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Main Spar Bolts and Holes

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

OK builders here is one for you....

  

 I m about to install my wings on the 601 XL  QBK.

 The other night I wanted to see how tight the main  spar bolts would fit into the wing spar ( factory drilled ) holes.

 Man O man, there is a lot of "slop" in the  holes.

 I emailed Zenith and told them that I was concerned  about this critical part.

 The first answer I got from Zenith was, " Some slop  is needed to get the bolts in the holes "....

 I disagreed..

 Zenith asked me to measure the holes.  I  did.  Used a caliper on the bolts and then the holes.  I got a reading  of .011..

 Eleven thousandths.....difference.

 I m not a machinist but I aint totally stupit  either.

 Then Zenith emailed and said that I need to  increase the spar hole size to an AN-6.  Thats 3/8 inch.....

 Since I m not into dying just yet I asked Zenith  engineers to confirm the the AN 6 size is safe.  I am worried about the  metal removal on the spar.   

 They did....Said that in no way will going to an AN  6 decrease the wing strength.....

 Sooooo,  what I want to know from you builders  is this:  Tell us about your experience with the spar and bolts.  Were  yours tight ??? Sloppy ??

  

 Steve W

  

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

When you enlarge the holes use an undersized drill and then a reamer.  

   

-- Craig  

   

       [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

My spar bolts fit very snug, no slop at all.



On Dec 14, 2007, at 7:12 PM, steve wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  OK builders here is one for you....

 

I m about to install my wings on the 601 XL QBK.

The other night I wanted to see how tight the main spar bolts would fit into the wing spar ( factory drilled ) holes.

Man O man, there is a lot of "slop" in the holes.

I emailed Zenith and told them that I was concerned about this critical part.

The first answer I got from Zenith was, " Some slop is needed to get the bolts in the holes "....

I disagreed..

Zenith asked me to measure the holes.  I did.  Used a caliper on the bolts and then the holes.  I got a reading of .011..

Eleven thousandths.....difference.

I m not a machinist but I aint totally stupit either.

Then Zenith emailed and said that I need to increase the spar hole size to an AN-6.  Thats 3/8 inch.....

Since I m not into dying just yet I asked Zenith engineers to confirm the the AN 6 size is safe.  I am worried about the metal removal on the spar.  

They did....Said that in no way will going to an AN 6 decrease the wing strength.....

Sooooo,  what I want to know from you builders is this:  Tell us about your experience with the spar and bolts.  Were yours tight ??? Sloppy ??

 

Steve W

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  	


	




 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

papaniapatrick(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

I am building an XL, but it is not a quick build. My wing spar bolts are a tight fit into the holes. I fitted pins for the wing spars so that I could trial fit the wings during construction and fitting. There was absolutely no slop what so ever.

 

 

 --

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

I scratch built my spars and worked for many, many hours to insure that there was no slop in the bolt/bolt hole interface.  If I had known it was allowed, I could have relaxed more (insert goofy looking smiley face here). 

  

 Larry Winger

 601XL/Corvair

 Tustin, CA

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Larry, it may be allowed but I m not pleased with  slop.

 Not sure but rumor has it that a 601 lost a  wing.  Anyone know if thats true ?  So thats why I m not happy with  loose bolts.

 SW

 [quote]   ---

gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

mine were tight-----------------

  

 George May

 601XL 912s



do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	
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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

I was a quick built Kit and my spar bolt holes were missaligned and tighter.  The problem lies in the fact that the spar cassette can slide down when the wings are off. so took oversized screw driver and as wings were placed,  I hammered the driver through to realign  the bolt holes.  A few were tight and we bought the AN 6 size bolts and instead tried to hammer the suppled bolts. That finally worked.  AN 6 would work,  thicker bolt afterall than an5s.   The wings you mentioned fell off the plane because the flyer forgot that manauvering speed was 103, not 130.  6 gs is "utility at manauvering speed.   Irrelevant to whether AN6 bolt.  When the bolts are bolted in   Torgue them to proper speck,  AN6 have different Torques.  Toirque the rear spar bolt as well.  As per Faa documents, "if bolts are torqued per the chart, the default rate is zero".



