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Paul Valovich
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 75
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn’t need to send any more $ to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved – again)
[quote][b]
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Valovich, Paul wrote:
| Quote: | So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn’t need to send any more $
to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved – again)
LSA's from China and for that matter, Walmart purchases, are spit in a
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rainstorm compared to the money we are borrowing from them against our
grand children's earning power to get good citizens killed over a pack
of lies.
If you're gonna get mad, prioritize.
Charlie
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Bob Perkinson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Where are you going to go to buy US made products? Most all the consumer electronics on the market are produced out of country. If we relied on US made clothing, most all of us would be naked. It is a struggle to find US made products. I am trying to make it a China free Christmas, but I don’t think I am going to make it.
About the only thing made in the US that is plentiful is the bull served up in the media. YMMV
Bob Perkinson
Do Not Archive
-
From: Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
| Quote: |
Valovich, Paul wrote:
> So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
> Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn’t need to send any more $
> to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
> Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
>
>
>
> Booger
>
> RV-8A N192NM (Reserved – again)
>
LSA's from China and for that matter, Walmart purchases, are spit in a
rainstorm compared to the money we are borrowing from them against our
grand children's earning power to get good citizens killed over a pack
of lies.
If you're gonna get mad, prioritize.
Charlie
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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dale1rv6(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Can I have a piece of this? Hehehe I think Bob is right. And...
Where are they making the quick builds.... Not USA.
It's OK with me. I always try to get something from the closest acceptable
place. That is often half a world away, but I try.
Dale
RV6a Quick Build 951 hrs
--
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787.
Terry
RV-8A N838T (Reserved) – not built in the Philippines, if that could possibly matter to anyone
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:10 AM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn’t need to send any more $ to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved – again) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
[quote][b]
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garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US versus China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30% more............and most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
[quote] ---
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andygold(at)rkymtnhi.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Work goes to the cheapest source that meets the required educational standards. It used to be that Chinese workers could barely make the give-a-way toys in Happy Meals. Now their country graduates 10 times more professional engineers each year than we do. The next manned moon landing will probably be Chinese.
Our country has already lost its agricultural base, its manufacturing base, and because we neglect our schools we are now losing our leadership in technology and innovation.
Any wonder why more Chinese kids are building airplanes and more of ours are serving biggie fries?
Flame-on
Andy
do not archive
| Quote: |
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:10 AM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn’t need to send any more $ to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved – again) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
5 |
[quote][b]
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Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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That’s easy to say but harder to do, unless you and your friends have a lot more money than the people the Cessna LSA is aimed at. It sells for about $110,000 so paying 30% more would make it about $143,000 plus tax, license and insurance, hanger or tie-down, etc, etc. But I doubt if it would cost that much more to build it in the US, Canada, or Mexico. I saw something on TV last night about some of the manufacturer’s of various products deciding they can increase efficiency enough to make it profitable to bring their manufacturing back home. It’s amazing what people can do when they face stiff competition.
But another great thing about markets it that they work on what people really do, rather than what they say they would do. You can bet that if Cessna thought they could get a premium above the added costs of building in the US, they would do it.
Imagine the uproar if Van’s announced that they were going to increase the price of quick-build kits say 25% and build them in Oregon.
Terry
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:53 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US versus China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30% more............and most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
[quote]
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truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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A lot of people think "Oh, the recession won't effect
me, I am too high in management,(or whatever). Take a
trip to Michigan and try and find a job. The Detroit
area used to be a large industrial based economy based
on the automobile industry. Now the auto companies
are realizing they are top heavy, as in too much
management. They blame bad times on labor costs in
the factories and then lay off thousands of workers.
Now management has noone to rule over, then management
gets laid off. All these people without jobs cannot
afford to buy the products they built. So auto sales
are down. What happens next? To save money, Auto
companies build assembly plants in Mexico, China and
who knows where. Suppliers are shipping in assemblies
from China, Taiwan, Mexico and South America where
they say labor is cheap. So all these foreigners are
making a wage, the auto companies are building a
higher profit margin vehicle (because they have
notlowered the price to reflect all the cheap labor
they used), and the buying public still cannot afford
their vehicles. Why? They still do not have jobs.
Foreclosures in the Detroit area are at the highest
they have ever been since the beginning of recorded
history. You cannot go down a side street without
seeing at least 7% of the houses on that street for
sale.
In one township, there are 1600 homes for sale,
including 90 foreclosures.
Keep on buying foreign products, keep buying your
Toyatas, Hondas, or any rice burner made. Sooner or
later, it will catch up to you and you will lose your
job. You will collect unemployment. You will lose
your house. You will be out on the street wondering
"Where did I go wrong?"
