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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: required crew |
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That "required crew" may fly with the FAA but try it on the insurance company. The flight will likely be without insurance. In investigating this with my Glastar, our problem may not be with the FAA but with the insurance carrier. More than one on board implied no insurance.
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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Required Crew |
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My FSDO and many other feds (DC types) who should know have told me that required crew means ALWAYS required, not just during Phase I. As the builder you can specify any number of things, including how many crewmembers are required. If you feel you need two on board, you can so designate two required crewmembers, but they can't be required for some flights and not others. Big planes require two pilots all the time, they can't legally be operated by one for some flights but not others (I'm not absolutely sure about that, but you get the idea).
The answer to the problem of needing extra help is to fix the things that require so much attention before you fly. When something comes up, land and fix it. Like Scott said, take little steps. Leave everything off that's not absolutely necessary and then turn it on when you're bored stiff. You may become very un-bored quite suddenly when the autopilot does something unexpected or some noise comes through the headsets you've never heard. It's nice to be able to turn off whatever you just turned on, land, fix it.
We put off a few things like calibrating the AOA until Phase I was signed off, but we still considered the aircraft unfit for passengers. Only after we had taken care of all the items on our test plan, i.e., gross weight , aft C.G. dry tank, etc., that we considered necessary tests, did we opt to carry passengers. We still haven't taken backseaters because we haven't installed the crotch straps, something we decided was necessary first.
So as far as I know, no one at EAA or FAA condones any "crew" for RV or other amateur built first flights.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 3:52 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: First Flight Prep
I don't know the interpretation of the rules exactly and I'm sure the decision would go to the Supreme Court, but I attended a forum on first flights at Oshkosh two years ago and the lecturer stated that according to the FAA there are no situations where a second person is legal in a plane like an RV-10 during the flight test phase. I understand your argument if you read it word for word, but the answer must be in the reason that statement was made. He too had many people questioning his opinion. I suppose that if you had your rudder pedals on the right and the stick on the left, you may be able to sneak that one by them.
(Maybe that would keep my wife awake on long flights)
Can anyone give an example of when it is legal? The lecturer could not come up with a situation when asked. I can't remember his name but he is the same guy that does it every year.
Scott Schmidt
----- Original Message ----
From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 4:02:02 PM
Subject: RE: First Flight Prep
--> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)>
John,
Without commenting on what Dan did or did not do, nothing in the regulation prevents two people from being the "required crew" during Phase One.
As an RV builder YOU are the manufacturer so if YOU determine that you need two sets of hand, eyeballs and feet to fully test your new creation, I see nothing in the regulation that would prevent this. With some exaggeration, what if Boeing wanted to have a few additional test engineers aboard a new design to monitor instrumentation -- who are you or the FAA to say that they can't. That is why the FAA leaves it up to the manufacturer to determine the "required crew" during Phase One. That is not a limitation.
I wondered how long it would be before the finger pointing and name calling began from this tragic event. Now we know where it starts.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: required crew |
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David,
No insurance for whom? The extra pilot or ....?
As with so many things in aviation (and life in general), what is legal may not necessarily be prudent. That being said, if someone can't cite a regulation (after having time to research) then it is just their opinion and opinions without facts is just noise.
Personally, I cannot think of any reason for two "required crew" members in an RV-10. But just as IFR with two pilots is most ofter safer, if someone determined that the aircraft of their own manufacturer requires an extra person to monitor things during Phase On, I see nothing in the regulations to prevent this.
A few weeks ago I was perusing the NTSB reports and I came across this report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 060522X00601&key=1
This aircraft was just out of Phase I. Maybe in this case it was that extra cremember that didn't catch the oversight.
After I read that report, this picture immediately came to mind: http://www.matronics.com/forums/download.php?id=7337
I was just about to respond to the last question on the thread and then the N289DT accident occurred.
I try not to judge, I just hope to learn from the mistakes of others.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Required Crew |
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I bet that with 9 FSDO regions and 52 FSDO offices there are 52 possible interpretations on this.
For example, the Allentown FSDO approved an gear pump running light on my Cardinal. Another C177RG owner in Ft. Worth could not get the same approval.
FSDOs are fiefdoms and frequently disagree on the interpretation of regulations and policy.
I didn't mention pilots in my Boeing reference. Before the advent of advanced telemetry and digital datalinks, Boeing routinely flight tested aircraft with a bunch of flight engineers in the back monitoring aircraft and instrumentation. Maybe not on the initial flight but definately in Phase I.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: required crew |
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no hull and no liability for the owner.
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: required crew |
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I know my insurance company specified this to me directly
when i obtained my insurance....only me in the plane or
the insurance was invalidated.
Tim
David McNeill wrote:
[quote]
no hull and no liability for the owner.
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Required Crew |
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There is a difference between experimental approvals by homebuilders and
transport category manufacturers. If you want an official ruling I suggest
that the EAA rep contact FAA headquarters; they usually can get an official
answer that applies to all FSDOs
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: required crew |
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If there is a situation where the builder has a specific need for additional crew in the aircraft during the fight test period, FAA Advisory Circular AC 20-27E, CERTIFICATION AND OPERATION OF AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT, offers the following advice:
“If an additional crew member is required for a particular test function, that requirement should be specified in the application program letter for the airworthiness certificate and listed in the operating limitations by the FAA.”
The FAA will review each application on a case-by-case basis, and may allow additional crew if they feel there is sufficient justification.
EAA Position: We concur with the FAA that during all flight testing only the test pilot is allowed in the aircraft. We have yet to see a homebuilt aircraft that requires a co-pilot. If flight data needs to be recorded, make use of a tape recorder or other recording device to record flight data, e.g., airspeeds, engine instrument readings, etc.
[quote] ---
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