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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

I keep hearing this "Real Airplane" thing. Kolbs  ARE real airplanes!!! According to the FAA some Fireflys aren't but the rest  certainly are.

  

 If we as flyers of these "airplanes" don't refer to  them as such how is the airplane community ever going to give us the respect we  are due.

  

 Getting off my soap box now.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Real Airplanes

Not sure that being a real airplane is all that great anyway.



Being a real airplane means:

- It costs more than $10,000 a year to maintain.

- Can only land on 3,000' paved strips and expect to stay in one peice.

- It has so many gauges, levers, knobs, buttons and lights that you dont spend much time enjoying the scenery outside.

- Burns fuel at a spendy rate.

- Can be taxed very heavily by your local government if they feel like it.

- When crashed explodes in a ball of flames leaving no survivors.(Due to the large tanks required by the heft fuel burn rate.)

- Is not rebuildable after a crash.

- Can only be maintained by certified and licensed experts due to complexity.

- Costs $10,000 to repaint if you want to change the color.



Being a Kolb means NONE of those things.....because they are better than "real" airplanes.



Enjoy what you are(a Kolb) as the grass is not greener on the other side as you can plainly see.



PS: Just look at the tales of Kolb voyages to Monument Valley, Alaska,  river fishing trips, x-country, x-county, x-state adventures or around the local patch chasing clouds.....the pictures I have seen far exceed anything from the world of "real" aircraft....so I'd say the Kolbs are enjoying aviation much more whether they are real aircraft of not!!!



And a great bunch of people to hang with as well.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

You have missed my point. I agree with everything you said but Kolbs ARE 

real airplanes. We need to present that image to the aviation community. 

Most uninformed General Aviation pilots look at the Kolb boom tube and are 

convinced that they are ultra lights. Yes I know two seats more than five 

gallons of fuel etc. The guys that have been bending the ultra light rules 

for years have done us a great disservice. For so many years everyone has 

said yes that is a Ultra light. For those of you that are based at a ultra 

light strip and do nothing more than circle the field, you may not have ever 

faced discrimination from GA pilots. Most GA pilots have the perception that 

we don't fly real airplanes, aren't safe pilots, and yes are poor folks that 

they don't want invading their space.



I have been looking for a strip to fly from when I take my plane to Florida. 

There is a strip close to my house that would be perfect for my Kolb. Years 

ago a bunch of ultra light pilots made a REAL nuance of themselves. As a 

result the, county that runs the airport, has done everything in their power 

to keep anything that isn't a real airplane out of there. About two years 

ago I watched a two place tike fly for hours in and out of the strip cutting 

off GA aircraft right and left. During one stop I talked to the pilot and he 

proudly stated that he was a CFI doing training flights. He was obviously a 

poorly trained alphabet rated instructor (not FAA) that had never been made 

aware of traffic patterns or much of anything else. He had trailered his 

tike in and was gone before anyone caught up with him but the damage he and 

others have done will last for long long time.



We all need to be aware of the image we project. If you cause problems by 

all means call yourself an ultra light. If you are a LSA Pilot or more and 

fly a LSA you are a "real airplane".



Do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



- Original Message ----- 

From: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com>

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: Real Airplanes

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Not sure that being a real airplane is all that great anyway.



 Being a real airplane means:

 - It costs more than $10,000 a year to maintain.

 - Can only land on 3,000' paved strips and expect to stay in one peice.

 - It has so many gauges, levers, knobs, buttons and lights that you dont 

 spend much time enjoying the scenery outside.

 - Burns fuel at a spendy rate.

 - Can be taxed very heavily by your local government if they feel like it.

 - When crashed explodes in a ball of flames leaving no survivors.(Due to 

 the large tanks required by the heft fuel burn rate.)

 - Is not rebuildable after a crash.

 - Can only be maintained by certified and licensed experts due to 

 complexity.

 - Costs $10,000 to repaint if you want to change the color.



 Being a Kolb means NONE of those things.....because they are better than 

 "real" airplanes.



 Enjoy what you are(a Kolb) as the grass is not greener on the other side 

 as you can plainly see.



 PS: Just look at the tales of Kolb voyages to Monument Valley, Alaska, 

 river fishing trips, x-country, x-county, x-state adventures or around the 

 local patch chasing clouds.....the pictures I have seen far exceed 

 anything from the world of "real" aircraft....so I'd say the Kolbs are 

 enjoying aviation much more whether they are real aircraft of not!!!



