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N289DT Accident
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tintopranch

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 12

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: Re: N289DT Accident

Tim, Thanks for taking the time to give us some background on the accident.  I have about 100 hours on my RV10 and this crash hit me hard.  I am always looking for ways to minimize the risk of flying and I have had my share of close calls over the years of flying (1600 hrs). This kind of tragedy makes you take a good hard look at yourself.



This reinforces what I believe is the way to long and successful pilot's life:

1)  Take baby steps with your flying experience (example: do not go from a simple certified plane to a complex experimental without proper training and experience)

2)  Fix the little things, because in flight they can become an enormous  distraction.

3)  Take your time to do it right (ie. safe), because flying does not always give you a second chance.

4)  Do your homework, like this forum, manuals, etc.

5)  Minimize you risk when you fly,  never combine a new plane, new pilot, new engine, IFR, night flying, etc.  Pick one and work with it awhile until you feel you can handle it in an emergence situation, then take on the next one.



Sometimes, I do not follow my own advice....this accident has made me much more critical of myself.

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_________________
MARK SUTHERLAND
RV-10 40292
Flying since June 07

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: N289DT Accident

I could not agree with you more John.  We should never stop expanding our piloting skills and if we don't feel comfortable with something, stop and get help.  Everytime I go flying with an instructor, air traffic controller, airline pilot, aerobatic pilot and high time pilot, if I let them critique my skills and open myself up to criticism, I always learn something new or have something pointed out to me.  We all have good and bad habits.  



One thing I picked up on in Tim's write-up that I have talked about with my wife even before Dan's accident is the increased danger of flying single pilot.  I can understand why insurance companies like two pilots in the cockpit of certain jets, it is simply safer to have two brains working on conducting a safe flight.   How many guys have taken an accidental cat nap while flying?  How many of us get distracted with something and forget to look outside?  If you have ever had someone fly with you who is very good at cockpit management, you will understand how nice it is.  I love having someone read off my checklist for every aspect of the flight.  Even if the person in the copilot seat is not a pilot, you fly safer because you don't want anything to go wrong.  I  know a person who fell asleep and flew into a mountain, luckily he is still alive but will probably never fly again.  It is just a risk factor that is added to the sum.  Reviewing the NTSB teaches you that typically accidents are not one thing.  They are the sum of multiple risk factors that reached a critical mass.  This is not the case all the time, just most of the time.

I think this is what John is pointing out in his e-mail and in Tim's write-up as  well.  We all know this stuff but it good to be reminded. 



I want to make a comment about the DAR. When I had my plane inspected, he spent 15 minutes looking at the plane.  I don't think the DAR can fully inspect true defects, it is up to us to get good experienced builders to look at the workmanship of our planes.  My biggest concern on my first flight was to make sure the engine ran flawlessly.  I flushed my tanks 3 times to insure I had no large pieces of proseal, I did a flow test to check that I could sustain a 30 gph flow rate with the electric fuel pump and make sure there were no clogged lines, and I pressurized the system to check for any leaks.  If you are relying on the DAR to let you know where all the problems are, think again.  I'm sure there are some incredible DAR's who really understand systems, and not so great ones.  To me, the DAR is there to do paperwork.  Like I mentioned, we spent 15  minutes on the plane and literally 4 hours on paperwork, review of my manual for all steps checked off, engine and prop log review, ect......   With Light Sport registration and all the new Experimentals flying, these guys are very busy and do a very wide range of aircraft.  



This won't be the last accident.  I am concerned that IMC related accidents will top the list after 5-10 more years.  The invention of glass cockpits is incredible but it does increase your situational awareness even though you can't see outside which in turn increases our confidence of flying into IMC conditions.  Hopefully with weather info and better icing data, this won't be the case.   I sure would like to see some data on the RV-10 over time showing it is one of the safest 4 place plane on the market. 



Just remember, if anything does happen and you have to make a forced landing, the insurance company is now the new owner.   

I like the way Wayne Handley signs his posters, "Keep your Knots Up, Speed is Life". 

I think he writes that so that you'll think about it in emergency situations. 

Fly the plane to the ground. 

  

Scott Schmidt



Do not archive



---

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John Kirkland

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 19
Location: South Weber, UT

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: N289DT Accident

Well, I guess the Epistle of Tim explains why we haven't seen a preliminary NTSB report yet, despite the fact that there are several accidents, some experimental, that are already on the NTSB site that have occurred since Nov 2. The investigator will have his hands full for some time. I haven't mentioned to my wife yet that another builder has had a fatal accident, I don't even know how to broach that subject. When we were deciding on building experimental vs buying used type certificated, I took her around to see RV-7 and RV-9A projects under construction. "See honey, it's just like a real plane....."



Thanks Tim, I think the Finance Committee will keep my project alive.  Do not archive.

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_________________
RV-10 #40333
N540XP (reserved)

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: N289DT Accident

Scott,



  I don't know if Wayne is/was a fighter pilot, but that is the term we used in combat....i.e. "SPEED IS LIFE!"  Gotta have knots to fight at the merge!



