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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Jeff,
The person building is given a serial number and accorded the right to
buy or build parts as needed. That's the extent of his rights to
Zenith's intellectual property.
If that person buys parts that are Zenith design, fabricated and sold by
a person with no Zenith agreement for mfr property rights, that's
illegal and constitutes theft.
Obviously, many people don't see it that way, but that's the law and the
intended nature of the 2001 copyright by Zenith printed on the plans.
I didn't say everyone complied, nor does it apply to the scratch parts
that are abandoned and sold as Zenith has been paid prior to their
initial build.
I occasionally make parts that are accessory to Zenith parts, but never
make anything for sale that is in the Zenith inventory and my site says so.
OEM parts always have a property agreement behind them, at least that
was before China and NAFTA.
respectfully,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | Larry,
I would have to disagree.. If a person buys the plans from zenith they
then have the right to that intellectual property. So as long as a
supplier of parts verify's the builder # is valid the supplier is
doing nothing wrong and the builder has every right to buy that part
from them.
Isn't it kind of a double standard to sell a scratch build set of
plans and then say you must buy all the parts you can't make from us?
Don't get me wrong I think zenith has a great product and I support
them 100% and even told Sabastion about Tom Henderson but Zenith can't
have it both ways.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/18/2007 10:22:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
larry(at)macsmachine.com writes:
<larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Jerry,
There is a great deal of angst when we see a person selling someone
else's intellectual property. The scratch builder that abandons a
project is _not_ the one we're concerned about. It's the guy that
sells
repeat parts in competition with a designer and company's
product. The
actual materials and parts sold in an abandoned project risk not
having
the quality, dimensional or material match up that would agree
with the
plans. That risk would be doubled for the person's parts sold in
dishonest competition with a company from which he has stolen
intellectual property.
Larry McFarland 601HDS scratch built at www.macsmachine.com
*
*
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Larry, I hold nothing short of the highest regard for you, I consider
you a gentleman with ethics above reproach. You are the exact model that
is helping this industry and not destroying it. You have seen places
that can use new accessories and offer them as a compliment to the
Designers offerings.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701 just started
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com / www.Osprey2.com
--
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it) for recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the Drawings serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals, and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty. During the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and installations to be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority (FAA) prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of any Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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Matt Ronics
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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| Quote: | Did it cross your minds that Zenith's price is just too much in the first place. I think that $995 for two very thin walled 10 gallon tanks is a little over board. I had two brand new ones and sold them for $750. Thanks, Larry www.skyhawg.com.
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Did it cross your mind that, if you take your $750 tanks and add insurance/legal costs to this, that your final price might be closer or at $995???
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WClagg
Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I'm going to make this short and sweet, I know what I signed when I sent my buyer agreement in. Even if I hadn't signed an agreement I wouldn't be so low as to make money off the sweat of others. I drove 1400 miles in a three day period to visit the Zenith factory. After visiting with them I have a much greater appreciation for the folks there. They are feeding their families out of that factory. I scratchbuilt my 701 because I didn't have the money to buy the kit but when I needed something I turned to them first. Nothing I ordered took more than TWO working days to get.
With that said, I have been asked all month for a donation to support this list. In 13 months of building I have been helped ONE time but still enjoyed reading some of the posts. But I will no longer pay to read this crap. I'll be over on the Yahoo group until this B.S. starts there. Matt, I hate it for you as I know you mean well and it is a lot of work but I can't pay to support this. Man, what is the world coming to?
Wayne
In a message dated 11/18/07 13:17:30 Eastern Standard Time, wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net writes:
| Quote: | .aolmailheader {font-size:8pt; color:black; font-family:Arial} a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>
| Quote: | From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
|
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it) for recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the Drawings serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals, and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty. During the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and installations to be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority (FAA) prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of any Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146911#146911
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[quote][b]
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Wayne Clagg |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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This thread is a chicken or the egg debate. Many feel that if they bought the plans they have the right to buy or build the part the plans call for. And some feel if you buy that part you are in some way violating Zenith's rights. I think both sides are right. I don't make parts or sell them but if someone asked me to make them a part and they had a set of plans I wouldn't have a problem with that. But I wouldn't however make that part and just advertise it for sale that would be wrong. I see no difference in a person that doesn't have a welder asking a welding shop to do all the welding on his parts they made.