 And a great bunch of people to hang with as well.



 --------

 Ray

 Riverside County, CA



 Do Not Archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=151939#151939

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Real Airplanes

I see what you mean Rick, and the GA community will also be seen as a nuisance and dangerous undisciplined pilots by the Very Light Jet Aircraft pilots that can use the same 3,000' GA strips.



The problem is that the aircraft have different base speeds and will always cause each other problems if all the pilots do not have very good judgment and a sharp situational awareness of the airspace and its occupants.



I am also not allowed to fly my Kolb Ultrastar Ultralight from a particular private airport because 20 years ago an few MX's decided it would be fun to buzz some homes.....people complained(Which they always do) and the City council reprimanded the Airport owner....and zap! no more Ultralights.   



I relate to your problem, but I also know that if I were to N-number my Kolb the airport owner would simply deny me permission to fly there anyway for some other reason even though I fly gliders there with no negative PR.



You will NOT get respect from the GA community on public airports now that your fat UL is N-numbered.



You will have to COMMAND that respect by showing your license and FAA authorization to any trouble makers and demand your equal rights as granted to you by the FAA.



If the airport is private your out of luck as they reserve the right to only let those they wish on their airport.



I would suggest you make friends with the airport operator so that he can grant you individually his invitation to fly from his airport as a personal friend instead of trying to lump yourself with everyone else and have to pay for any bad PR as a group.



However, having said that, I also know that public opinion has an enormous influence on private operations and that can be either a problem or an asset depending on your local situation. Consult your local city council members to see what you are up against, or how they may be able to influence the airport operator.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

Ray, you're welcome to land here.  I guarantee a short landing roll.



re: private airports.  There are a few privately owned ones that have  

been

the recipients of fed funds. If so they cannot refuse entry to a  

legal N-numbered

aircraft.

BB



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Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

Bob

Looks like a nice even runway, even if snow-covered. I iike the guard  

dog too!

I landed in a plant nursery once, in snow, in my 170  after an engine  

quit. Police measured landing roll at 95', and I had the world's most  

expensive bunch of fresh-cut forsythia!

On Dec 13, 2007, at 4:27 PM, robert bean wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ray, you're welcome to land here.  I guarantee a short landing roll.



 re: private airports.  There are a few privately owned ones that  

 have been

 the recipients of fed funds. If so they cannot refuse entry to a  

 legal N-numbered

 aircraft.

 BB



 <DSCN1518.jpg>



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 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>



 </b></font></pre>

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

At 02:02 PM 12/13/2007, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You have missed my point. I agree with everything you said but Kolbs ARE 

real airplanes. We need to present that image to the aviation community. 

Most uninformed General Aviation pilots look at the Kolb boom tube and are 

convinced that they are ultra lights...


	


Hah!  Speak for yourself; my Ultrastar IS an ultralight!



Not that I don't consider it (and fly it like) a "real" airplane (which it 

IS, compared to a Quicksilver!)



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Years ago a bunch of ultra light pilots made a REAL nuance of themselves...


	


That seems to be a common story everywhere.  Unfortunately, people remember 

the "bad old days"... and it only takes one latter day yahoo to remind them 

of it.  Or an ignorant GA pilot, even when the ultralight pilot is 

behaving... I have a friend who has been flying PPG for years from the same 

airport, with no problems and no complaints.  He launches from the grass 

away from the main runway, and flies his own pattern, as agreed, away from 

and below the GA pattern, and stays low over farm fields until well clear 

of the airport.  One day a visiting GA pilot saw him airborne, nowhere near 

him, and complained to the airport owner about "those dangerous 

things."    Now my friend has to find a new place to fly.



There's one local airport around here, owned by Whelan (yes, the wingtip 

strobe light people).  It's a pretty businesslike airport, Bonnanzas and 

twin Cessnas and the like, but they allow ultralights IF the pilot has a 

license.  I could keep my US there, but there's a friendlier airport about 

twice as far away (40 vs. 20 minutes from my house).  Unfortunately, the 

_really_ friendly airport, 10 minutes from my house, which mixed GA, UL's 

PPG's, and R/C models, with no friction (and lots of overlap), got sold for 

condos.



-Dana



do not archive



--

  America is two Mack trucks colliding on a superhighway because all the 

drivers are on amphetamines.