  However, you are correct in "flying the plane to the ground."  Van writes about this very subject in past RVators.  A friend of mine over here on the east coast recently did just that.  Engine failure at low altitude....could not restart...then concentrated on flying his plane to the ground.  RV7 was totaled,  but be walked (hobbled) away.



Zack



I like the way Wayne Handley signs his posters, "Keep your Knots Up, Speed is Life". 

I think he writes that so that you'll think about it in emergency situations. 

Fly the plane to the ground. 

  

Scott Schmidt



Do not archive



---[/quote]

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_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: N289DT Accident

It's now been almost a full 24 hours since I let that out to the list.

I had no idea what I was in for when I did.  I was receiving about 2

emails every 5 minutes or less all the way up until 1am when I finally

gave up for the night.  Then this a.m. they just kept coming.

Lots and lots of concerned RV-10 builders and many of them shared their

thoughts with me.  If for some reason I missed replying to you,

please excuse me...I was trying hard to keep up.

I really have to hand it to this group, and you all make me proud of 

you.  It is very nice to see that we haven't gone overboard with

accusations, rants, and all sorts of other negatives with all this

info to discuss.  Everyone for the most part has been handling it

very well, and no rocks are being thrown.  We've consistently shown

that this particular gathering of RV-10 builders can handle such

discussions in a more civil way than almost any group I've ever been

a part of.



Thank you all for your attention to safety, and your appreciative

words.  Other than a couple of worries about insurance, there

have been zero negative comments directed my way, and I think the

underlying message hit home in just the way it needed to.  Most people

are expressing relief by their spouses or themselves, and now know

that through their own diligence, they will likely not have the same

worries. It was also nice to see this not turn into a total bash

fest on alternative engines, which will get us nowhere in the

discussion.  When there are failures of products or components,

if you can't feel comfortable telling others, then you're not

providing a good service to your fellow builders, so it's important

to share, be it a Subaru, Lycoming, LS-2....your challenges are

important to others.  Everyone has an opinion, and they can be plenty

valid without turning so negative that a conversation can't take

place.



There were a couple of items that I just updated this afternoon

and tonight.  One to clarify something, and one was something that

I remembered after being reminded from another party that saw the

same thing.   If you re-read it and search for the string

"in PA with", and "cleco", you should find those two lines.

I tried to get it right and be complete the first time, but I missed

the mark just a touch on this.  There was also a correction made

in that one of the door incidents I described wasn't technically

build-for-customer...it was a build that was one of the first in a

series that was later sold to a customer...not specifically originally

built for that person.  At any rate, in the interest of accuracy,

I corrected the wording to allow for that a bit in the early

part of the read.

Thank you all for being so receptive, and taking it all to heart.  I

very much view this accident as completely preventable, and am very

disheartened that we only made it a few short years before we had a

fatal.  I think if we try, we can extend the time until the 2nd

one for many times more duration...but that's all up to us.

I agree highly with Scott.  I think that ultimately the accident

pattern we will see with the -10 will be similar to the Cirrus...it

will be things like CFIT, icing, and storms that will be the demise...

all things that the pilot is easily able to control by cautious

piloting.  There is nothing inherent in the RV-10 that will cause it

to bite with deep teeth, and we are all in control of our destiny.

Thanks once again, and if I'm a little slow on the replies, please

give me a little leeway...I only got about 30 minutes of real

work done today at work, so I kind of have to get back in the

game. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Kirkland wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jskirkland(at)webpipe.net>

 

 Well, I guess the Epistle of Tim explains why we haven't seen a

 preliminary NTSB report yet, despite the fact that there are several

 accidents, some experimental, that are already on the NTSB site that

 have occurred since Nov 2. The investigator will have his hands full

 for some time. I haven't mentioned to my wife yet that another

 builder has had a fatal accident, I don't even know how to broach

 that subject. When we were deciding on building experimental vs

 buying used type certificated, I took her around to see RV-7 and

 RV-9A projects under construction. "See honey, it's just like a real

 plane....."

 

 Thanks Tim, I think the Finance Committee will keep my project alive.

 

 

 -------- RV-10 #40333 N540XP (reserved)

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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: N289DT Accident

John;

A suggestion- let your wife know! the one advantage of building versus 

used.. you know where the flaws are and it's new, plus you can fix any 

issues to your standards.

My wife is always asking what trip Tim took today or what did Tim say this 

week.. she loves the guy!!  I tell you this because she knows that this guy 

takes his wife and two daughters everywhere and she gets my condensed 

version to boot, so when I told her about the accident she thought it was 

totally sad and we stopped and prayed for the family and others, than when 

Tim put out the NTSB (New Tim Safety Brief) she was very interested in 

hearing what it said, the e-mails to back the trail of events in his 

commentary said a lot for the facts to back what happened (kind of scary he 

has all our e-mails actually) when she saw that the plane wasn't technically 

the dangerous piece of the equation it opened a great discussion, that once 

again got her very involved with the project.

