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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
 |
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If you wait for the right time (filling time), the guy driving the
truck should know.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Dec 4, 2007, at 1:02 PM, James K Hovis wrote:
| Quote: |
>
You're right. I'm afraid delivering straight MOGAS (no ethanol) will
end up in the same boat, only a few suppliers willing to dedicate a
truck or two to deliver to the few airports who sell MOGAS (as
compared to the ethanol-gas delivered to the thousands of filling
stations). The price could end up the same as Avgas. But at least
premium gasoline in Missouri won't be required to have ethanol. You'll
probably have to ask to see if the premium in the tanks at the filling
station does or doesn't have ethanol. Think the $5 an hour clerk will
know???
Kevin H.
On 12/4/07, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com <GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/4/2007 9:30:02 AM Central Standard Time,
> james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com writes:
>
> Then again, if the fuel trucks are carrying blended fuel, won't that
> contaminate straight MOGAS destined for the local airports? Or are
> the
> fuel vendors going to have to use separate trucks to deliver MOGAS
> to
> airports same as they do now for Avgas? I don't think so. The supply
> of "clean" MOGAS at Missouri airports will dry up. My local airport
> has a pump and tank for 87 MOGAS.
>
> Kevin don't know how your gas is delivered but generally because the
> tankers
> are carrying leaded gas for 100LL they cannot use those tanks for
> any other
> product, thus it's my understanding that these tank wagons are
> dedicated
> tanks...that's another reason we pay extra for aviation fuel.
>
> P
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of
> 2007's hottest
> products.
> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001
> )
>
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
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|
Ethanol isn't like lead. If a tank truck took a load of gasahol, then a load of straight mogas, the contamination wouldn't be enough to worry about. Also, it doesn't matter where you are, your nearest bulk plant has mogas without any ethanol, because they can't put ethanol in the pipelines, it has to come by rail or tank truck. Whether they would sell you any, for your "yacht", I don't know.
That was what used to do in Alaska...just use somebody's boat registration number, go to bulk plant with a 100 gal tank in back of pickup, and fill it with straight mogas.
On 12/4/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com (james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "James K Hovis" <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com (james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com)>
You're right. I'm afraid delivering straight MOGAS (no ethanol) will
end up in the same boat, only a few suppliers willing to dedicate a
truck or two to deliver to the few airports who sell MOGAS (as
compared to the ethanol-gas delivered to the thousands of filling
stations). The price could end up the same as Avgas. But at least
premium gasoline in Missouri won't be required to have ethanol. You'll
probably have to ask to see if the premium in the tanks at the filling
station does or doesn't have ethanol. Think the $5 an hour clerk will
know???
Kevin H.
On 12/4/07, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com) <GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
In a message dated 12/4/2007 9:30:02 AM Central Standard Time,
james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com (james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com) writes:
Then again, if the fuel trucks are carrying blended fuel, won't that
contaminate straight MOGAS destined for the local airports? Or are the
fuel vendors going to have to use separate trucks to deliver MOGAS to
airports same as they do now for Avgas? I don't think so. The supply
of "clean" MOGAS at Missouri airports will dry up. My local airport
has a pump and tank for 87 MOGAS.
Kevin don't know how your gas is delivered but generally because the
tankers
are carrying leaded gas for 100LL they cannot use those tanks for any other
product, thus it's my understanding that these tank wagons are dedicated
tanks...that's another reason we pay extra for aviation fuel.
P
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
|
[b]
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semb
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
The GAMI PRISM ignition system supposedly lets a TIO-540 run with mogas
without problems - I don't know if it also works on blended mogas. The
key is the ignition system senses the cylinder pressure build up and
decay and adjusts the spark timing according to what is acutally
happening in the cylinder, not according to a pre-fixed table. The
beauty of this is it automatically adjusts to differences in fuel, or
other unmeasured variables like humidity that affect how quickly the
burn happens. Some modern cars do the same thing, without using the
pressure sensors that GAMI use (which are very expensive) - they use the
spark plug itself as a sensor, putting a voltage across the gap after
ignition and measuring the small current flow through the flame. It's
called ion-sensing. As far as I can tell no aircraft ignition systems
use ion-sensing yet - but this is a potential way to solve some of the
fuel problems cheaply. Of course this does nothing for vapor lock or ice
issues.