JAMESBEARD305(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Well said, Ray.  You also have a real airport, home-built friendly, in  Flabob.  What history; Art Scholl, etal, real pilots flying everything  experimental.  What an exciting home base!  Once a Chino Hills  resident, I've moved to Az where I can afford the room to build my Mk III Xtra,  and have a local airport (cottonwood) that is also friendly.  Just a couple  of lucky guys, right?

  

 Jim in Az  (right between NOAZ and SOAZ)  (what a choice!)

 [quote]   

.



.

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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152010#152010

http://www.matronics.com/c  Thank you for your generous    ;                         -Matt Dralle, List    nbsp;        Navigator  Photoshare, and    title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronic                via the Web  title=http://forums.matronics.com/    href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

_-===================================





[b]

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%: 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Being a real airplane means:

 - It costs more than $10,000 a year to maintain.


	


Nope...about $3k.



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Can only land on 3,000' paved strips and expect to stay in one peice.


	


Nope....into and out of 1400 ft grass strips with ease. My field is 

2600 ft, and I haven't seen pieces falling off yet. I prefer grass 

strips, actually....



 	  Quote: 	
		   - It has so many gauges, levers, knobs, buttons and lights that you dont spend much time enjoying the scenery outside.


	


Nope....the scenery just goes by quicker tho....



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Burns fuel at a spendy rate.


	


Nope....say you burn 4 GPH at 60 MPH, that's 15 MPG. Say my 

Bellanca Super Viking burns 12 GPH at 175 mph, that's 14.58 

MPG. Avgas costs more, true, but by the time you're 1/10th of 

the way there, I've arrived.



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Can be taxed very heavily by your local government if they feel like it.


	


Nope...$10 a year. Period. Obviously not the West Coast way.....



 	  Quote: 	
		   - When crashed explodes in a ball of flames leaving no survivors.(Due to the large tanks required by the heft fuel burn rate.)


	


Really? Going back one year there were 1862 accidents of all 

kinds, 369 with fatalities, 20% of all crashes. Of these, fire was a 

factor in 28 or so. Your fireball isn't all that effective, it seems.



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Is not rebuildable after a crash.


	


Perhaps not economically repairable, but repairable just the 

same. I guess one should define "crash" first....such as " I bent 

the gear and bent it back."



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Can only be maintained by certified and licensed experts due to complexity.


	


Gad, what a load. I did all the work replacing my engine in my 

certificated bird under the sign-off of an IA. Expert? Certified? 

Licensed? I'll accept the first of the three. Overhauled my 

hydraulic system as well. It's not hard unless you aren't 

mechanically inclined in which case I would leave it to the 

"experts".



 	  Quote: 	
		   - Costs $10,000 to repaint if you want to change the color.


	


And how often does that happen? Gee, I think I'll paint my 

airplane blue...5 years later....now I'll paint it yellow.....



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Being a Kolb means NONE of those things.....because they are better than "real" airplanes.


	


Such conceit. Denigrating one part of the whole to make your 

particular choice appear to be more reasonable is, 

well.....unreasonable.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Enjoy what you are(a Kolb) as the grass is not greener on the other side as you can plainly see.


	


No....the grass is just as green......

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   PS: Just look at the tales of Kolb voyages to Monument Valley,

 Alaska,  river fishing trips, x-country, x-county, x-state

 adventures or around the local patch chasing clouds.....the

 pictures I have seen far exceed anything from the world of "real"

 aircraft....so I'd say the Kolbs are enjoying aviation much more

 whether they are real aircraft of not!!!


	


Gee, I guess I've never gone anywhere or done anything. Up to 

Idaho to fish, Denver for a Broncos game, fly-in breakfasts two 

states over, maybe three if it's worth it (not Rhode Island, either), 

Oklahoma to Pennsylvania in a bit under 7 hrs more times than I 

care to count, Florida on a whim, Las Vegas for the weekend, 

well...just because I can.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And a great bunch of people to hang with as well.


	


The one statement I won't disagree with.



By now you're all steamed up thinking I'm a stuck-up GA type 

with his big, nasty, fast complex airplane who looks down on 

anyone who can't muster at least 160kts. My Kolb FS2 sits in the 

same hangar, and sees about as much use, as that evil 4-place 

beast. Each has its purpose and fills a specific need. Would I fly 

the FS2 to PA and back to OK in four days? Sure, only if I 

wanted to stay 20 minutes before leaving again. Would I drag 

out the Viking for an evening flight around the countryside at 100 

feet? Not likely.