To take this to the extreme say the builder cut all the pieces for his wing tanks and then sent them to zenith for welding.... Would they do it for the builder? A lot of builders don't have roll forms, welders, shears, and the tools it requires to make some of these parts but in Mark's posts he seems to imply that if someone makes the 1 part for someone it should be done for free in the sprite of aviation but what he didn't take into account is the money it costs to buy these tools or the time it takes to make these parts. As I said Chicken or egg.
I have told people that want me to scratch build planes (With a builder #) that some parts I would make myself but the parts I didn't I would buy from zenith even if the cost was higher because I want to be sure what I am buying is # 1 safe and # 2 the proper material. # 3 To support Zenith .
That even goes for Todd's canopy. What I save in money is most of the time eaten up in the time it takes to make it fit.
This post was started to warn builders about Tom Henderson and I have no idea how we got here.
Jeff
601xl factory Kit
In a message dated 11/18/2007 8:29:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rclaggf4u(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | I'm going to make this short and sweet, I know what I signed when I sent my buyer agreement in. Even if I hadn't signed an agreement I wouldn't be so low as to make money off the sweat of others. I drove 1400 miles in a three day period to visit the Zenith factory. After visiting with them I have a much greater appreciation for the folks there. They are feeding their families out of that factory. I scratchbuilt my 701 because I didn't have the money to buy the kit but when I needed something I turned to them first. Nothing I ordered took more than TWO working days to get.
With that said, I have been asked all month for a donation to support this list. In 13 months of building I have been helped ONE time but still enjoyed reading some of the posts. But I will no longer pay to read this crap. I'll be over on the Yahoo group until this B.S. starts there. Matt, I hate it for you as I know you mean well and it is a lot of work but I can't pay to support this. Man, what is the world coming to?
Wayne
In a message dated 11/18/07 13:17:30 Eastern Standard Time, wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net writes:
| Quote: | .aolmailheader {font-size:8pt; color:black; font-family:Arial} a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>
| Quote: | From the buyer agreement that was signed when I bought my plans.
|
2. This contract permits the buyer to build one (1) airplane (or part of it) for recreational and educational purposes only. The type of aircraft and the Drawings serial
number must be visibly marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary
rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit
any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals, and
parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed warranty. During the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and installations to be
inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or aviation authority (FAA) prior to registration in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category.
The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing immediately of the sale of any Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or kit, whether completed or not,
supplying the complete name and address of the new owner(s).
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=146911#146911
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| Quote: |
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
|
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shilcom
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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AMEN, and AMEN
[quote] ---
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secatur
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 50
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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Why are so many posters to this thread listed as "Guest" ?
Are they members or not ?
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Matt Dralle
Site Admin
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 25781
Location: Livermore CA USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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| Quote: | --------------
Why are so many posters to this thread listed as "Guest" ?
Are they members or not ?
--------------
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Members that are subscribed to the email lists but are _not_ registered
on the Forum, will show up as "Guest" with their email address shown.
Only people that are registered specifically on the Forums will show
their Forum login and not "guest".
Inotherwords, just because they are "guest" on the Forum, doesn't mean they are
really a "guest" status. You cannot post on the Forum without being
registered (which a guest could do).
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
List/Forum Admin
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle(at)matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
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Matt Dralle
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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hahaha $600????
Ok, this makes me feel a little better. As crappy as my tanks may turn out, at least I know I can give it another go for about $30 to make another one, ok, maybe $70 if you include the sealer.
do not archive
| Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: |
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered. |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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I personally don't see the humor in it. Zenith charges I think 1250.00 for the 15 gal tanks. It seems to me you are worried about the tanks you are making leaking. Why don't you try and price having them welded and roll formed for strength and see how much they cost then. I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/27/2007 4:22:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
hahaha $600????