I am not against foreign trade, but I believe in
balanced trade, a dollar in, a dollar out. All these
fat business owners in their mansions, with Hispanic
maids and gardeners, driving their big Mercedes,
smoking a Cuban cigar thinking they got it made will
sooner or later be out on the street.
Unbalanced trade is like a cancer on this country.
Noone is immune. It will take some time to spread,
but spread it will.
How, you may ask do I know all this or can speak about
this? I am a victim of this cancer and I am fighting
back, slowly, but fighting back.
BUY US MADE, YOUR LIFE WILL DEPEND ON IT.
Dave Nellis
7A Slow build Made in USA
--- "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich(at)dcscorp.com> wrote:
| Quote: | So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to
me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need
to send any more $
to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all
those potential
Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
|
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
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panhandler1956
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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I was at OSH this year and I watched the ticker on the deposits go up by the minute (they had an electronic counter to help create a feeding frenzy).
Personally, I would want a refund. Nothing against Chinese folks, but if Cessna had my money, I would be asking for it back. I think this was a big mistake on their part as most folks in line to pony-up +100Gs were doing so because they think they are getting a Cessna.
In the motorcycle industry, the Chinese offerings have been total junk, they are getting better with all the dough we have going their way, but I won't be strapping my carcass to anything that says MADE IN CHINA. I know Van uses overseas labor, but Cessna is a "legacy" American aircraft manufacturer, they aren't selling **** like American (which I boycott). So when will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc, etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna.
Come to think of it, I building an RV so it's someone else's issue, except that I need the US economy to stay viable.
Rant over...................
__________________
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Brent O. |
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Bob Collins
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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//About the only thing made in the US that is plentiful is the bull served
up in the media. YMMV
Always with the shot to the media! (g) Sounds like folks here would be
happier living in China with their polluted air... the lead paint... the
government-line-and-only-the-government-line media.
Economies change. And, yeah, it's a shame Detroit is... well... Detroit.
But I remember the '70s when textile plant after textile plant and industry
after industry was moving out of my hometown in Massachusetts. to China? to
Mexico? Nope. To North Carolina.
So we developed a high-tech economy instead. Yes, there are still empty
factory buildings in my hometown. But the buggywhip factories closed too.
Despite the best efforts of people to make us think the only thing our kids
can do is work at McDonald's, I know better. We're thinkers. We're
innovators. We're doers.
When it comes to the future. I like our chances. Unless, of course, we waste
our time hoping it'll be 1957 again. Just because it IS in China, well, I'll
stay put thank you very much.
Now, who wants to come help me build an RV?
Do not archive
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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There may be enough undocumented workers from south of the U.S. borders in Orygun that he would only have to charge 7%. Ever stood in line at an Oregon emergency room admitting area? We have issued over 125,000 driver’s licenses to them. A benefit would be the shipping time reduction from maritime container shipments to ICC truckers. Tony could be constantly on the road. Oh yeh, he already is.
John C.
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:08 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
That’s easy to say but harder to do, unless you and your friends have a lot more money than the people the Cessna LSA is aimed at. It sells for about $110,000 so paying 30% more would make it about $143,000 plus tax, license and insurance, hanger or tie-down, etc, etc. But I doubt if it would cost that much more to build it in the US, Canada, or Mexico. I saw something on TV last night about some of the manufacturer’s of various products deciding they can increase efficiency enough to make it profitable to bring their manufacturing back home. It’s amazing what people can do when they face stiff competition.
But another great thing about markets it that they work on what people really do, rather than what they say they would do. You can bet that if Cessna thought they could get a premium above the added costs of building in the US, they would do it.
Imagine the uproar if Van’s announced that they were going to increase the price of quick-build kits say 25% and build them in Oregon.
Terry
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:53 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US versus China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30% more............and most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
[quote]
---
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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OK, devils advocate time.
panhandler1956 wrote:
| Quote: |
I was at OSH this year and I watched the ticker on the deposits go up by the minute (they had an electronic counter to help create a feeding frenzy).
It's called marketing!
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| Quote: | Personally, I would want a refund. Nothing against Chinese folks, but if Cessna had my money, I would be asking for it back. I think this was a big mistake on their part as most folks in line to pony-up +100Gs were doing so because they think they are getting a Cessna.
They are getting a Cessna. No matter what language the workers speak
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.... it's a Cessna .... Designed by Cessna, Vetted by the FAA, and
built by skilled workers ...... that happen to get paid less than their
American counterparts.
| Quote: | In the motorcycle industry, the Chinese offerings have been total junk, they are getting better with all the dough we have going their way, but I won't be strapping my carcass to anything that says MADE IN CHINA.
OK, that's your choice. I think your reasoning is flawed, however.
|
Would it be built any different in the USA??? Would it just cost more???
| Quote: | I know Van uses overseas labor, but Cessna is a "legacy" American aircraft manufacturer, they aren't selling **** like American (which I boycott). So when will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc, etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna.