Just a quick calc shows that it would take me about 95 gals to 

get to PA, one way....that's at an honest 55 mph, no wind, and 

would take 23:20 to cover 1034 miles, RNAV direct. That's flying 

time. Not counting the 16+ stops that each eat up at least 40 

minutes or more. Have to stop for the night unless registered 

and lighted. Sometimes, time is the most valuable thing you 

have.

Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

gtb(at)commspeed.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

In reference to the comments made by Ray (of Riverside, Ca):



I think you are very correct regarding all the points mentioned,

however, to make it a little more better understood, it actually

is greener on the other side, it is NOT however, grass.   



All that green on the 'other side' is the MONEY paving the way

to keep all those "real" aircraft, & pilots, in the air.



George



P.S.:  By the looks of it, the Sport Pilot/Light Sport Aircraft will

         be catching up to them, the "real" ones, in the not too distant

         future.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

Well said, Jim!

On Dec 13, 2007, at 11:12 PM, Jim Baker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 X-SpamReason %%SpamReason%%:

> Being a real airplane means:

> - It costs more than $10,000 a year to maintain.

 Nope...about $3k.

> - Can only land on 3,000' paved strips and expect to stay in one  

> peice.

 Nope....into and out of 1400 ft grass strips with ease. My field is

 2600 ft, and I haven't seen pieces falling off yet. I prefer grass

 strips, actually....

> - It has so many gauges, levers, knobs, buttons and lights that  

> you dont spend much time enjoying the scenery outside.

 Nope....the scenery just goes by quicker tho....

> - Burns fuel at a spendy rate.

 Nope....say you burn 4 GPH at 60 MPH, that's 15 MPG. Say my

 Bellanca Super Viking burns 12 GPH at 175 mph, that's 14.58

 MPG. Avgas costs more, true, but by the time you're 1/10th of

 the way there, I've arrived.

> - Can be taxed very heavily by your local government if they feel  

> like it.

 Nope...$10 a year. Period. Obviously not the West Coast way.....

> - When crashed explodes in a ball of flames leaving no survivors. 

> (Due to the large tanks required by the heft fuel burn rate.)

 Really? Going back one year there were 1862 accidents of all

 kinds, 369 with fatalities, 20% of all crashes. Of these, fire was a

 factor in 28 or so. Your fireball isn't all that effective, it seems.

> - Is not rebuildable after a crash.

 Perhaps not economically repairable, but repairable just the

 same. I guess one should define "crash" first....such as " I bent

 the gear and bent it back."

> - Can only be maintained by certified and licensed experts due to  

> complexity.

 Gad, what a load. I did all the work replacing my engine in my

 certificated bird under the sign-off of an IA. Expert? Certified?

 Licensed? I'll accept the first of the three. Overhauled my

 hydraulic system as well. It's not hard unless you aren't

 mechanically inclined in which case I would leave it to the

 "experts".

> - Costs $10,000 to repaint if you want to change the color.

 And how often does that happen? Gee, I think I'll paint my

 airplane blue...5 years later....now I'll paint it yellow.....

>

> Being a Kolb means NONE of those things.....because they are  

> better than "real" airplanes.

 Such conceit. Denigrating one part of the whole to make your

 particular choice appear to be more reasonable is,

 well.....unreasonable.

> Enjoy what you are(a Kolb) as the grass is not greener on the  

> other side as you can plainly see.

 No....the grass is just as green......

> PS: Just look at the tales of Kolb voyages to Monument Valley,

> Alaska,  river fishing trips, x-country, x-county, x-state

> adventures or around the local patch chasing clouds.....the

> pictures I have seen far exceed anything from the world of "real"

> aircraft....so I'd say the Kolbs are enjoying aviation much more

> whether they are real aircraft of not!!!

 Gee, I guess I've never gone anywhere or done anything. Up to

 Idaho to fish, Denver for a Broncos game, fly-in breakfasts two

 states over, maybe three if it's worth it (not Rhode Island, either),

 Oklahoma to Pennsylvania in a bit under 7 hrs more times than I

 care to count, Florida on a whim, Las Vegas for the weekend,

 well...just because I can.

