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tn3639(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Vans has just issued a service bulletin to be compled with BEFORE next 

flight on all RVs. Go to there web site and check it out...



Scott

tn3639(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

I don't think this includes the 10s



Scott

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "james frierson" <tn3639(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Fuel tank service bulletin Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 

13:54:27 -0600






Vans has just issued a service bulletin to be compled with BEFORE next

flight on all RVs. Go to there web site and check it out...



Scott

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Lucky....dodged that bullet.    Let me correct you...



"All single and 2 place RV's".



RV-10's need not worry.

Tim

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

james frierson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Vans has just issued a service bulletin to be compled with BEFORE next 

 flight on all RVs. Go to there web site and check it out...

 

 Scott

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb06-2-23.pdf



Ron Lee

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

I had flown  for 5 years and one day that flop tube did indeed back off its 

fitting and I ended up doing a 12 mile glide  which fortunately ended up 

with an uneventful landing on an airport.  So even though I have really 

tighten that son of a gun, I will probably bite  the bullet and safety wire 

according to the bulletin.  Once is more than enough.



Ed



Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com

---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

jsflyrv

Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 22

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Ron Lee wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb06-2-23.pdf



Ron Lee



  



How stupid is it to keep flying an aircraft when apparently there were 
	


indications that all was not well.



"The operator of this aircraft reported that, on

multiple occasions, fuel would not feed from the affected tank when the 

level reached

approximately one third full. This would be an indication that the 

associated fuel pickup

was loose or was not attached to the bulkhead fitting inside the tank."



do not archive.



 	  Quote:

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

PLEASE ARCHIVE this.



----Original Message Follows----

From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Fuel tank service bulletin

Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:21:28 -0800






Ron Lee wrote:



 >

 >

 >http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb06-2-23.pdf

 >

 >Ron Lee

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

How stupid is it to keep flying an aircraft when apparently there were

indications that all was not well.



"The operator of this aircraft reported that, on multiple occasions, fuel 

would not feed from the affected tank when the level reached approximately 

one third full. This would be an indication that the associated fuel pickup 

was loose or was not attached to the bulkhead fitting inside the tank."

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

If your flop tube falls off you have approx 3.5 gallons that you can not use 

in that tank (Rv-6A).  After my flop tube fell off (I initially thought that 

it had hung up on something), I would fill that  tank approx 1/2 full and 

while  flying tried to rock the wings and shake loose the "hung up" flop 

tube.  But, every time the fuel level got down to 3.5 gallons in that tank, 

the engine would start to sputter.  I agree its hard to understand why an 

individual would not notice that he could not use the last 3.5 gallons and 

fly depending on it.  I guess if you had burnt all the fuel in your good 

tank and expected to make it to the airport on the flop tube tank - it could 

catch you if it were the first instance after it had falling off.  While 

making the flights trying to "unhang" the flop tube, I always took off and 

landed using the other tank.



I finally bit the bullet and took the tank off, opened it up expecting to 

find the tube hung up - but, much to my surprise it was not hung up and (I 

had forgotten) I found that I had installed all the anti-hang fixes that Van 

suggested.  Then I reached in and picked up the flop tube - really puzzled - 

until it followed my hand out the access hole.  Came loose after 160 hours 

of flight time.



Ed



Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com



---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

George McNutt

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 30

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Looks to me like Van has hired a ex FAA lawyer to protect the company 

from litigation!



One question for you Ed, did you switch to the other tank, seems to me 

that should re-establish fuel flow.



George in Langley BC



Ed Anderson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



snip ---- one day that flop tube did indeed back off its 

fitting and I ended up doing a 12 mile glide  which fortunately ended up 

with an uneventful landing 



Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Well, there have been at least two events.  Maybe more.  So there are  

good odds that this failure will happen again.  I'm not sure the  

"perform SB before next flight" is warranted, but it would be prudent  

to operate as if this failure could occur on one tank on the next  

flight until both fuel pickups are safetied.  I.e. increase the  

assumed unusable fuel to allow a safe landing even if one fuel pickup  

becomes undone.  The hard part is knowing how much extra unusable  

fuel to assume - Ed's data suggests 3.5 USG is the value for an  

inverted tank pickup, but we don't know how much error this  

measurement has, nor do we know what unusable fuel to assume for a  

regular fuel pickup, if it becomes undone.

