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CZ

Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 21

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: fuse

cJ6

I was having an electrical problem sunday, as in no power, and I found the 50 amp fuse blown in the box to the right of the pilot. 



1) does anyone know where to buy the subject fuse or a replacement? 

2) has anyone replaced these with circuit breakers? 

3) Does anyone have a readable wire diagram? 



Thank you

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: fuse

Answer:

For the fuse contact Doug Sapp. They work in the 50/52 also.

As for placing a circuit breaker... a 50 amp unit will work fine and solves

the problem of ever having to replace the fuse again.

No, I do not have a wiring diagram for the CJ. Do for a YAK 50 and 52

though.

Doc



--

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: fuse

CZ wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "CZ" <chriszimmer2002(at)yahoo.com> (chriszimmer2002(at)yahoo.com)



cJ6

I was having an electrical problem sunday, as in no power, and I found the 50 amp fuse blown in the box to the right of the pilot. 



1) does anyone know where to buy the subject fuse or a replacement? 

  	
 	
 I have them in stock .

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		  2) has anyone replaced these with circuit breakers? 	
 	
 I have not, but it should be possible.

  	  Quote: 	
		      	  Quote: 	
		   

3) Does anyone have a readable wire diagram? 

  	
 	
 There are very good fold outs ( first generation copies) of all the CJ6 elect diagrams in the back of the Tech. Spec. For Service and Maint. manual.  I have them as well as the other 8 CJ manuals in stock, give me a call (at) 509-826-4610 or drop me a email.

 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug

 [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  

Thank you





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=145441#145441







  	
 [b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: fuse

One comment.  I want to replace that fuse with a circuit breaker myself,

but keep in mind that the "reaction time" of a fuse is faster than the

typical aircraft circuit breaker.  Aircraft breakers can easily

withstand 150% of rated load for a few second before blowing.  Fuses

react faster than that.  



It's not usually anything to worry about... Just to note that there IS a

difference. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: fuse

You can unsolder the legs off the actual fuse itself, and go down to

Lowe's and search through their large bus bar type fuse collection and

find one that fits and then solder the legs back on to that, which is

what I did, and sorry, I did NOT write down the exact number off the

fuse.  Sorry, my bad. 



Better yet, go to Doug Sapp and buy one from him. 



Best of all.. Replace it with a 50 amp breaker.  



I am not sure how good Doug's bus bar fuses are, but the original

Russian ones are dog crap.  They fail internally from vibration. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: fuse

On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 One comment.  I want to replace that fuse with a circuit breaker  

 myself,

 but keep in mind that the "reaction time" of a fuse is faster than the

 typical aircraft circuit breaker.  Aircraft breakers can easily

 withstand 150% of rated load for a few second before blowing.  Fuses

 react faster than that.


	


And the issue is protecting the wiring. Go with a fusible link.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: fuse

I have had to replace only one of these fuses and that was due to my own 

#^&*^up. That was 13 years ago and I had a good stock of 12V T6/Harvard 

spares which included the virtually identical fuse. It is still working 

fine.



No question your best bet is a new one from Doug.



Walt



---

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: fuse

Correction;



Should read 24V --Brain fart, should read before sending! Don't use 12V.



Walt

---

l39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: fuse

Fuses generally protect equipment.  They come in fast-blow for electronics, slow blow for things with a powerup surge, and normal.  Wires are very tolerant of short duration surges and are generally protected by circuit breakers



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: brian-1927(at)lloyd.com

 Subject: Re: fuse

 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:53:21 -0800

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>

 

 

 On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, 

 MALS-14 64E wrote:

 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry 

 > Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 >

 > One comment. I want to replace that fuse with a circuit breaker 

 > myself,

 > but keep in mind that the "reaction time" of a fuse is faster than the

 > typical aircraft circuit breaker. Aircraft breakers can easily

 > withstand 150% of rated load for a few second before blowing. Fuses

 > react faster than that.

 

 And the issue is protecting the wiring. Go with a fusible link.

