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eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: kitfox heater

I am in need of 1  heater that was for the kitfox  for the 582 . I f anyone has one and wants to part with it  give me a call at 580-695-8778 or email at eskflyer(at)yahoo.com 



Thanks

_________________
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John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

I have two planes to make heaters for in the next week. 

Both will be exhaust heater with a heat muff. If you want pics , let me know.  One is a 532 and the other is a 503. Actually make that 3 planes as I have a tuned pipe on my 582 now and my old heater won't work unless I  change back to stock rotax pipe.  I will try one for mine too. 



Also you can put a scoop or oil bottle on back of rad to get some heat from radiator but it will not be enough once temps fall below 20.

And a bonus is if you want carb heat  and you are using hot air from exhaust heat muff this is a great time to make it .   I only see Bings icing on 582 usually in the  30 to 35F temp range. I get it several times every year.  503 get it even less as it does not have a rotary valve and allows some air/fuel mix to pulse back out of the carb and seems to keep it warmer.

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akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

Hey Dave will you post up a few pics of the heat muff?  I am getting ready to make one for my avid and dont feel the need to re-invent the wheel if you have come up with something that works well.



Thanks

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

I flight tested my Cabin Heater today.  It didn't hardly put out any heat at all.  It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax.  Size of the muff is 9" X 10".  There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff.  2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder pedals.  Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better or should I return to the drawing board?  Pictures attached.

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_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: kitfox heater

Tom sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I flight tested my Cabin Heater today.  It didn't hardly put out any 

heat at all.


	


How would you described the air flow through your tubing, Tom?  Was 

it blowing like a tornado or was it more like a gentle breeze? 

Assuming that your muffler got nice and hot, my first suspicion is 

that the air is spending too little time in contact with the heat 

source.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: kitfox heater

I'm the furthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still  

working on mine...but from what I've seen and learned, you should  

have a larger outlet than an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would  

be possible to put some baffles inside the muff so that the air has  

to make some turns, like a labyrinth, which will make the air slow  

and thereby picking up heat. If you look at your setup, the air can  

flow from inlet to outlet passing through only 3 pot scrubbers. You  

could install two divider baffles which would force the air to pass  

through 3 scrubbers, make a 180° turn, go through 3 more scrubbers,  

make another 180° turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbers, then  

through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and therefore  

expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the  

mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed  

out to me.



I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exhaust  

pipes (~1400° F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a  

matter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough  

flow to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best  

source, but I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger  

area, would be a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make  

your muff larger, like build it so it wraps completely around the  

muffler, or do you have cowl clearance problems?



Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : )

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs



On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I flight tested my Cabin Heater today.  It didn't hardly put out  

 any heat at all.  It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax.  Size of  

 the muff is 9" X 10".  There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff.   

 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder  

 pedals.  Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better  

 or should I return to the drawing board?  Pictures attached.



 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV, Phase one

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: kitfox heater

I was flying my Avid today on skis in northern Mn,  High temp today was +4 F.  Inside the plane it was about 40.  I have the Jabiru engine and made a box/heatmuff that fit around the muffler.  The box has baffles inside it so the air comes in the bottom center, goes to the ends of the box, then the next baffle forces the air to go to the center of the box, there it goes up to the top level of the box and goes to the ends of the box where I have the outlets that go to the firewall openings.  I have a 120 MM 12 volt computer fan that blows into the bottom of the heat muff, but just the air pressure in the cowl will move the air through the heat muff.   I had to take the oil cooler off to get my oil temps up, and I was picking up the warmed air off the cooler.  With that setup, it would almost cook you out of the plane with the fan on.   If anyone want to see a pic or two, I could send it to them, but I don't know how to post a pic to the list.  Jim Chuk  Avid MK IV

[quote] From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Re: kitfox heater

 Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:16:40 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 I'm the furthest from real knowledgeable on heaters...I'm still 

 working on mine...but from what I've seen and learned, you should 

 have a larger outlet than an inlet. Also, with your setup, it would 

 be possible to put some baffles inside the muff so that the air has 

 to make some turns, like a labyrinth, which will make the air slow 

 and thereby picking up heat. If you look at your setup, the air can 

 flow from inlet to outlet passing through only 3 pot scrubbers. You 

 could install two divider baffles which would force the air to pass 

 through 3 scrubbers, make a 180° turn, go through 3 more scrubbers, 

 make another 180° turn, and go through the final 3 scrubbers, then 

 through the outlet. By this time the air will be heated and therefore 

 expanded, hence the need for making the outlet larger. I made the 

 mistake of making my ins and outs the same size, and this was pointed 

 out to me.

 I made two small 3" x ~6" muffs that wrap around my Jabiru exhaust 

 pipes (~1400° F) and I still don't have sufficient heat. It's a 

 matter of slowing down the air to allow for heat transfer, yet enough 

 flow to do some good. I figured my exhaust pipes would be the best 

 source, but I'm starting to think that the muffler, with it's larger 

 area, would be a better, even if cooler, source of heat. Can you make 

 your muff larger, like build it so it wraps completely around the 

 muffler, or do you have cowl clearance problems?

 Lynn Matteson (flying cool in Michigan) : )

 Grass Lake, Michigan

 Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200

 flying w/440+ hrs

 On Dec 8, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Tom Jones wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>

 >

 > I flight tested my Cabin Heater today. It didn't hardly put out 

 > any heat at all. It is an exhaust muff on a 503 Rotax. Size of 

 > the muff is 9" X 10". There are nine pot scrubbers in the muff. 

 > 2" scat duct ram air and same size ducting to between the rudder 

 > pedals. Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better 

 > or should I return to the drawing board? Pictures attached.