GAMI's PRISM (apparently not yet available, but being certified):
http://www.gami.com/prism.html
A paper on ion sensing in cars:
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html
Simon
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | Ethanol isn't like lead. If a tank truck took a load of gasahol, then
a load of straight mogas, the contamination wouldn't be enough to
worry about. Also, it doesn't matter where you are, your nearest bulk
plant has mogas without any ethanol, because they can't put ethanol in
the pipelines, it has to come by rail or tank truck. Whether they
would sell you any, for your "yacht", I don't know.
That was what used to do in Alaska...just use somebody's boat
registration number, go to bulk plant with a 100 gal tank in back of
pickup, and fill it with straight mogas.
On 12/4/07, *James K Hovis* <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com
<mailto:james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
<james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com <mailto:james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>>
You're right. I'm afraid delivering straight MOGAS (no ethanol) will
end up in the same boat, only a few suppliers willing to dedicate a
truck or two to deliver to the few airports who sell MOGAS (as
compared to the ethanol-gas delivered to the thousands of filling
stations). The price could end up the same as Avgas. But at least
premium gasoline in Missouri won't be required to have ethanol. You'll
probably have to ask to see if the premium in the tanks at the filling
station does or doesn't have ethanol. Think the $5 an hour clerk will
know???
Kevin H.
On 12/4/07, GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com <mailto:GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com>
<GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com <mailto:GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com>> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/4/2007 9:30:02 AM Central Standard Time,
> james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com <mailto:james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> writes:
>
> Then again, if the fuel trucks are carrying blended fuel, won't
that
> contaminate straight MOGAS destined for the local airports? Or
are the
> fuel vendors going to have to use separate trucks to deliver
MOGAS to
> airports same as they do now for Avgas? I don't think so. The
supply
> of "clean" MOGAS at Missouri airports will dry up. My local
airport
> has a pump and tank for 87 MOGAS.
>
>
>
> Kevin don't know how your gas is delivered but generally because the
> tankers
> are carrying leaded gas for 100LL they cannot use those tanks
for any other
> product, thus it's my understanding that these tank wagons are
dedicated
> tanks...that's another reason we pay extra for aviation fuel.
>
> P
>
>
>
> **************************************Check out AOL's list of
2007's hottest
*
*
|
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
The mandate is for All gasoline products sold by retailers, wholesalers within the boundaries of the State of Orygun and provides no exemption. Here attached is the latest from the Department of Agriculture meeting this week. They will administer the Greenies legislation which was submitted by the governor through the Department of Energy. All lawnmowers, recreational toys, landscape implements, chain saws, boats, airplanes and all other such “Spark Ignited” internal combustion engines are lumped into the convoluted definition of motor vehicles requiring the Greenie Fuel. My partner in the Oregon Pilots Association – Dave Martin corrects me that neither of us have been contacted by EAA nor are we representing their interests on this important legislation. We are representing the Oregon Pilots and boy I hope you all enjoy flying through Orygun starting in a month.
Now if only Dave Hertner can get his Brayton Cycle Alternate RV-10 powerplant operational we can get Michael Sausen involved again. (Just kidding Michael).
Follow Montana’s lead and get a pre-emptive bill on the books before the Greenies push us into the Ice Age.
John
RV-10 #40600
VP Legislative Affairs and other types too for Oregon Pilots Association
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
John, I saw on another list that the OR ethanol mandate was ONLY for Mogas, not Avgas. Of course that still leaves all the STC'd folks and LSA folks in trouble, as well as the marine folks. I'll have to ask what folks around my home drome do, since we have 10% for all the winter months, mandatory, but optional in the summer.