 

 --

 Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive

 brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 

 PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

 

 

 

 

&=======================
	


&g=======================

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Connect now!  [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: fuse

On Nov 19, 2007, at 4:56 PM, Ron Davis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Fuses generally protect equipment.  They come in fast-blow for  

 electronics, slow blow for things with a powerup surge, and  

 normal.  Wires are very tolerant of short duration surges and are  

 generally protected by circuit breakers


	


Well, actually no. Fuses and/or breakers are there to protect the  

wiring. Some people want them to do double duty and protect the  

equipment too but that is not their primary purpose. Devices are  

supposed to have their own protection internally.



And just because that is what is *supposed* to happen doesn't mean  

that is what really happens.



FWIW, when I wire up an aircraft, I normally install only one circuit  

breaker -- the alternator field circuit. The OV circuit is a crowbar  

across the field circuit thus forcibly shutting down the alternator  

by shorting the field to ground and popping the breaker. This is  

pretty hard to ignore. For everything else, there are fuses.



Far and away the most reliable devices are automotive fuses and fuse  

blocks. These are much simpler and more reliable the circuit  

breakers. In addition to using fuses I put the fuse block where the  

pilot can't get to it. This removes the temptation to dick around  

with things until you impact the ground. By placing the fuses out of  

reach the pilot just has to accept the fact that this circuit is out- 

of-service until (s)he lands.



BTW, if a circuit being OOS causes panic and chest constriction then  

you need to rethink how that circuit works and perhaps install some  

sort of backup.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: fuse

 	  Quote: 	
		   BTW, if a circuit being OOS causes panic and chest constriction  

 then you need to rethink how that circuit works and perhaps install  

 some sort of backup.


	


And before someone points out that resetting the circuit breaker may  

restore service to the critical circuit I want to add that being able  

to reset the circuit breaker is not likely to make the circuit work  

again unless the reason was a nuisance trip due to an undersized  

breaker. If a breaker trips off or a fuse blows it means something is  

wrong and you shouldn't be fiddling with it in flight. If a circuit  

is so critical that you can't do without it, having a circuit breaker  

doesn't make it better. Rethink the circuit so that you can  

comfortably complete a flight no matter which circuit fails.



Oh, and use fusible links for the bus feed from the battery and for  

the alternator output. They are a LOT more reliable than either fuses  

or breakers. That is why the automotive industry switched to them.



And for those of you wondering what a fusible link is, it is a piece  

of ordinary wire two wire gauges smaller than the wire it is supposed  

to protect. If something shorts your big circuit to ground the  

fusible link will burn instead of the rest of the wiring. They are  

easy to fabricate and dead-nuts reliable.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: fuse

And for some reason the Russians put big fuses in the main electrical panel, and then used switched circuit breakers to come off the main and feed the actual equipment.  Go figure.  



And for Brian.... Just sitting here wondering what the electrical difference was between a fusible link and an actual fuse.  I guess the only real difference is one has a holder and thus is USUALLY easy to swap out while the fusible link requires a wire cutter and new crimps to repair?    



Actually most fuse holders I have seen go bad before the actual fuse ever fails! Either corrosion attacks them, or the internal springs of some models causes the structure to fail. This is true except for the very best types of military models used in Govt. aircraft.  



 Some other things to ponder: 



1.  Some fuse holders are prohibited from being used in military aircraft since they are made from PVC.   Something to consider.  



2.  When a fusible link lets go, it means that the wire inside has MELTED.  An actual fuse has some kind of cover to protect that melting metal.  A fusible link has just the standard insulation.  When using a fusible link vice a fuse, placement of this link is critical as it is possible to achieve an open flame for a split second when it fails.  What is your view on that aspect Brian?  



Mark Bitterlich

--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: fuse

On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry  

Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 And for some reason the Russians put big fuses in the main  

 electrical panel, and then used switched circuit breakers to come  

 off the main and feed the actual equipment.  Go figure.