Ok, this makes me feel a little better. As crappy as my tanks may turn out, at least I know I can give it another go for about $30 to make another one, ok, maybe $70 if you include the sealer.
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
|
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148919#148919
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: of wrath and rants... |
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Uh, actually, I'm backing you up on this one, sounds like you're peeved that he's not doing his job, AND he's charging you that much. $600 just sounds like a lot of money to me for two tanks. Sure, having them welded is expensive, that's why I'd like to go with the sealer. Even so, how much work is really going into these tanks. I've just been farting around with them and it really didn't take me that long to make the general configuration per Zenith's plans. If he's making these tanks as a business the hard part would be welding, that's about it. I'd seem to me he'd be able to make one cheaper than that all tooled up for the deal. Personally, I'm just trying to find the best way to seal up what I've made, and if I need to remake the skin it'll take me all of 20 minutes, I'm just being anal about the edges where it seals to make sure I'm doing it right.
I'm on your side though, if he's making parts he should be able to complete them in a timely fashion, and seeing how there's about $50 worth of parts per tank, I really don't see the need for him to need the $600 upfront. I'd be peeved too.
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]I personally don't see the humor in it. Zenith charges I think 1250.00 for the 15 gal tanks. It seems to me you are worried about the tanks you are making leaking. Why don't you try and price having them welded and roll formed for strength and see how much they cost then. I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/27/2007 4:22:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz>
hahaha $600????
Ok, this makes me feel a little better. As crappy as my tanks may turn out, at least I know I can give it another go for about $30 to make another one, ok, maybe $70 if you include the sealer.
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
|
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148919#148919
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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sending money for tanks you never receive $600.00
Making a wing tank yourself (that might leak) $150.00
Paying someone to fix your leaking tank in 2 years $800.00
Buying the tanks from zenith and never having to worry again Priceless
Are you a wing tank builder??? No but I did stay at a holiday in express last night!!!!!
Boy do I need a drink
In a message dated 11/27/2007 6:44:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
Uh, actually, I'm backing you up on this one, sounds like you're peeved that he's not doing his job, AND he's charging you that much. $600 just sounds like a lot of money to me for two tanks. Sure, having them welded is expensive, that's why I'd like to go with the sealer. Even so, how much work is really going into these tanks. I've just been farting around with them and it really didn't take me that long to make the general configuration per Zenith's plans. If he's making these tanks as a business the hard part would be welding, that's about it. I'd seem to me he'd be able to make one cheaper than that all tooled up for the deal. Personally, I'm just trying to find the best way to seal up what I've made, and if I need to remake the skin it'll take me all of 20 minutes, I'm just being anal about the edges where it seals to make sure I'm doing it right.
I'm on your side though, if he's making parts he should be able to complete them in a timely fashion, and seeing how there's about $50 worth of parts per tank, I really don't see the need for him to need the $600 upfront. I'd be peeved too.
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]I personally don't see the humor in it. Zenith charges I think 1250.00 for the 15 gal tanks. It seems to me you are worried about the tanks you are making leaking. Why don't you try and price having them welded and roll formed for strength and see how much they cost then. I was taught not to throw stones in a glass house.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/27/2007 4:22:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz"
hahaha $600????
Ok, this makes me feel a little better. As crappy as my tanks may turn out, at least I know I can give it another go for about $30 to make another one, ok, maybe $70 if you include the sealer.
Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote:
>
> I do agree with you we need to have a list of reputable suppliers for parts so the Tom Henderson's of the world that sell 15 gal wing tanks for $600.00 and never deliver wouldn't have as much luck ripping people off. And their should also be a section for known con artists and people that take forever to send parts that builders have ordered.
>
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148919#148919
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) and top money wasters (http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002) of 2007.
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=148947#148947
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
[quote][b]
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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: of wrath and rants... |
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Actually when I drink, I m really a good welder.
Oh and a good lover, but dont tell my wife.....
[quote] ---
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