On 12/3/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I doubt that ethanol will be mandated nationwide, simply because there isn't a viable production capacity at least until they solve cellulosic ethanol, as there isn't enough corn and much of the environmental community recognizes that corn derived ethanol at any higher than production levels is an environmental disaster. Not to mention that it does very little to increase overall fuel supplies.
Hmm, can we spell serious problems for LSA if Rotax really has a problem with Avgas?
Where is the boating community on this? Can't imagine it causing anything but trouble for fuel tanks and engines next to water.
On 12/3/07, John W. Cox < johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Let's take it the next step Kelly to mandate MOGAS has 10% + Ethanol in all 50 states. Now all of those Peterson and EAA STCed aircraft refueling in Orygun will pass Ethanol through the lines, seals and over the gaskets. Rotax requires not more than 50% Avgas to be added to Mogas or extensive additional repair work is required.
Dave Martin (EAA 78011) representing the EAA will make the plea tomorrow before this panel of idiots. These are politicians I have not voted for, do not endorse and know little of the consequence of their action to revenue collection reductions, negative mpact to tourism and economic develop and aviation safety. We will soon be the Western Appalachia of the US of A. There is a distinct possibility that one of the politicians is the son of the acting Director of Aviation.
The Greenies are everywhere. Be vigilant out there. It is soon to be an election year.
John (EAA 565497)
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
Oh and Kelly, the bill’s intent was to force immediate production (40 million Gallons) and provide immediate tax incentives to begin the product from Oregon grain and other such Oregon Green waste. They wanted a quiet adoption without public dissent.
The Oregon fishing community that has not already gone diesel, is sunk (If you will excuse the pun). Oh Yeh, the bill mandates biomass for diesel too. The City of Portland mandated biofuel for their fleet of Freightliner Sprinter trucks which required them to drive to Washington to refuel. Seems the engine manufacturer would invalidate the warrantee. We got that one modified. They are also trying to block the wind turbine construction to protect the birds out here.
Along with building an ARK, I am getting a REALLY, REALLY BIG compost pile ready for the second coming next to my shop. And my neighbors thought that riveting was unusual. For those of you that are sick puppies and want to see what is coming your way (Michigan), I have attached this monstrosity. Anyone for a Flux Capacitor?
This is for all gasoline products. Jet A may be safe for a year or two.
John
Please Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
John, I saw on another list that the OR ethanol mandate was ONLY for Mogas, not Avgas. Of course that still leaves all the STC'd folks and LSA folks in trouble, as well as the marine folks. I'll have to ask what folks around my home drome do, since we have 10% for all the winter months, mandatory, but optional in the summer.
On 12/3/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I doubt that ethanol will be mandated nationwide, simply because there isn't a viable production capacity at least until they solve cellulosic ethanol, as there isn't enough corn and much of the environmental community recognizes that corn derived ethanol at any higher than production levels is an environmental disaster. Not to mention that it does very little to increase overall fuel supplies.
Hmm, can we spell serious problems for LSA if Rotax really has a problem with Avgas?
Where is the boating community on this? Can't imagine it causing anything but trouble for fuel tanks and engines next to water.
On 12/3/07, John W. Cox < johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Let's take it the next step Kelly to mandate MOGAS has 10% + Ethanol in all 50 states. Now all of those Peterson and EAA STCed aircraft refueling in Orygun will pass Ethanol through the lines, seals and over the gaskets. Rotax requires not more than 50% Avgas to be added to Mogas or extensive additional repair work is required.
Dave Martin (EAA 78011) representing the EAA will make the plea tomorrow before this panel of idiots. These are politicians I have not voted for, do not endorse and know little of the consequence of their action to revenue collection reductions, negative mpact to tourism and economic develop and aviation safety. We will soon be the Western Appalachia of the US of A. There is a distinct possibility that one of the politicians is the son of the acting Director of Aviation.
The Greenies are everywhere. Be vigilant out there. It is soon to be an election year.