> And a great bunch of people to hang with as well.

 The one statement I won't disagree with.

 By now you're all steamed up thinking I'm a stuck-up GA type

 with his big, nasty, fast complex airplane who looks down on

 anyone who can't muster at least 160kts. My Kolb FS2 sits in the

 same hangar, and sees about as much use, as that evil 4-place

 beast. Each has its purpose and fills a specific need. Would I fly

 the FS2 to PA and back to OK in four days? Sure, only if I

 wanted to stay 20 minutes before leaving again. Would I drag

 out the Viking for an evening flight around the countryside at 100

 feet? Not likely.

 Just a quick calc shows that it would take me about 95 gals to

 get to PA, one way....that's at an honest 55 mph, no wind, and

 would take 23:20 to cover 1034 miles, RNAV direct. That's flying

 time. Not counting the 16+ stops that each eat up at least 40

 minutes or more. Have to stop for the night unless registered

 and lighted. Sometimes, time is the most valuable thing you

 have.

 Jim Baker

 580.788.2779

 Elmore City, OK

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Real Airplanes

For what it's worth,



I flew my (now Bob's) FSII out of a class D field for a while with nary a snide comment from anyone. In fact, the controllers were absolutely enthralled by it as it was quite a break from the jets and cessna trainers they normally watched all day. 



Course, I tried to be a good citizen who always behaved, followed the rules and did what the controllers told him. So if I may say so myself, at least my airport has a good taste in their mouth left over from Kolbs.



Even the titan I fly now gets called "ultralight" from time to time, and he goes 100mph...... But when the tower says go there I go there...... that really helps our image a lot.



I too don't understand how any non-living thing that flies through the air can't be considered a "real airplane". Bad behavior by a few bad apples can indeed sully that image, but a well behaved Kolb is, in my experience, acceptable even at a busy class D....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Real Airplanes

Well said Jim.....my rant was more for amusement value than any sort of serious statement.....I knew someone would have the other points of view laid out quickly enough.



Truth be known, the GA community has help keep pleasure flying a possibility along with the concept and practice of "Experimental" aircraft.



The paranoid would like to eliminate all non business flying altogether and had the GA community not been there then none of us would be allowed to fly, except at much greater cost.



My concept of an "Airplane" comes from what I have read about the early pioneers and in the US I figure Wilbur and Orville Wright defined what an "airplane" would be.



It it flys and can be controlleed the it sure IS an airplane and I don't care what technology makes it possible.....



The FAA must define it their own way in order to scope out what it is they are regulating.



I fly all type of flying "Things" personally and enjoy them all.....gliders, Experimentals, Ultralights, Paragliders, RC models and jumping off the roof wearing a bedsheet in my very early days.



Its All good, and we all think ours is better than the others due to our focused enthusiasm....

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

I see what you mean Rick, and the GA community will also be seen as a

nuisance and dangerous undisciplined pilots by the Very Light Jet Aircraft

pilots that can use the same 3,000' GA strips.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>.


	


A few years ago the airport manager told a powered parachute driver to quit

operations, stating safety reasons.  And I thought he had been operating

ok... and I told the airport manager so.  Then told him of a situation with

a t33 driver based at our airport. when I was on short final just after

announcing on the radio my turn from base to final,,,  a pilot in a old t33

navy jet  announced " 7 1/2 mile straight in final,, everybody get out of my

way"      



Even though the airport manager thought it was a feather in his cap to have

the t33 use the airport,,,,  he was told of my displeasure of the t33

driver's attitude and technique,   I was later told that his attitude

stemmed from not wanting to spend the cost of fuel to enter the pattern

correctly or follow right of way rules.



 I had been on good terms with the pilot,,, but a couple weeks later he

moved his t33 from Brigham out to Wendover,,,  I was told that the move was

based on cheaper hanger rent...  but the next time I saw the man at a fly in

he was not his old friendly self... but when I asked how he was you would

have thought the room would turn to ice when he responded...  now I am not

sure why he moved.....   



Long story short....    the ax cuts both ways.



Boyd.



Do not archive.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

> I see what you mean Rick, and the GA community will also be seen as a

 	  Quote: 	
		   nuisance and dangerous undisciplined pilots by the Very Light Jet Aircraft

 pilots that can use the same 3,000' GA strips.