	


It makes sense. Protect the main feed from a gross overload and then  

protect the individual circuits (you have to do that anyway). I am  

talking about doing exactly the same thing but cheaper and more  

reliably. An automotive fuse block that is protected by a fusible  

link with individual fuse-protected circuits that are switched by  

ordinary switches is both cheaper (by a LONG shot) and more reliable.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And for Brian.... Just sitting here wondering what the electrical  

 difference was between a fusible link and an actual fuse.  I guess  

 the only real difference is one has a holder and thus is USUALLY  

 easy to swap out while the fusible link requires a wire cutter and  

 new crimps to repair?  


	


Yes. Oh, and it won't fail in-flight for mechanical reasons. And how  

often have you had to replace a fuse because it has blown to protect  

the circuit and how often have you had to replace it because it has  

failed, "I don't know why?"



 	  Quote: 	
		   Actually most fuse holders I have seen go bad before the actual  

 fuse ever fails! Either corrosion attacks them, or the internal  

 springs of some models causes the structure to fail. This is true  

 except for the very best types of military models used in Govt.  

 aircraft.


	


Precisely. That is the advantage of a fusible link and the automotive  

type fuse. The old 3AG-type fuseholder has very low pressure contacts  

and is prone to failure from corrosion. The automotive ATO/ATC-type  

fuse uses a high-pressure gas-tight contact (referring to the metal- 

to-metal contact) that is unlikely to fail during a normal lifetime.  

(Meaning, it will last longer than the rest of the parts in your  

airplane.)



 	  Quote: 	
		  

  Some other things to ponder:



 1.  Some fuse holders are prohibited from being used in military  

 aircraft since they are made from PVC.   Something to consider.


	


Consider that this is a different environment. We aren't flying  

military aircraft in combat so there is less chance of having to deal  

with in-flight fire.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2.  When a fusible link lets go, it means that the wire inside has  

 MELTED.


	


Same with a fuse.



 	  Quote: 	
		   An actual fuse has some kind of cover to protect that melting metal.


	


And so does a fusible link.



 	  Quote: 	
		   A fusible link has just the standard insulation.


	


No. The fusible links we use/make for aviation use are covered with a  

glass-fiber high-temp covering that prevents any flame from escaping  

and provides thermal insulation to prevent igniting nearby  

components. The fusible link burns through without damaging anything  

around it.



Here are pictures of how to fabricate a high-rel, high-safety fusible  

link:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fusible_Links/



 	  Quote: 	
		   When using a fusible link vice a fuse, placement of this link is  

 critical as it is possible to achieve an open flame for a split  

 second when it fails.  What is your view on that aspect Brian?


	


It doesn't happen for the reasons listed above. A fusible link is  

just as safe in its failure mode as is a fuse, perhaps more safe.  

Fusible links aren't damaged by impact and are completely insulated.  

You can drop a wrench on it and not have someone give you the  

callsign "sparky". Fusible links are impervious to vibration and  

moisture. I could go on and on but the bottom line is that a fusible  

link is better and cheaper than a fuse.



And consider one other thing -- most standard (3AG) fuses and  

breakers don't end up failing by doing their job of protecting the  

circuit to which they are attached. They usually fail for  

environmental reasons. Corrosion causes a high-resistance contact  

which causes the fuse to get hot and fail at a lower current.  

Breakers get "weak" with time. Going to automotive fuses and fusible  

links reduces this type of failure to a very low level, resulting in  

a more reliable electrical system over time. Add to that lower cost,  

better availability, and greater simplicity, it is difficult to see  

why anyone would want to keep going with more expensive, less  

reliable components.



OTOH, a side panel filled with $50 circuit breakers sure looks cool!  

But I can think of better ways to spend $750 than to protect 15  

circuits and look cool.



There is still one place to use a breaker: use it in a circuit where  

you might need to disable that circuit such as the alternator field  

or the power feed to your autopilot servo. Other than that ...



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: fuse

On Nov 20, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry  

Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 And for some reason the Russians put big fuses in the main  

 electrical panel, and then used switched circuit breakers to come  

 off the main and feed the actual equipment.  Go figure.