I'm a bit torqued as I just put one of my access covers back on last  

week, after fixing a tank leak.  But I'll pull them and do the SB  

before first flight.

Kevin Horton

On 24 Feb 2006, at 22:21, G McNutt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Looks to me like Van has hired a ex FAA lawyer to protect the company

 from litigation!

 One question for you Ed, did you switch to the other tank, seems to me

 that should re-establish fuel flow.

 George in Langley BC

 Ed Anderson wrote:

> 

> <eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>

>

> snip ---- one day that flop tube did indeed back off its

> fitting and I ended up doing a 12 mile glide  which fortunately  

> ended up

> with an uneventful landing

George McNutt

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 30

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Re; Vans Mandatory Fuel Tank Service Bulletin



I have just read this Mandatory Service Bulletin and I think it is going 

way overboard, someone at Vans has made a big Boo-Boo as far as customer 

relations goes.

It seems to me that the Time of Compliance - "Before further flight" is 

extremely harsh for all aircraft that have properly functioning fuel 

system(s).



(1) The MSB does not make any provision to ferry your aircraft back to 

your home airport or to a maintenance base. 



(2) What about alternate compliance?? - seems to me if I drain all the 

fuel out of the tanks, then add one gallon back into each tank and do a 

engine run-up using each tank I would soon know if the fuel pick-up 

sucking air, loose or missing. If I pass this test seems the MSB could 

wait for the next annual inspection.



My insurance and/or CofA may not be valid if I fly my aircraft  this 

weekend, thank you Van, and you can bet I will e-mail and telephone 

Van's first thing Monday morning, and I would encourage everyone who is 

effected by the MSB to call Van about this heavy handed MSB.



George in Langley BC

6A - 400 hrs

7A cowlings



 	  Quote: 	
		  

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb06-2-23.pdf

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Well, I don't know in the experimental homebuilt world just how 

mandatory a service bulletin can be made by a kit manufacturer. 

Afterall, you are the aircraft manufacturer, not Vans.

In the certified world, so called mandatory service bulletins are 

meaningless to Part 91 operations, unless there is a financial 

incentive(such as Hartzell is offering big discounts on their hub SB 

that is expected to become and AD, but only for the next 3 months). You 

can simply ignore them, unless the FAA issues an AD to enforce the SB. I 

don't know if that is true for homebuilt, but would be surprised if it 

isn't.

G McNutt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Re; Vans Mandatory Fuel Tank Service Bulletin

 I have just read this Mandatory Service Bulletin and I think it is going 

 way overboard, someone at Vans has made a big Boo-Boo as far as customer 

 relations goes.

 It seems to me that the Time of Compliance - "Before further flight" is 

 extremely harsh for all aircraft that have properly functioning fuel 

 system(s).

 (1) The MSB does not make any provision to ferry your aircraft back to 

 your home airport or to a maintenance base. 

 (2) What about alternate compliance?? - seems to me if I drain all the 

 fuel out of the tanks, then add one gallon back into each tank and do a 

 engine run-up using each tank I would soon know if the fuel pick-up 

 sucking air, loose or missing. If I pass this test seems the MSB could 

 wait for the next annual inspection.

 My insurance and/or CofA may not be valid if I fly my aircraft  this 

 weekend, thank you Van, and you can bet I will e-mail and telephone 

 Van's first thing Monday morning, and I would encourage everyone who is 

 effected by the MSB to call Van about this heavy handed MSB.