	




Hi Boyd Y:



Chickens have been doing it for millenniums.  Called the "pecking order" I 

believe.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

Good story.  I believe in equal rights for humans as well as pilots.   

Big expensive/fast airplanes

deserve no more priority than us slowpokes. I related this experience  

once before but it p****d  me off

enough that it deserves retelling.  I was in a long line downwind at  

Hawthorne apt. and the tower

told everyone to "do a right 360" because Northrop's corporate  

Gulfstream was doing a srtaight-in.

-Nearly got killed when a low-winger passed within inches of my roof.

Screw that jet.  Make him enter the pattern like everyone else.  Hang  

out some flaps, wheels, open the windows,

stick their hands out the windows.  drag an old mattress behind him.   

-I don't care.



Since then I have delighted in slowing my plane down to stagger when  

a fast guy is behind me.

Been doing it for 35 years.



BB



On 14, Dec 2007, at 4:12 PM, boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I see what you mean Rick, and the GA community will also be seen as a

 nuisance and dangerous undisciplined pilots by the Very Light Jet  

 Aircraft

 pilots that can use the same 3,000' GA strips.



>>>>>>>>>>>>> .



 A few years ago the airport manager told a powered parachute driver  

 to quit

 operations, stating safety reasons.  And I thought he had been  

 operating

 ok... and I told the airport manager so.  Then told him of a  

 situation with

 a t33 driver based at our airport. when I was on short final just  

 after

 announcing on the radio my turn from base to final,,,  a pilot in a  

 old t33

 navy jet  announced " 7 1/2 mile straight in final,, everybody get  

 out of my

 way"



 Even though the airport manager thought it was a feather in his cap  

 to have

 the t33 use the airport,,,,  he was told of my displeasure of the t33

 driver's attitude and technique,   I was later told that his attitude

 stemmed from not wanting to spend the cost of fuel to enter the  

 pattern

 correctly or follow right of way rules.



  I had been on good terms with the pilot,,, but a couple weeks  

 later he

 moved his t33 from Brigham out to Wendover,,,  I was told that the  

 move was

 based on cheaper hanger rent...  but the next time I saw the man at  

 a fly in

 he was not his old friendly self... but when I asked how he was you  

 would

 have thought the room would turn to ice when he responded...  now I  

 am not

 sure why he moved.....



 Long story short....    the ax cuts both ways.



 Boyd.



 Do not archive.

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Real Airplanes

Not the Grumman's fault, that was controller error. Not all controllers 

are equally proficient, and you got a lame one. We had such a person at 

the facility I used to work at, and after various pilots started making 

remarks on frequency that "360 Betty must be working today," things got 

better...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



robert bean wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Good story.  I believe in equal rights for humans as well as pilots.  

 Big expensive/fast airplanes

 deserve no more priority than us slowpokes. I related this experience 

 once before but it p****d  me off

 enough that it deserves retelling.  I was in a long line downwind at 

 Hawthorne apt. and the tower

 told everyone to "do a right 360" because Northrop's corporate 

 Gulfstream was doing a srtaight-in.

 -Nearly got killed when a low-winger passed within inches of my roof.

 Screw that jet.  Make him enter the pattern like everyone else.  Hang 

 out some flaps, wheels, open the windows,

 stick their hands out the windows.  drag an old mattress behind him.  

 -I don't care.



 Since then I have delighted in slowing my plane down to stagger when a 

 fast guy is behind me.

 Been doing it for 35 years.



 BB



 On 14, Dec 2007, at 4:12 PM, boyd wrote:



> 

>

> I see what you mean Rick, and the GA community will also be seen as a

> nuisance and dangerous undisciplined pilots by the Very Light Jet 

> Aircraft

> pilots that can use the same 3,000' GA strips.

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>

> A few years ago the airport manager told a powered parachute driver 

> to quit

> operations, stating safety reasons.  And I thought he had been operating

> ok... and I told the airport manager so.  Then told him of a 

> situation with

> a t33 driver based at our airport. when I was on short final just after

> announcing on the radio my turn from base to final,,,  a pilot in a 

> old t33

> navy jet  announced " 7 1/2 mile straight in final,, everybody get 

> out of my

> way"

>

> Even though the airport manager thought it was a feather in his cap 

> to have

> the t33 use the airport,,,,  he was told of my displeasure of the t33

> driver's attitude and technique,   I was later told that his attitude

> stemmed from not wanting to spend the cost of fuel to enter the pattern

> correctly or follow right of way rules.

