I support them 100% and even told Sabastion about Tom Henderson but Zenith can't have it both ways.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:22:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, larry(at)macsmachine.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that sells
repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's product. The
actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not having
the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree with the
plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
Jerry Hey wrote:
| Quote: |
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
> We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
> assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally have
> no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
> their idea’s for Chris Heintz’s designs like William Wynne does.
> However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
> blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
> Zenith does, then try’s to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy even
> builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>
As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a open
market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical conclusion
would prevent selling of partially built projects or even completed
flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational rule. Some
builders on this list have stated that they are not impressed with kit
quality. They think they can do a better job than the factory or the
certified dealer. Again Buyer beware!! I don't doubt your
sincerity for a minute but eliminating competition clearly would
funnel more income into your business. You need to give it some more
thought. Regards, Jerry
P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have nothing
to sell.
*
sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================
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See [quote][b]
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psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I wish to make one more little twist in this exchange. I tend to
agree with Jerry on this whole issue - buyer beware. However, I have
a great deal of sympathy with those who support Zenith and Zenair and
the rest of the businesses supporting CH's designs.
In the end it is the individual builder who must determine the
quality and suitability of each part that goes in the plane which he
builds. This is true for parts from any source including Zenith and Zenair.
Chris deserves protection on the entire design of each plane under
intellectual property laws, but even he has probably copied most of
the details of his designs from other pre-existing ones. That is the
way of engineering. Still, a builder who uses Chris and his
pretenders at Zenith as the major starting point for his design owes
them a license fee. That is paid in the form of a fee for the
drawings that includes the right to build one airplane. (As many of
you already know, I strongly object to the fact that there are
perfectly good engineers who modify Chris's drawings without adding
their name to the information block at the bottom of the
drawing. These are the "Pretenders" I talk about since it appears
that Chris did the work when indeed it was someone else.)
For the most part, I don't think Zenith and Zenair have any
proprietary rights in the airplane designs. These companies produce
parts for sale to builders based on Chris's designs. They have no
right to tell anyone not to build parts without paying license
fees. On the other hand, they produce very high quality parts and
sell the service of aggregating the parts into kits. These are very
valuable services which rightfully earn the fees charged. I feel I
have received my money's worth from Zenith for the XL kit I purchased
along with the technical support received. I am happy to recommend
these products to anyone.
For me, the bottom line responsibility goes to each builder. He must
determine which supplier to use for each part that goes into his
plane. It is his "Bottom" which will be sitting in the plane. There
is no single right answer over whether to buy materials from one
supplier or manufactured parts from another. There is no single
supplier of materials that is acceptable, and there is no single
supplier of manufactured parts which is acceptable.
As always, this is just my opinion.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 07:20 AM 11/18/2007, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that
sells repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's
product. The actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned
project risk not having the quality, dimensional or material match
up that would agree with the plans. That risk would be doubled for
the person's parts sold in dishonest competition with a company from
which he has stolen intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
Jerry Hey wrote:
>
>On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:46 AM, ZodieRocket wrote:
>
>>We have also had to hear about people building parts and making
>>assemblies for Zenith Kits. This will always go on, I personally
>>have no issue with someone creating a new assembly and selling
>>their idea's for Chris Heintz's designs like William Wynne does.
>>However, I do take pause when I see scratch builders using the
>>blueprints Chris has developed, makes the exact same parts that
>>Zenith does, then try's to sell them at a cheaper cost. One guy
>>even builds ready to fly planes from scratch and claims it is a Zenith kit.
>>
>As long as there is total disclosure, i.e. the builder says he is
>selling a scratch built part from the Zenith plans then it is a
>open market place. Your proposal, if carried to its logical
>conclusion would prevent selling of partially built projects or
>even completed flying airplanes. Buyer beware is the operational
>rule. Some builders on this list have stated that they are not
>impressed with kit quality. They think they can do a better job
>than the factory or the certified dealer. Again Buyer
>beware!! I don't doubt your sincerity for a minute but
>eliminating competition clearly would funnel more income into your
>business. You need to give it some more thought. Regards, Jerry
>
>P.S. I am just thinking about scratch building a 701 and have
>nothing to sell.
>*
>
>*
|
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Jerry, Your right in your observation, the way I wrote it would lead to putting more work into the hands of the Approved shops that have the resources, use Zenith parts and have done the work many times. However, lets now consider the person who wrote the letter, I have been shown as the Biggest supporter of the scratch building way of building your Zenith plane. My building websites are www.ch601.org, www.ch701.com these websites are dedicated to the plans builder and I am the person who built both sites with the valued input from members of this list. Further to that you will find many people who have come to me asking Can-Zac to build a set of wings or a fuselage. Your right I will not turn away the work if it ever comes to that, but I spend a good amount of time Talking to the customer first, telling them how doable the work is and even recommending the DVD series from www.homebuilthelp.com. So far 90% of the work I could have done has been completed by the owner, and the letters that follow with Thanks are more important. Every Oshkosh, I stand up and not speak of the benefits of buying a Zenith kit at the forums, but I teach how to plans build, how to source material and how to make tools to accomplish the job.
During the Zenith open house, I didn’t show people how to build their panel or paint there plane, I spent a couple of hours teaching how to plans build, and I made the workshop hands on so each and every participant left with a part for a 601 or a 701 that they created themselves.
Are these the signs of someone who try’s to filter work to the Official bodies? Not in my eyes, I would rather see someone do it themselves, be proud of their accomplishment when they stand back. Now let’s really look at the company, over the years they have added press dies for all the formed parts, they now have a CNC router for pre-drilling and quality is improving all the time through investment.
