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Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger
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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

I have flown 3 different Challenger II's and I have flown 4 different models of Kolb's and its just my opinion The KOLB's are superior better flyers and you dont have to worry about the wings or the fusalage flexing like in the Challengers ( I dont like that ) thats why I am sticking to Kolb's

  

    Ellery Building MK3Xtra

  

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The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Hi Prop,



Just another note...



The FS II really is a single seat plane in my opinion. The Seat in the back 

is very small, no controls and really only suited for a child or small 

person.



The Challenger II has room for two normal size adults and dual controls but, 

very little extra space beyond that.



The Challenger II has a higher VNE of 100mph and the FS II is 90mph.



I guess its all in what you want to do.



Carlos G

---

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Hi Propwash,



I have a Firestar II with a 447  and  I have about 50hrs in a QC Challenger 

II LW with a 503.



The Challenger has flaperons  and the FSII does not have flaps. The FS II 

seems to be a little qiucker on the response to control inputs but not 

sensitive. The rudder feel is the biggest difference between the two planes. 

The Challenger seems a little vague at times usually right after reducing 

power. The FS II seems very positive through out all speeds  when compared 

to a Challenger. I find the FS tracks better through turns while the 

Challenger seems to need constant attention when making coordinated turns. 

The FS II is a tail dragger and may take alittle getting used to when 

compared to a Challenger.



You mgiht try practicing keeping the Challenger balanced only on its main 

gear along the runway  while doing touch and go's. Or practice high speed 

taxis down the runway keeping Challenger balanced again on its mains only. 

This will help you practice steering with the rudder and give you an idea 

what a tail wheel is about. If you can, please do find someone who can give 

you some time in a taildragger as this is the best way to prepare.



I hope this helps with your questions regarding the two planes.



Best Regards

Carlos G



---

indyaviator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

I own an fly a Firestar, but I learned to fly in a Challenger II Clip wing.  There are pros and cons to both planes as I see them.



1. First off, the Chalenger II is a true two place plane, the Firestar is not.

2. The Chalenger is has a faster cruise speed. 

3.  The Kolb is structurally more substantial in my opinion.  Take a look at the tail section design of the Challenger.  If you grab the vertical stabilizer and give a good shake, and you'll see what I mean.

4.  The Kolb will handle a rough field a lot better.  Challengers have a weak nose gear design. 

5.  Challengers are known for adverse yaw, however this can be delt with.

6.  I am not a fan of belt driven props (Challenger)

7.  I am not a fan of inverted 2 strokes ( Challenger)

8.  I feel safer in chromoly fuselage (Kolb) 

9.  The visibility of a kolb cannot be beat without a Bell helicopter.

10.  Folding wings are a nice feature (Kolb)

11.  Some Challenger pilots have reported bad flight characteristics when the doors are installed. 

12.  Tail draggers are cool.



Bryan Dever

  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Does anyone have any experience with the Quad City Challenger (2 seat 

 model) and the Kolb Firestar II - in terms of similiar flight 

 characteristics. I have a half a dozen hours in the Challenger (long wing 

 model) and am considering purchasing a FS II.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	


I took my Sport Pilot test in a Challenger, and I own a Firestar II. I would 

not trade at all. The only thing positive that I can say about the 

Challenger is that it is relatively easy to land. Other than that no real 

comparison for me, they are just not as much fun to fly.

Larry C

Do not archive

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Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

And please, propwash, use the widest runway you can find! You might need it in training.

On Dec 6, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Carlos wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Carlos" <grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net)>

Hi Propwash,

I have a Firestar II with a 447  and  I have about 50hrs in a QC Challenger II LW with a 503.

The Challenger has flaperons  and the FSII does not have flaps. The FS II seems to be a little qiucker on the response to control inputs but not sensitive. The rudder feel is the biggest difference between the two planes. The Challenger seems a little vague at times usually right after reducing power. The FS II seems very positive through out all speeds  when compared to a Challenger. I find the FS tracks better through turns while the Challenger seems to need constant attention when making coordinated turns. The FS II is a tail dragger and may take alittle getting used to when compared to a Challenger.

You mgiht try practicing keeping the Challenger balanced only on its main gear along the runway  while doing touch and go's. Or practice high speed taxis down the runway keeping Challenger balanced again on its mains only. This will help you practice steering with the rudder and give you an idea what a tail wheel is about. If you can, please do find someone who can give you some time in a taildragger as this is the best way to prepare.

I hope this helps with your questions regarding the two planes.

Best Regards

Carlos G

---

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Took a "BFR" in a Challenger II a short while ago....   My distinct 

impression was that the rudder was only loosely affiliated with the 

remainder of the airplane... and that the relationship was somewhat 

antagonistic...



Stick with the Kolbs...



Worth what ye paid fer it...

beauford

FF076

Brandon FL

Do not archive...

---

propwash

Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 3
Location: San Jose, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challe

One of the posters mentioned that I should practice on a wide runnway? Is there any reason for that? Do you need a wider runway than normal with a Kolb? I have heard that when the plane gets up on both mains it has a desire to swerve to the right.