 George in Langley BC

 6A - 400 hrs

 7A cowlings

> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb06-2-23.pdf

>  

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

No, George, I remain a bit embarrassed to say I talked my self out of doing 

just that.  My poor rationale was that I knew I had 3.5 gallons left in that 

tank and therefore the problem must be something else other than the lack of 

fuel.  Of course, it turns out I DID have 3.5 gallons left - just couldn't 

use it.  Having been talking with another pilot the day before about cases 

of the slosh compound peeling off and plugging fuel filters, I convinced 

myself that my fuel filter had plugged and therefore switching tanks would 

not do any good.  Of course, if I had done what ever instructor I ever flew 

with told me to do and switched tanks - it would not have been an event.  I 

tell folks sometimes absolute knowledge is not necessarily a good thing. 

Had I been less certain about the fuel in that tank ( I have a fuel 

totalizer) then I may have switched.



I am happy to say that the decisions make after that bad one were 

considerably better {:>)



Ed



Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com

---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

dreel(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

There are a lot of flared tubing connections on an RV.  Why safety only this one?



Dave Reel - RV8A

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

These are the only fittings that CANNOT be inspected during a normal 

condition inspection. There was ONE know ACCIDENT from this connection being 

loose.



Van knows more about RV airplanes that I do.



Gary A. Sobek

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,

1,841 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA

http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com



----Original Message Follows----

From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: "rvlist" <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Fuel tank service bulletin

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:32:16 -0500






There are a lot of flared tubing connections on an RV.  Why safety only this 

one?



Dave Reel - RV8A

seiders(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Probably because it's one we don't have easy access to, or even see when 

changing oil etc. I like to put a wrench on the available nuts each time 

the cowl, wing root fairings, wheel pants etc are off. Makes me feel better.

Dick RV6A  400hrs

At 05:32 PM 2/25/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



There are a lot of flared tubing connections on an RV.  Why safety only 

this one?



Dave Reel - RV8A

lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

It's the only connection that Van's attorney is concerned with at this time. 

   

  Darrell

   

   

  

DAVID REEL <dreel(at)cox.net> wrote:

  



There are a lot of flared tubing connections on an RV. Why safety only this one?



Dave Reel - RV8A



		

---------------------------------

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

In a message dated 02/25/2006 4:35:38 PM Central Standard Time, dreel(at)cox.net 

writes:

Why safety only this one?

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>


	


My thoughts exactly. Gee- ain't the fuel lines FWF the same thing?  Losing a 

tank pickup absolutely SHOULD be a non-event, unless undiestains are 

considered.  You lose a fitting at the carb, fuel pump, fuel pressure line or bulkhead 

fitting and................



(Uh oh- will have to check Van's website tomorrow to see if there are some 

more MSBs posted)



I know a couple of good, decent lawyers, but also a $hitload of 'em that 

would sell their grandmothers for a buck (or several million, if at all possible)- 

 what a sorry comment on our society that Vans had to resort to this pitiful 

action.  We haven't heard from the insurance folks yet- J.T. are you 

listening?  Sure would appreciate your take on this (at your leisure and after you get 

out of conference with the attorneys!)



Do not archive - Mark Phillips

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

pblake(at)epix.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Here's the letter and e-mail I sent to Van.



February 27, 2006



Dear Van,



I was very surprised and disappointed on seeing your Mandatory Service

Bulletin requiring fuel tank changes.  In my case, I have capacitive probes

for fuel quantity measurement, and no inspection plate to remove.  Even if I

did have plates, theres less than a 2 gap between the wing skins and

fuselage of my RV6.  I wont whine about tearing up very expensive paint, or

removing the wings to get at the tank, or even that this may cause an

insurance problem if I fail to do it.  Instead, I question your logic and

your process of issuing this bulletin.



Im wondering why you didnt at least have a comment period so you could

gather input from the fleet, before issuing this bulletin.  The FAA finds

public comment useful; Im surprised you dont as well.