John (EAA 565497)
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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| Description: |
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Download |
| Filename: |
hb2210.b.pdf |
| Filesize: |
125.53 KB |
| Downloaded: |
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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
Hi John,
I'm not reading this the way you are (though I've not read it cover to cover). Can you direct me to the specific section that prohibits Av Gas from being sold?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Dec 7, 2007, at 4:43 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
[quote]
Oh and Kelly, the bill’s intent was to force immediate production (40 million Gallons) and provide immediate tax incentives to begin the product from Oregon grain and other such Oregon Green waste. They wanted a quiet adoption without public dissent.
The Oregon fishing community that has not already gone diesel, is sunk (If you will excuse the pun). Oh Yeh, the bill mandates biomass for diesel too. The City of Portland mandated biofuel for their fleet of Freightliner Sprinter trucks which required them to drive to Washington to refuel. Seems the engine manufacturer would invalidate the warrantee. We got that one modified. They are also trying to block the wind turbine construction to protect the birds out here.
Along with building an ARK, I am getting a REALLY, REALLY BIG compost pile ready for the second coming next to my shop. And my neighbors thought that riveting was unusual. For those of you that are sick puppies and want to see what is coming your way (Michigan), I have attached this monstrosity. Anyone for a Flux Capacitor?
This is for all gasoline products. Jet A may be safe for a year or two.
John
Please Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
John, I saw on another list that the OR ethanol mandate was ONLY for Mogas, not Avgas. Of course that still leaves all the STC'd folks and LSA folks in trouble, as well as the marine folks. I'll have to ask what folks around my home drome do, since we have 10% for all the winter months, mandatory, but optional in the summer.
On 12/3/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I doubt that ethanol will be mandated nationwide, simply because there isn't a viable production capacity at least until they solve cellulosic ethanol, as there isn't enough corn and much of the environmental community recognizes that corn derived ethanol at any higher than production levels is an environmental disaster. Not to mention that it does very little to increase overall fuel supplies.
Hmm, can we spell serious problems for LSA if Rotax really has a problem with Avgas?
Where is the boating community on this? Can't imagine it causing anything but trouble for fuel tanks and engines next to water.
On 12/3/07, John W. Cox < johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Let's take it the next step Kelly to mandate MOGAS has 10% + Ethanol in all 50 states. Now all of those Peterson and EAA STCed aircraft refueling in Orygun will pass Ethanol through the lines, seals and over the gaskets. Rotax requires not more than 50% Avgas to be added to Mogas or extensive additional repair work is required.
Dave Martin (EAA 78011) representing the EAA will make the plea tomorrow before this panel of idiots. These are politicians I have not voted for, do not endorse and know little of the consequence of their action to revenue collection reductions, negative mpact to tourism and economic develop and aviation safety. We will soon be the Western Appalachia of the US of A. There is a distinct possibility that one of the politicians is the son of the acting Director of Aviation.
The Greenies are everywhere. Be vigilant out there. It is soon to be an election year.
John (EAA 565497)
0123456789012345678901
<hb2210.b.pdf>[b]
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
Wow, you need to get HBO or Showtime on a Friday night.
Page 7 lines 12 and 13 – Definition of Gasoline.
Page 7 lines 16 and 17 – ALL spark ignited internal combustion motors operating in Orygun. This includes all aerocraft engines using spark ignition.
Page 9 line 37 and 38 – Gasoline must contain 10 percent ethanol by volume. Good bye EAA and Peterson STCs for MOGAS use in Orygun.
The legislature adjourned and the Governor signed the bill on September 27th, 2007. The effective date is January 28th, 2008. The mandate hits on July 15th, 2008. The next Department of Agriculture meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, December 12 at 9AM located at 635 Capitol Street, Salem, OR. I will forward more then for your next Friday Night at the Movies. By ordinance AVGAS as we know it is gasoline for Department of Agriculture interpretation. We are hoping to create an exemption whereby FBOs could invest in a non Ethanol tank system in addition to the mandatory ethanol laden Greenie concoction. The EAA is not represented in these discussions.
Back to shoveling my compost pile to speed the process. And to think I used to be looking for a pony in all this stuff.
John
Do not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Carpenter
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 5:51 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
Hi John,
I'm not reading this the way you are (though I've not read it cover to cover). Can you direct me to the specific section that prohibits Av Gas from being sold?