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

In a message dated 12/6/2007 8:17:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  indyaviator(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  12.  Tail draggers are cool.

	


 

 Bryn,

  

 Very good report.   

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

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WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

In a message dated 12/6/2007 10:39:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  lasvegas890(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Do you    need a wider runway than normal with a Kolb? 	


 

 Hi there Propwash,

  

 Don't let the tail dragger handling comments scare you.  Homer  designed the Kolbs with the main gear located further aft, than say, a Piper  Cub, so it doesn't act the same way.  The Kolb handles very gently on the  ground.  I learned to fly my Kolb FireStar by following the instructions in  the builders manual.  First, I taxied a lot to get the feel of the rudder  and tail wheel action.  Time spent taxiing also helps to get familiar  with the throttle positioning needed to make the plane move, and the seating  position in reference to the ground.  Then I started doing crow hops.   Just add enough throttle to get it moving and when it comes off the ground, just  slightly reduce the throttle and the plane will settle right down onto the  ground again.  Always treat the throttle gently.  You will find  that the Kolbs are light on the tail, so you have to have the stick back  whenever you add much throttle, lest the prop thrust will push the plane over  onto its nose.  Won't hurt the plane much if you do; just your pride    Do your practicing on a calm day and after you get proficient at crow  hops, it's time to go around the pattern.  On landing, carry some  power (3000~3500 RPM) and keep the airspeed up.  When you reach ground  level you'll be in the same position as you were when you did the crow hops, so  land it the same way as you did then.  One other thing, if you are using  the original design tail wheel, you will find that the Kolb will not turn  very sharp.  In order to make a U-turn on the runway, you have to get all  the way over to the edge of the runway before starting your turn.  This is  the only time that you will need that WIDER runway.  Worked for me.   

 Bill  Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not  Archive





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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

I wondered about that too??? He must have been referring to a Challenger.



If the builder didn't get the wheels aligned you might get one that swerves 

but this isn't normal. OK, yes if you grab a bunch of throttle at low speeds 

depending on the prop rotation it will turn on way or the other but it is 

after all a airplane. I also heard the strong advise to get tail wheel 

training. Yes Kolbs are tail wheel airplanes but they are the easiest tail 

wheel airplanes there are to fly. By all means get training but Kolbs steer 

more like a nose dragger.



Its a real good idea to leave a bit of the E-Mail that you are responding to 

so we know what you are responding too.



Again worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

A wide runway will give some room  to swerve, or get off track, no  

matter what the airplane.  Just gives you more room, and more time,   

to get things back in  order.

Far as I can see, Kolbs are as good as, or better than the others.  

Many planes tend tp swerve a little when they get light on the wheels  

-- that's what the rudder is used for, to correct the swings.

On Dec 6, 2007, at 10:38 PM, propwash wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 One of the posters mentioned that I should practice on a wide  

 runnway? Is there any reason for that? Do you need a wider runway  

 than normal with a Kolb? I have heard that when the plane gets up  

 on both mains it has a desire to swerve to the right.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150929#150929

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challe

If you are new to tail wheel planes, landing a Kolb on grass is much easier than on pavement.   With grass, if you get a little yaw on landing, the tires slide a bit and it is much more forgiving.   If you get a bit sideways on pavement, the wheels grip like crazy and there is a much greater chance of a ground loop.



A tailwheel plane is harder to land, no doubt about it.  I also feel more limited in crosswinds than I do in a tricycle gear plane.  That being said, the Kolb is a very nice and well designed plane, and its worth the effort to learn to fly a taildragger.   Given the structural issues I have read about with Challengers, I would never even fly in one if someone offered me a ride.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Given the structural issues I have read about with Challengers, I would 

never even fly in one if someone offered me a ride.>>



Hi ,

I would love to hear about them. I have flown a Challenger for years, built 

it myself and it always struck me as very strongly engineered. I certainly 

had nothing break and I banged her down pretty hard once or twice.

CVheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Then I started doing crow hops.  >>

  

 Hi Propwash,

  

 DONT DO IT WHISKY VICTORS WAY>.  It worked  for him but I reckon he is one lucky Joe.  Taxi by all means, get used to  the throttle position, even taxy fast enough to get the tail up.

  

 BUT!  At that stage GO FOR IT. The last thing  you need is messing about with the ground close at just over flying speed. It is  a recipe for disaster. You get a puff of wind and suddenly you are a bit higher  than you intended and the end of the runway or a hedge is coming up and you  close the throttle a bit quick.....Kapoww.

  

 Get 1000ft under you and you have time to sort  things out.

  

 Pat

  

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

My distinct

impression was that the rudder was only loosely affiliated with the

remainder of the airplane... and that the relationship was somewhat

antagonistic...

Hiya Beauford.



You have a way with words. That was great. I would disagree but I still 

laughed.

Certainly the Challenger needs a bootful of rudder to lead into a turn, in 

fact she won`t go round without it, but once you appreciate that fact..she`s 

OK



Cheers



Pat

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Brother Ladd...