 >

 > --------

 > Tom Jones

 > Classic IV, Phase one

 > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 > Ellensburg, WA

 >

 >

 >

 <====

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: kitfox heater

At 05:16 PM 12/8/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Any suggestions to try on this one to make it work better or should 

I return to the drawing board?  Pictures attached.


	


Thoughts:



1. Though the inside (muffler skin) is hot, the outside is not, so 

you'll only get air 1/2 as hot as you expect. Note that there's more 

"cold" skin area than "hot" skin area since the cold has a larger diameter.



2. The "most direct" path from intake to exit requires very little 

contact, "percentage wise" with the hot surface.



3. Virtually any air exchange at the edges will "cool" the muff.



Suggestions:



1. Coat the inside of the muff with the stick-on fiberglass/ foil 

insulation. (ACS - "Heat Barrier - Adhesive Backed" PN 08-00630.) The 

stuff's about 3/32" thick. This will insulate the outer skin, 

preventing cooling of the pot scrubbers.



2. Install an angle to baffle flow. I think one running parallel the 

muffler just "downstream" of the intake, forcing the incoming flow to 

turn laterally to the outboard 2/3 of the muff would help a lot. This 

angle MUST seal against the muffler.



3. Speaking of seal, figure out some kind of high temp seal for the 

edges and angle baffle. I don't think you need RTV, I'm betting 

there's a nice rubberish seal for metal edges that can handle the 

800F or so the muffler sees. (Worst case you could figure out how to 

use the spam can cowl baffle seal material.) (I checked McMaster and 

they have some edge trim, (page 3619,) but it's silicone and good to 

only 450F. You could try it, though.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: kitfox heater

The first way to heat better is to use Lowell's louvers system to control

the air going to the radiator and oil cooler, way cool stuff.



john

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

Tom, 



I think part of the problem is that you need a larger air inlet.  My old one which I had on Rotax muffler same as yours  was about 3/4 inch height and the total length of the muffer ( about 15 "  maybe )  I have the round Kitfox cowl and it allows more than plenty of air  into the cowl.  Number of pot scrubbers 9?  Well i doubt that i had more thna 4 or 5 in mine and I had a long door spring 16" long attach to each side of heat muff and stuffed inside.   This acted as a retainer to hold the pot scrubbbers, yes they are only at the entrance of hte heat muff.



Oops  just found this -- i forgot i did this    http://www.cfisher.com/heatmuff/

I never ended up making heat muffs this week as I had a Kitfox come in for some work and on the way  here the owner had a clevis pin come out on the bar that holds the wing to vertical stab while in motion on a trailer  the wing started to swing out and did some damage. Almost done now and I did run it yesterday outside, it has a heater with a fan in the cabin and  seem to really blow out the heat.

Here is how mine worked .

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=21994

Went out for flight a while ago this AM . 

OAT -13 C (9F ) 

Cabin temp flying 10 to 12 C ( 50 to 54 F ) 

So basically Heating give me approx a boost in cabin temps about 40 to 45F 

increase on a overcast day and not bone chilling but still well below 

freezing.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

Thanks folks, these all sound like good logical suggestions to improve the heater.



Mike, the air flow is more like a gentle breeze.  A cool gentle breeze.  OAT air temperature was 29 Degrees F and I estimate inside was about 45 but I think most of that warmth was from the sun.



I'll make some mods and hope I can test again tomorrow. It's supposed to snow today.



Keep the ideas coming if you have some more anyone.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: kitfox heater

If your engine is fan cooled, (503) you have hot air comming off of the heads now, I would duct that air through a muffler heatbox to warm the air further.  The engine fan moves quite a bit of air, I would just watch the CHTs to make sure I wasn't restricting the air to much and getting the engine to warm.  If you are useing outside cold air, you have to warm it up that much more to do you any good.  I would get a carbon monoxide detector card also.  Jim Chuk  Avid Mk IV  Chisholm Mn

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: kitfox heater

 From: nahsikhs(at)elltel.net

 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 06:07:03 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>

 Thanks folks, these all sound like good logical suggestions to improve the heater.

 Mike, the air flow is more like a gentle breeze. A cool gentle breeze. OAT air temperature was 29 Degrees F and I estimate inside was about 45 but I think most of that warmth was from the sun.

 I'll make some mods and hope I can test again tomorrow. It's supposed to snow today.

 Keep the ideas coming if you have some more anyone.

 --------

 Tom Jones

 Classic IV, Phase one

 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

 Ellensburg, WA

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151280#151280

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

 	  thesupe(at)hotmail.com wrote: 	
		  If your engine is fan cooled, (503) you have hot air comming off of the heads now, I would duct that air through a muffler heatbox to warm the air further.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]  	
	




Jim, tapping into the warm air from the engine has been in the back of my mind but I haven't figured out a way to do it without butchering up the fan cowl.  It is a good option that I may fall back on if I can't get the exhaust muff system up to speed.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

Tom,



I checked earlier in shop-   I had 3 pot scrubbers in heat muff. 



will  post some pics for you later. 



A gentile  breeze if all  you need but you need it hot not cool and it should get real  hot. I would venture to guess that you have slowed the air  but you are not collecting the heat. enough.  When you finally  tune it in you gonna be quite happy.  



Remember I have coming in  about 6 or more sq inches inlet and you only have one  SCAT   tube. Although you are getting  air fact remains that you still need to get that air hotter. 



503 air outlet  by plugs is used very successfully by the Challenger guys as well.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: Re: kitfox heater

Ok I posted a few pics and info on how I made a cabin heat muff from a Rtoax 582  http://www.cfisher.com/heatmuff1/



Mine works well and the heat coming into cabin is  HOT   not warm.



http://www.cfisher.com/heatmuff1/

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