I have heard of two incidents involving alleged (your term) fuel pick-up

tube problems.  In one, there was plenty of warning that something was

amiss, yet the plane was flown anyway (rather than ground tested), without

determining and rectifying root cause.  Even then, it seems that simply

switching tanks would have prevented the accident.  In the second instance,

switching tanks would have prevented the accident as well.  How many times

have we heard of fuel starvation accidents where the pilot failed to switch

tanks, even though plenty of fuel was available in the other?  It seems to

me that pilot error was a major contributing factor in these accidents.

Perhaps an article on the importance of proper emergency procedures for

engine-out emergencies would have been appropriate, since that would address

prevention of such fuel starvation accidents.



Given a fleet of approximately 4500 aircraft, 2 incidents (both of which

could have been prevented by appropriate pilot action) represents an

accident rate of 0.044 %.  This level of risk doesnt seem sufficient to

warrant the draconian nature of your service bulletin  especially

unilaterally, without comment.



Further, it seems to me that a vanishingly small probability exists that one

tank would be dry while the fuel pick-up tube malfunctioned in the other, or

that both tubes malfunctioned at the same time.  These seem to me to be the

only conditions under which an engine stoppage due to fuel pick-up tube

malfunction could not be rectified by appropriate pilot action e.g.,

switching tanks.



Many will say that you did this to protect yourself from liability  a

completely understandable motive.  It seems to me however, that mandating

the opening of 9000 fuel tanks by amateurs, drilling of holes in sensitive

areas, resealing etc. (and in the case of those of us with capacitance

senders and no removable end plate, creating and sealing a large hole), not

to mention the obvious danger of fire when working around aviation gasoline

and fumes, is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.   It seems to

me that you expose your company to much more liability in the case of

accidents that will be construed as directly or indirectly caused by or

related to these repairs.



It seems to me that a more rational approach would be to mandate a bore

scope inspection of the fuel pick-up tubes, which could be accomplished with

minimum fuss through the fuel drain plug hole.   This would identify any

problems, go a long way toward protecting you from fuel pick-up tube

liability, and avoid entirely the liability of causing 9000 fuel tanks to be

drained (and not flushed with water), opened, modified and reclosed.



I encourage you to consider all the ramifications of your actions, first and

foremost with regard to safety.  Secondly, with regard to the thousands of

hours (and dollars) required for fleet compliance, and thirdly, with regard

to your reputation for pragmatism, concern for costs, and generally doing

the right thing.



Please rescind this bulletin, and issue another, more appropriate to the

actual risk-benefit relationships in this issue.



Sincerely,

Peter Blake

RV6

e-Mail: pblake(at)epix.net



DO NOT ARCHIVE



Peter H. Blake, Ph.D.

PrcisTrial LLC

60 Beverly Drive

Kintnersville, PA  18930



Office 	+01.610.847.8478

Cell     	+01.215.519.4603

Fax      	+01.610.847.8160

e-Mail 	PHB(at)PrcisTrial.com

dbentley(at)fuse.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: Fuel tank service bulletin

Peter Blake - well worded letter!  



 



There is a process whereby issues like this are addressed with respect

to propulsion systems for transport category aircraft, and accepted by

the FAA.  A Weibull Failure Rate can be easily generated with just the

data of the individual events and the flight hours at the time of

failure.  That Weibull is then used to generate a risk assessment of the

potential of a Category 3, 4, or 5 event, against the CAAM (Continued

Airworthiness Assessment Methodology) Guidelines.  It's a fairly simple

statistical assessment used to determine when an unsafe condition

exists, and if there is a reasonable, excessive, or high (ground the

fleet) risk.  As you have suggested, and is frequently used in the

transport world, if action is required, a recurring inspection is often

sufficient to significantly reduce the risk to acceptable levels until

the final corrective action is accomplished.



 



I'm extremely disappointed that Van apparently did not consider any of

this first, or at least failed to inform the 4000 of us flying that he

had made this assessment and this kind of extreme action was

statistically merited.



 



 



Duane Bentley



RV6



Home:  513-777-5491



 



 



GE Aircraft Engines



Office:  513-552-6051      



 



DO NOT ARCHIVE

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