Jeff Carpenter
40304
On Dec 7, 2007, at 4:43 PM, John W. Cox wrote:
Oh and Kelly, the bill’s intent was to force immediate production (40 million Gallons) and provide immediate tax incentives to begin the product from Oregon grain and other such Oregon Green waste. They wanted a quiet adoption without public dissent.
The Oregon fishing community that has not already gone diesel, is sunk (If you will excuse the pun). Oh Yeh, the bill mandates biomass for diesel too. The City of Portland mandated biofuel for their fleet of Freightliner Sprinter trucks which required them to drive to Washington to refuel. Seems the engine manufacturer would invalidate the warrantee. We got that one modified. They are also trying to block the wind turbine construction to protect the birds out here.
Along with building an ARK, I am getting a REALLY, REALLY BIG compost pile ready for the second coming next to my shop. And my neighbors thought that riveting was unusual. For those of you that are sick puppies and want to see what is coming your way (Michigan), I have attached this monstrosity. Anyone for a Flux Capacitor?
This is for all gasoline products. Jet A may be safe for a year or two.
John
Please Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
John, I saw on another list that the OR ethanol mandate was ONLY for Mogas, not Avgas. Of course that still leaves all the STC'd folks and LSA folks in trouble, as well as the marine folks. I'll have to ask what folks around my home drome do, since we have 10% for all the winter months, mandatory, but optional in the summer.
On 12/3/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I doubt that ethanol will be mandated nationwide, simply because there isn't a viable production capacity at least until they solve cellulosic ethanol, as there isn't enough corn and much of the environmental community recognizes that corn derived ethanol at any higher than production levels is an environmental disaster. Not to mention that it does very little to increase overall fuel supplies.
Hmm, can we spell serious problems for LSA if Rotax really has a problem with Avgas?
Where is the boating community on this? Can't imagine it causing anything but trouble for fuel tanks and engines next to water.
On 12/3/07, John W. Cox < johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Let's take it the next step Kelly to mandate MOGAS has 10% + Ethanol in all 50 states. Now all of those Peterson and EAA STCed aircraft refueling in Orygun will pass Ethanol through the lines, seals and over the gaskets. Rotax requires not more than 50% Avgas to be added to Mogas or extensive additional repair work is required.
Dave Martin (EAA 78011) representing the EAA will make the plea tomorrow before this panel of idiots. These are politicians I have not voted for, do not endorse and know little of the consequence of their action to revenue collection reductions, negative mpact to tourism and economic develop and aviation safety. We will soon be the Western Appalachia of the US of A. There is a distinct possibility that one of the politicians is the son of the acting Director of Aviation.
The Greenies are everywhere. Be vigilant out there. It is soon to be an election year.
John (EAA 565497)
[quote][b]
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effectus(at)rogers.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
|
|
John,
The engine is going to be developed by another Canadian company with very deep pockets. I , unfortunately did not end up with the rites to the technology for that application but that is OK as long as someone is doing it. This is a very good development indeed.
Dave
do not archive
John W. Cox wrote: [quote]
The mandate is for All gasoline products sold by retailers, wholesalers within the boundaries of the State of Orygun and provides no exemption. Here attached is the latest from the Department of Agriculture meeting this week. They will administer the Greenies legislation which was submitted by the governor through the Department of Energy. All lawnmowers, recreational toys, landscape implements, chain saws, boats, airplanes and all other such “Spark Ignited” internal combustion engines are lumped into the convoluted definition of motor vehicles requiring the Greenie Fuel. My partner in the Oregon Pilots Association – Dave Martin corrects me that neither of us have been contacted by EAA nor are we representing their interests on this important legislation. We are representing the Oregon Pilots and boy I hope you all enjoy flying through Orygun starting in a month.
Now if only Dave Hertner can get his Brayton Cycle Alternate RV-10 powerplant operational we can get Michael Sausen involved again. (Just kidding Michael).
Follow Montana’s lead and get a pre-emptive bill on the books before the Greenies push us into the Ice Age.