Chris Heintz made a decision a long time ago to provide people with plans to build their planes, often cheaper with significant increase of hours. Plans cost are cheap for the intellectual property involved, and they allow a builder the ability to build ONE plane from each set for personal use. This is a gentleman’s agreement between the builder and Chris Heintz. What does the Factory get out of this arrangement? They get the opportunity to support the builder through the whole process, it does not matter if the builder bought a set of plans or a Quick build kit they are one in the same and in most cases, the company’s employees must spend a lot more time with plans builders then a kit owner. They also tend to teach the plans builder how to do something that is already completed in the kit. SO the company actually loses money, in a plans builder that buys nothing from them. What would the logical conclusion from that route be? Where would the funds come from to keep the people at the factory working, where would they get the funds to bring new aircraft to market?
IF this was a threat in any way actually then you would not have seen plans still being available for the 601 or the 701. But lets remember, many on this list are not in their 60’s or 70’s and the plane they are plans building now is likely not to be the last one. I want to see future models available by plans, but why would any company just hand over the blueprints for others to copy and make parts and assemblies to sell in direct competition with the designer, in my world it doesn’t make sense. In the Aviation world less and less companies are selling plans and more and more are only selling Quick Built kits. Is this what we want to see as standard practice in the future. I can’t afford a QBK, heck when I started I could hardly afford the plans for my Osprey 2, with a new wife, a new house and a starting family.
In your letter, you state “as long as there is total disclosure..” Unless these parts made from the blueprints are followed with a serial # then they are stealing from the designer. Selling partially built projects is not a problem if for some reason someone’s life situation becomes a conflict with there project, as long as the serial # accompanies the parts I have no issue if the parts are plans built or kit built. However, I do take extreme issue with parts being produced from the plans, exactly the same as the blueprints and sold without serial # , in direct competition with the company that provided the ability to do so. This is not competition in reality, Vans/Rans/ kitfox is competition, selling a builder plans so that they can make the parts on the plans to sell on a ongoing basis is simply stealing in my opinion. If a builder comes up with a new FWF package different then what Zenith or it’s affiliates offer or if they come up with a new wing root fairing then I will support their ingenuity to offer these things for sale. We had one builder come up with plastic or fiberglass tanks, good for them, if they work and are reasonable then I won’t stand opposed to them professionally, I would only offer thoughts about alcohol content and testing to ensure that the builders get a good deal.
If a builder believes he can do a better job then the factory, excellent, one such example is the 701 with the lizard on the side, it has won many awards at shows. I would love to see many more builders take the time necessary to build a Zenith design that wins Grand Champion. But would that be reasonable for a company to spend that many extra 100’s of hours to produce a kit of that Quality? Would the reflecting cost increase be realistic. Can the kit be improved up, yes and I love seeing builders spending the extra 100’s of hours doing so, it shows the true craftsmen we all strive to be.
So Jerry, you as a new person to the list and not having the chance to read over the archives judged my intentions from one letter, I will try to watch that view in the future. But those who have been on this list for awhile, know I have been a member of this list from day one. I am a big supporter of the plans builder and was on this list longer as a plans builder then as Can-Zac Aviation. I had to make a decision to stay on this list after I became Can-Zac, but with my history on the list I believed that people would still accept me as a builder more then they take me for Can-Zac. Remember, I still make my personal planes from plans, I enjoy designing and working with metal as well as trying new things. But when working for customers I do not add any of my influence, I only work with the Zenith parts and kits.
I know I got off track a bit with this letter, but understand that I want people to realize their dreams. Accomplish their goals, If it gets to be too much I offer a lot of resources for them to do the work themselves. Only after all of that do I agree on doing work for them. I offer builders assistance in my hanger for the homebuilt market and experimental. I want to see builders do the work themselves, learn and grow to realize the accomplishment that they can achieve. If you think I am only trying to filter work, you are vastly wrong in my intentions and actions over the last 3 years. I have helped more people realize they can do it themselves then I have ever done work for.
As for builders assistance, I have seen very good people out there with great intentions. I have also gone to court to support a builder that trusted a “Qualified” builder assistance that destroyed the plane, and still had the nerve to charge $35,000. I don’t know the qualifications of each and everyone out there that offers builders assistance. I do know the abilities of the Zenith dealers and can recommend them fully. IS this filtering, yes, but I look at it as avoiding the unscrupulous that I have seen offering assistance, they talk a great talk and can make a person confident in them, but do they have the support of the company?
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)
www.can-zacaviation.com
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Just a thought, I certainly am not wanting to get into any type of argument.
Did it cross your minds that Zenith's price is just too much in the first place. I think that $995 for two very thin walled 10 gallon tanks is a little over board. I had two brand new ones and sold them for $750. They were so thin I think you could thump on them and put a hole it them. I just had a 20 gallon, safety foam filled .125 walled aluminum tank built with all the fittings for less than a third of that including shipping from Florida to Arkansas. It's for my new 701 belly pod (HawgBelly) I will be offering someday. Someday is when I can get a new engine in SkyHawg so I can test the flight effects the HawgBelly will have. I have put pictures on my site, just click on "Sneak Preview". Don't have an idea of prices yet, suggestions, with tank, without tank? The first tank I have is a little too heavy, next ones will be about half as thick. Should be about 10lbs. The pod is 17 lbs without the tank.
I used to sell 701 14 gal fiberglass wing tanks for $700. I quit because of the liability. I am going to offer aluminum ones soon built by someone else. $600/$700 for a couple of 15 gal tanks sounds about right to me.
Thanks, Larry www.skyhawg.com.
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