>

>  I had been on good terms with the pilot,,, but a couple weeks later he

> moved his t33 from Brigham out to Wendover,,,  I was told that the 

> move was

> based on cheaper hanger rent...  but the next time I saw the man at a 

> fly in

> he was not his old friendly self... but when I asked how he was you 

> would

> have thought the room would turn to ice when he responded...  now I 

> am not

> sure why he moved.....

>

> Long story short....    the ax cuts both ways.

>

> Boyd.

>

> Do not archive.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

There are a few privately owned ones that have

been

the recipients of fed funds. If so they cannot refuse entry to a

legal N-numbered

aircraft.>>



We had this problem with ultralights being unwelcome at airfields a few 

years ago but it seems to have sorted itself out now.



It was usually a perceived problem with the mixtures of speeds in the 

ciruit.  Most ultralight pilots have learned to keep their speed well up 

until the last moment and the trouble seems to have taken care of itself. 

Many airfields now advertise `Ultralight welcome`

Of course the problem is not helped by idiots flying as slowly as possible 

in the pattern just to prove some imagined point.

Cheers



Pat

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Real Airplanes

Kolbers, please forgive my recent querulous and pugnacious posting.  - 

sometimes I get my

back up and exaggerate.  I usually get along politely in the landing  

queues.  I remember

being wrong once (moi?!!)  Before computers and a lack of home  

delivery of the AIM I did

enter the wrong way for the correct runway at a busy flyin with no  

knowledge of a recent

left/right pattern imposition.  -got cussed at by some cessna driver  

wearing one of those

goofy looking jump suits with all the patches on it.   I held my tongue.

BB

do not archive

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Real Airplanes

I got asked the question this fall, "how does your UL (it is a FSII) compare to a real plane?"  I said it flies like most planes I have flown in the past but just a lot slower.  I guess I did not think much more about it.  But this topic did ring the recall bell.



I am lucky to get to fly nearly every week.  The discussion about speed, following patterns, spacing ..... is universal.  I don't care if is a C152 or a G5.  There are freestyle fliers everywhere.  That is part of my job to look, watch and anticipate.  



I always fly the published traffic pattern unless I am on a instrument approach, then there is not much choice other than a circle to land.  My plane flies the pattern at 120 kts, final at 120kts and I cant slow it below 100 till I am committed to land.  So, often it is a challenge to fit in.  A Citation jet may be able to handle 85 kts but I cant.  



When going to an uncontrolled airport with a lot of GA traffic, I usually get puckered up trying to keep good spacing.  I have needed to go around when I misjudge.  I listen to who is behind me and try to accommodate too when able. I watch the planes on the ground try to communicate with them and allow departure spacing when possible.  It is all good etiquette.



I was taught to fly this way, but I don't think it is taught much today.  I sat on the departure end of a runway this week for what seemed like 30 minutes (probably was half that).  There was a new composite LSA type, a  Cherokee, C152 and a cool looking experimental all in the pattern doing T&G.  I could not get out.  It was hard to miss my plane idling at the end of the runway.  I finally asked if someone could cut me a bit of space so I could get out.  The experimental obliged and I was on my way.



Thinking about this now, why did I need to ask?  The C152 had an instructor on board, I could see him looking at me as they came by and his coaching his student on the radio.  Why did he not teach his student how to make space for a departing plane this like mine did many years ago. 



The guy with the T33 probably needs a 7 mile final, he is not flying that thing every day and it most likely is tough to get stabilized on a short less than 5 miles (for him).  The Gulfstream cant fly close in patterns, they cant see as well out of the cockpit either.  I can fly a 3/4 mile downwind easy,  1/3 mile is easy for a C150 is dangerous for me.



I can't slow down to match the pattern of most lighter traffic, it is not safe. But, I can always get in sequence if I plan ahead, listen, watch, and not be in a huge hurry to get down.  I can do this with a good measure of safety too.



I guess my point is we all need to be alert, listen, watch and set a good example for others to follow.  Both coming and going.  I plan to mention this to the Flight School at my airport encourage instructors to teach this too.



We all need to be on guard at all times for traffic, especially the "freestyle" fliers.  When I am trolling along in my FS, I know who will feel it hardest in a mid-air.



Fly safe,



Jim



do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

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