John
RV-10 #40600
VP Legislative Affairs and other types too for Oregon Pilots Association
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:34 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine)
John, I saw on another list that the OR ethanol mandate was ONLY for Mogas, not Avgas. Of course that still leaves all the STC'd folks and LSA folks in trouble, as well as the marine folks. I'll have to ask what folks around my home drome do, since we have 10% for all the winter months, mandatory, but optional in the summer.
On 12/3/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Well, I doubt that ethanol will be mandated nationwide, simply because there isn't a viable production capacity at least until they solve cellulosic ethanol, as there isn't enough corn and much of the environmental community recognizes that corn derived ethanol at any higher than production levels is an environmental disaster. Not to mention that it does very little to increase overall fuel supplies.
Hmm, can we spell serious problems for LSA if Rotax really has a problem with Avgas?
Where is the boating community on this? Can't imagine it causing anything but trouble for fuel tanks and engines next to water.
On 12/3/07, John W. Cox < johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
Let's take it the next step Kelly to mandate MOGAS has 10% + Ethanol in all 50 states. Now all of those Peterson and EAA STCed aircraft refueling in Orygun will pass Ethanol through the lines, seals and over the gaskets. Rotax requires not more than 50% Avgas to be added to Mogas or extensive additional repair work is required.
Dave Martin (EAA 78011) representing the EAA will make the plea tomorrow before this panel of idiots. These are politicians I have not voted for, do not endorse and know little of the consequence of their action to revenue collection reductions, negative mpact to tourism and economic develop and aviation safety. We will soon be the Western Appalachia of the US of A. There is a distinct possibility that one of the politicians is the son of the acting Director of Aviation.
The Greenies are everywhere. Be vigilant out there. It is soon to be an election year.
John (EAA 565497)
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
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I'd be curious as to how the Dept of Ag would respond to the FAA
advising them that they would be violating Federal law if they tamper
with on spec Avgas.
Avgas has to meet ASTM spec, which is impossible with ethanol in it. Is
the State willing to accept liability for the first aircraft that
crashes from ethanol contaminated avgas? Mogas is a different story, as
the FAA has already prohibited using mogas with ethanol in aircraft.
Yes, it hurts those that desire or feel they need mogas in their aircraft.
Has AOPA or anyone engaged the FAA in this matter? Would seem pretty
simple for the FAA to issue an edict or get a Fed Court injunction to
preclude the state from messing with Avgas.
John W. Cox wrote:
| Quote: |
Wow, you need to get HBO or Showtime on a Friday night.
Page 7 lines 12 and 13 – Definition of Gasoline.
Page 7 lines 16 and 17 – ALL spark ignited internal combustion motors
operating in Orygun. This includes all aerocraft engines using spark
ignition.
Page 9 line 37 and 38 – Gasoline must contain 10 percent ethanol by
volume. Good bye EAA and Peterson STCs for MOGAS use in Orygun.
The legislature adjourned and the Governor signed the bill on
September 27^th , 2007. The effective date is January 28^th , 2008.
The mandate hits on July 15^th , 2008. The next Department of
Agriculture meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, December 12 at 9AM
located at 635 Capitol Street, Salem, OR. I will forward more then for
your next Friday Night at the Movies. By ordinance AVGAS as we know it
is gasoline for Department of Agriculture interpretation. We are
hoping to create an exemption whereby FBOs could invest in a non
Ethanol tank system in addition to the mandatory ethanol laden Greenie
concoction. The EAA is not represented in these discussions.
Back to shoveling my compost pile to speed the process. And to think I
used to be looking for a pony in all this stuff.
John
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Engine Choices (Taxi Testing New Engine) |
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I'll report back on Wednesday's next meeting. The AG said it is too
late to address it in the Emergency Session scheduled for February. We
can feel the rumble coming down the tracks. It may be a State Rights
vs. Fed thing. I simple don't know enough to conclude squat.
And the compost pile needs to be turned regularly or it will ignite
spontaneously before I get any ethanol produced.
John
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