	


It makes sense. Protect the main feed from a gross overload and then  

protect the individual circuits (you have to do that anyway). I am  

talking about doing exactly the same thing but cheaper and more  

reliably. An automotive fuse block that is protected by a fusible  

link with individual fuse-protected circuits that are switched by  

ordinary switches is both cheaper (by a LONG shot) and more reliable.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And for Brian.... Just sitting here wondering what the electrical  

 difference was between a fusible link and an actual fuse.  I guess  

 the only real difference is one has a holder and thus is USUALLY  

 easy to swap out while the fusible link requires a wire cutter and  

 new crimps to repair?  


	


Yes. Oh, and it won't fail in-flight for mechanical reasons. And how  

often have you had to replace a fuse because it has blown to protect  

the circuit and how often have you had to replace it because it has  

failed, "I don't know why?"



 	  Quote: 	
		   Actually most fuse holders I have seen go bad before the actual  

 fuse ever fails! Either corrosion attacks them, or the internal  

 springs of some models causes the structure to fail. This is true  

 except for the very best types of military models used in Govt.  

 aircraft.


	


Precisely. That is the advantage of a fusible link and the automotive  

type fuse. The old 3AG-type fuseholder has very low pressure contacts  

and is prone to failure from corrosion. The automotive ATO/ATC-type  

fuse uses a high-pressure gas-tight contact (referring to the metal- 

to-metal contact) that is unlikely to fail during a normal lifetime.  

(Meaning, it will last longer than the rest of the parts in your  

airplane.)



 	  Quote: 	
		  

  Some other things to ponder:



 1.  Some fuse holders are prohibited from being used in military  

 aircraft since they are made from PVC.   Something to consider.


	


Consider that this is a different environment. We aren't flying  

military aircraft in combat so there is less chance of having to deal  

with in-flight fire.



 	  Quote: 	
		   2.  When a fusible link lets go, it means that the wire inside has  

 MELTED.


	


Same with a fuse.



 	  Quote: 	
		   An actual fuse has some kind of cover to protect that melting metal.


	


And so does a fusible link.



 	  Quote: 	
		   A fusible link has just the standard insulation.


	


No. The fusible links we use/make for aviation use are covered with a  

glass-fiber high-temp covering that prevents any flame from escaping  

and provides thermal insulation to prevent igniting nearby  

components. The fusible link burns through without damaging anything  

around it.



Here are pictures of how to fabricate a high-rel, high-safety fusible  

link:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Fuses/Fusible_Links/



 	  Quote: 	
		   When using a fusible link vice a fuse, placement of this link is  

 critical as it is possible to achieve an open flame for a split  

 second when it fails.  What is your view on that aspect Brian?


	


It doesn't happen for the reasons listed above. A fusible link is  

just as safe in its failure mode as is a fuse, perhaps more safe.  

Fusible links aren't damaged by impact and are completely insulated.  

You can drop a wrench on it and not have someone give you the  

callsign "sparky". Fusible links are impervious to vibration and  

moisture. I could go on and on but the bottom line is that a fusible  

link is better and cheaper than a fuse.



And consider one other thing -- most standard (3AG) fuses and  

breakers don't end up failing by doing their job of protecting the  

circuit to which they are attached. They usually fail for  

environmental reasons. Corrosion causes a high-resistance contact  

which causes the fuse to get hot and fail at a lower current.  

Breakers get "weak" with time. Going to automotive fuses and fusible  

links reduces this type of failure to a very low level, resulting in  

a more reliable electrical system over time. Add to that lower cost,  

better availability, and greater simplicity, it is difficult to see  

why anyone would want to keep going with more expensive, less  

reliable components.



OTOH, a side panel filled with $50 circuit breakers sure looks cool!  

But I can think of better ways to spend $750 than to protect 15  

circuits and look cool.



There is still one place to use a breaker: use it in a circuit where  

you might need to disable that circuit such as the alternator field  

or the power feed to your autopilot servo. Other than that ...



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: fuse

Good info as usual Brian.  



Mark

 



--

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