OK, how about a 'Made In America' TV. Every sub-assembly is made
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outside the borders, and shipped to an assembly plant in the U.S.
Cessna might just be able to convince the Dept. of Commerce that
assembling all the big pieces (fuselage, wings, ailerons, fin, rudder,
horiz stab and elevators qualifies it to be 'Made In America'.
| Quote: | Come to think of it, I building an RV so it's someone else's issue, except that I need the US economy to stay viable.
We all need a stable economy. The high price of fuel, home
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foreclosures, rich lawyers, insurance nightmares ...... all are
crunching our economy. We still buy big gas guzzlers, stick our necks
out with ARMs or balloon mortgages, sue everybody that knows anything
about a product that failed (or didn't .... doesn't seem to matter), and
are forced to pay outrageous insurance premiums (I'm in FL) so we can at
lease try and enjoy what we got.
Our world (in the U.S.) is in deep trouble, and all I see is it getting
substantially worse. And I'm an incurable optimist.
Linn
do not archive
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Bob Collins
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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//Our world (in the U.S.) is in deep trouble, and all I see is it getting
substantially worse. And I'm an incurable optimist.
Everything will be fine as long as you don't name your teddybear "Muhammad."
Here's the thing. One of the reasons the world seems so screwed up is we
know about it. Never has it been so easy to instantaneously hear about every
little thing in every nook and cranny of the globe. Things seemed so much
better "back in the day" because we were so uninformed about it.
When I grew up in by Massachusetts mill-town -- a papermaking town -- eveyr
day the river (the Nashua River) was a different color. Literally bright
orange to neon green from all the chemicals manufacturers thought NOTHING
about dumping. The shoe plant and the lock factory belched crap in the air
day and night. No scrubbers, no filters.
Yes, we had a manufacturing economy to be proud of, and, man, did we ever
pay for it. We contaminated rivers, and shortened the lives of residents in
these manufacturing cities. We're still paying for it with brownfields and
contaminated, useless acres of land.
The other day a report came out that scientists pointed two giant telescopes
at one point in the sky for about 100 days. They got enough light from far
away over that time to detect "teenage galaxies" 12 BILLION YEARS AGO. We're
capable of actually looking back in time. Think about that. WE are only 4
1/2 billion years old and what we just looked at is now 7 1/2 billion years
(give or take) older than we are.
I can't explain it, but the more I think about that, the more I think swings
in the economy and the day-to-day nonsense aren't a big deal in the big
scheme of things.
the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
Do not archive
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Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/ |
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panhandler1956
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Linn,
Your points are not completely invalid - see I'm not a complete jerk.
I believe given the current movement of Americans to at least empathize with the notion that buying things from China more advanced than a toothbrush (lead included) isn't a good idea, for alot of reasons, even though they do it anyway. Airplanes are an emotional purchase and no one wants to pull up on the ramp at a fly-in after spending $100,000 on their "pride n joy" to have the locals start with the "made in china" jokes. Cessna is about to find out I am right - IMHO!
Good discussion - sorry not related to RVs.
Do not archive
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Brent O. |
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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On 30-Nov-07, at 22:17 , panhandler1956 wrote:
| Quote: | So when will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc,
etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna.
|
See: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html
A quote from that Boeing web page:
"China has an increasingly sophisticated and expanding part to play in
the commercial aviation industry and has a role on all of Boeing
commercial airplane models-737, 747, 767, 777 and the newest and most
innovative airplane, the 787 Dreamliner. China builds horizontal
stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels
and other parts on the 737; 747 trailing edge wing ribs; and 747-8
ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps. China also has an important role
on the new 787 Dreamliner airplane, building the rudder, wing-to-body
fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and
other composite parts."
Gulfstream purchases components from China:
http://www.stork-aerospace.com/eCache/DEF/10/729.html
"The Chinese aircraft manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (part
of AVIC-I) and Stork Aerospace have signed a contract for the
machining of components for the Gulfstream G450, the G500 and the
G550. "
Lear is owned by Bombardier (a Canadian company, with manufacturing
facilities on several continents), and Bombardier, like most of the
aviation industry, purchases components for several models from China
(but not yet any Learjet components, as near as I can tell).
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby)
Greely, ON
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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| Quote: | to get good citizens killed over a pack
of lies.
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You mean the spousings of Hilary, Murtha, Pelosi, Reid, and Michael Moore are getting people killed?
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Milt |
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen(at)dts9000.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
Hi, Bob, are them shades or blinders? 
Chuck Jensen
Do not archive
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Bob Collins
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
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Heh...heh... check back with me in 6.5 billion years.
I should be about ready for my first flight by then.
Do not archive
--
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_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/ |
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