I respect your more favorable impression of the Challenger's 

characteristics, based as it is upon much more time in the machine than I 

have... However, sir...  I would ask you if your Challenger time is in the 

UK approved variant...?  According to the NTSB documentation I have read, in 

1994, the Popular Flying Association in the UK felt compelled to ban further 

importation and sales of the Challenger until it was redesigned for the UK 

with a 25% larger vertical tail and dorsal fin to remedy directional 

stability deficiencies which prevented it from meeting UK certification 

requirements.  This inherent yaw instability was apparently further worsened 

when the optional cabin side doors were fitted on the airplane, at which 

point its yaw characteristics could become uncontrollable. If you haven't 

seen it and you are interested in what the NTSB wrote to the Challenger 

factory on the issue, see www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1996/A96_43_44.pdf



Your comment about needing a "bootful" was true enough...but that wasn't the 

troubling part... I have flown planes that required healthy amounts of 

rudder...  With this ship, further increasing (gently, I thought) the rudder 

input to the point which finally began to move the yaw string resulted in a 

delayed perception that ever increasing amounts of rudder were continuing to 

be fed in... despite my conscious attempt to add no more rudder than that 

needed to begin the yaw correction process... It gave me the impression of 

having divergent yaw stability...and I found it uncomfortable.



Now, Patrick,  I am the first to admit that for all intents and purposes, I 

am dead from the waist down... (I have been married 43 years)...and 

kinesthetic inputs to my butt by airplanes are probably not as readily 

recognized as they once were, but I had more trouble reading what this 

little airplane was telling me through the rudder than any other machine I 

can recall... I walked away from it disgusted with myself that I had not 

done a better job of it, despite the check ride instructor's thumbs-up...



Most of all, it made me appreciate the Kolb for its lack of significant 

vices... generally speaking, what one inputs is what one gets... and as long 

as it has flying speed and is not wrapped up in an accelerated state, I am 

convinced it will offer few surprises...even to a geezer like me...



Worth what ye paid fer it.

Do Not Archive



beauford

FF-076

Brandon, FL


Hiya Beauford.



. I would disagree cerrtainly the Challenger needs a bootful of rudder to 

lead into a turn, in

fact she won`t go round without it, but once you appreciate that fact..she`s

OK



Cheers



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:31 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

> Brother Ladd...

 	  Quote: 	
		   I respect your more favorable impression of the Challenger's

 characteristics, based as it is upon much more time in the machine than I

 have...  > beauford


	




Beauford:



Thanks for your input on this thread.



I have never flown a Challenger, so I can not comment on how one flies, what 

to do, and/or what not to do when flying one.



About the only thing I know about a Challenger is how to recognize a 

Challenger pilot that has recently had a hard landing on the pointed end of 

the airplane.  Usually, they will be wearing a cast from the tips of their 

toes to their waist.  This is the result of wiping off the nose and nose 

gear, leaving the pilots feet and legs to accomplish the remainder of the 

crashing.  I understand it is not too difficult to accomplish the wiping off 

part since the nose gear is attached to an aluminum cross tube with two hose 

clamps.



I must add, I am quite impressed with some of the comments the Kolb List has 

been receiving on this thread.  It always amazes me for folks with little or 

no experience flying a Kolb to attempt to teach a new Kolb pilot how to fly 

one for the first time over the internet.  Glad I did not have access to the 

computer back in 1984, when I completed my Ultrastar and flew it.  I may 

have used some of this unique computer based flying advice.



Folks on the receiving end of some of this advice would probably be 

surprised to know some of their advisors have zero to very little actual 

pilot in command time in a Kolb aircraft.



Despite the cold temps and lumpy air, I climbed aboard my mkIII and 

committed aviation for the first time since my return flight from the Kolb 

Flyin the end of Sep.  All I can say it, it sure felt good to be in the air 

in a real airplane once again.



Take care,



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

UK approved variant...? >>



Hi ,

You are quite right. the wing loading did not meet the spec. of an ultrlight 

at that time. A new wing length was introduced a little shorter than your 

long wing version.

A dorsal extension to the tailplane was added after I had flown mine for 

some time. I really couldn`t detect much difference.



I never flew the Challenger with doors. I opted for the open cockpit version

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The Challenger

Subject: Re: Flight characteristics of the Kolb FSII & The

Challenger

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My distinct

 impression was that the rudder was only loosely affiliated with the

 remainder of the airplane... and that the relationship was somewhat

 antagonistic...



 Hiya Beauford.



 You have a way with words. That was great. I would disagree but I still

 laughed.


	




Hi Pat,

    Beauford almost always makes me laugh, but I thought the description was

pretty accurate. The one that I took my check ride in had a disturbing

tendency to try its best to be a canard type plane and the only way once it

progressed so far to get it back in line was cross control the critter. (The

instructor had told me not to chase the rudder. Apparently that is a common

occurrence.) Once I flew it enough to get the hang of it every thing of

course was ok, but it wasn't what I would call fun, or make me want to do it

a lot.

Larry C



do not archive   or have we given up on that. I seem to see it very rarely

anymore?

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