If your wife finds out on her own there is always too much room for her 

interpretation. Show her the 6 page report and suggest to give her the 

summary- get it out there and discuss how you would do it differently so you 

don't make the same mistakes..

just a suggestion that worked for me.. get her excited about where you'll 

take her, get her involved and get her opinion on matters, I know my wife 

isn't the only woman that has given me great insight during the building..



Pascal

#40720



Do not archive



---

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dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: N289DT Accident

Hi Tim,

I would like the authorization to read your post.

Thanks,

David Maib

On Nov 18, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

[quote] 

 Ok folks, I've received enough encouragement offline to share the  

 story

 that I think it's time for limited distribution.  You have no idea how

 many people who are nearing their first flight are becoming nervous,

 and how many wives of builders are starting to second-guess their

 projects.  This accident has touched some people pretty deeply and

 there is very understandable concern that they would just like to hear

 more information to give them something to understand the situation a

 bit.

 I warn you that you aren't going to find any smoking guns in the  

 story,

 so for those wanting that sort of thing, it's not here.  But, the  

 story

 does provide numerous opportunities for observation and introspection

 for the builder, to perhaps give you something to nudge you to do the

 proper thing if the time ever hits you.  Truly, attitudes are a  

 critical

 part of safe flying.  Even on my first flight, I had the opportunity

 to take off with a battery warning because I hadn't clicked in my

 alternator control wire plug tight enough.  I thought briefly about  

 just

 doing "once around the patch", but my conscience (developed from  

 reading

 so many "aftermath" reports) got the best of me and I decided to do  

 the

 right thing and fix it before I took off.  As you read the story

 you will see some reasonings that may shed light for you a bit.

 I ask of all of you to treat this with the utmost respect, because  

 there

 are still living members of his family that have deep feelings.

 Understanding accidents is important, and so is preservation of

 their well being.  So to help meet these needs, I have made this a

 link that you will need to log in to read.  This is made only

 semi-public to limit it's distribution to only RV-10 builders.

 Please do not distribute further for the time being.

 With that said, please feel free to read the following synopsis,  

 and not

 use it to draw "smoking gun" conclusions.  I do feel though that you

 will develop somewhat of an understanding.  Be aware that nobody is

 immune to this sort of thought process, so it is up to you and all of

 us to not become the second fatality in our RV-10 family.

 Here is the link:

 http://www.myrv10.com/builders/N289DT_accident.html

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Rick Sked wrote:

> 

> Speculation at some point is inevitable and I'm sure many just like

> myself have speculated privately about what happened but without

> substantiation. I hope that the cause is found and disseminated to

> everyone to prevent future tragedies. If Dan was able, he would post

> what happened during those last minutes to get the word out so the

> same fate did not befall anyone else. This whole incident has

> personally caused me to step back and rethink my entire outlook on

> aviation and aviation safety. I read the NTSB reports and several

> Aviation Safety magazines. They all promote thinking and provide

> insight to staying alive and flying, but all those reports and

> stories never left a pit in my gut like this one.

> Rick S. 40185 ---

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_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: N289DT Accident

Amen brother Pascal.   When building the plane, my wife knew

exactly what was bought, what was spent, and when I had an inner

conflict in what to do to either do an improvement, fix a boo-boo,

or do almost any kind of decision, I used her as my sounding

board.  For a lady who didn't know how to build an airplane,

it was very easy for her to come to a good conclusion if I

involved her in the full discussion.  She even got tired of

listening to me on some buying decisions and just said "I don't

care what you do." (Hey, maybe that's how I ended up with my

panel   )   So anyway, there may be people in your family

that initially think you're nuts.  Not only are they probably

correct, but you'll also probably be able to prove to them

that you've matured into a rational airplane builder along

the way and then they will begin to think you're sane, but

they'll be your best support you can get along the way.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Pascal wrote:

[quote] 

 

 John;

 A suggestion- let your wife know! the one advantage of building versus 

 used.. you know where the flaws are and it's new, plus you can fix any 

 issues to your standards.

 My wife is always asking what trip Tim took today or what did Tim say 

 this week.. she loves the guy!!  I tell you this because she knows that 

 this guy takes his wife and two daughters everywhere and she gets my 

 condensed version to boot, so when I told her about the accident she 

 thought it was totally sad and we stopped and prayed for the family and 

 others, than when Tim put out the NTSB (New Tim Safety Brief) she was 

 very interested in hearing what it said, the e-mails to back the trail 

 of events in his commentary said a lot for the facts to back what 

 happened (kind of scary he has all our e-mails actually) when she saw 

 that the plane wasn't technically the dangerous piece of the equation it 

 opened a great discussion, that once again got her very involved with 

 the project.

 If your wife finds out on her own there is always too much room for her 

 interpretation. Show her the 6 page report and suggest to give her the 

 summary- get it out there and discuss how you would do it differently so 

 you don't make the same mistakes..

 just a suggestion that worked for me.. get her excited about where 

 you'll take her, get her involved and get her opinion on matters, I know 

 my wife isn't the only woman that has given me great insight during the 

 building..

 

 Pascal

 #40720

 

 Do not archive

 

 ---

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brucelas(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: N289DT Accident

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