--

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Steve, my bolts were a good fit. On enlarging the holes and bolts. Do NOT drill to the final size. Buy and use a reemer. Large drill bits make three sided holes. Also on the bolts. If your going to the expense buy NAS bolts. They are much stronger than ANs and closer tolerance. At my next annual I plan on replacing my XL AN spar bolts with NAS bolts. Best of luck, Bill of Georgia

**************************************

See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)  [quote][b]

sky_ranger161

Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 91

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Hey guys,

   

  Like Larry, I scratch-built my spars and spent an insane amount of time lining up, drilling, and reaming the spar bolt holes. Mine are what Section 7-39 of the AC43.13-1B says bolt holes of primary connecting elements should be - a "light-drive" fit. 

   

  Since I know the next question, a "light-drive" fit is defined as "an interference of 0.0006 inch for a 5/8 inch bolt." For those of us (me included) that need further explanation, that's tight.

   

  God knows I'm no expert. Just passing along what the book says.

   

  Debo Cox

  Nags Head, NC

  Scratch-built XL/Corvair

  www.mykitlog.com/debo

   

  Do not archive

 [quote][b]

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Steve,  

            I'm building an HD, but I can tell you that the holes in the splice plate that connects the center wing spar with the outer wing spar are 3/8 and 5/16.  I had to replace the rear splice plates from the factory so I drilled those holes.  With a drill and then a reamer in a drill press, I got a snug fit that required just a little pressure to get the bolts into the holes through the splice plates and spar caps.  They were a tight enough fit that they would not go through unless the plate was exactly flat and lined up with the spar caps.  The point is that 3/8 size is normal in the HD/HDS wing spar caps.     

            Jeff Davidson  

     

   

    

<snip>  

    

Then Zenith emailed and said that I need to increase the spar hole size to an AN-6.  Thats 3/8 inch.....  

    

Since I m not into dying just yet I asked Zenith engineers to confirm the the AN 6 size is safe.  I am worried about the metal removal on the spar.     

    

They did....Said that in no way will going to an AN 6 decrease the wing strength.....  

    

Sooooo,  what I want to know from you builders is this:  Tell us about your experience with the spar and bolts.  Were yours tight ??? Sloppy ??  

    

   

    

Steve W  

    

   

  [quote]  [b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Mine are tight and I reamed them up to 5/16 from 1/4"  I kept everything bolted together and only worked one hole at a time. With your QB I'm guessing the wings and fuselage are built. Bolt it together, check your Dihedral and work one hole at a time with a hand drill and vee block. Get a set of reamers to open the holes up a little at a time. 



You can see the process I used at this link:



http://mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=rlendon&project=113&category=0&log=24457&row=228

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Since the center section and main spars are supposed to be match  drilled is the slop the same in the wing spars also? I have helped build 3  601's and all of the spar bolts were tight but not so tight that if they were  aligned perfectly that you couldn't slide them in with your hand. If you line  them up correctly you shouldn't have to knock them in. It is also a good idea to  sacrifice a couple of bolts and grind them to a point and remove all threads  then polish them so you can more easily locate the holes.

  

 But the bigger question is where is Zeniths quality control?????

  

  In a message dated 12/14/2007 7:16:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     OK builders here is one for you....

    

   I m about to install my wings on the 601 XL    QBK.

   The other night I wanted to see how tight the    main spar bolts would fit into the wing spar ( factory drilled )    holes.

   Man O man, there is a lot of "slop" in the    holes.

   I emailed Zenith and told them that I was    concerned about this critical part.

   The first answer I got from Zenith was, " Some    slop is needed to get the bolts in the holes "....

   I disagreed..

   Zenith asked me to measure the holes.  I    did.  Used a caliper on the bolts and then the holes.  I got a    reading of .011..

   Eleven thousandths.....difference.

   I m not a machinist but I aint totally stupit    either.

   Then Zenith emailed and said that I need to    increase the spar hole size to an AN-6.  Thats 3/8 inch.....

   Since I m not into dying just yet I asked Zenith    engineers to confirm the the AN 6 size is safe.  I am worried about the    metal removal on the spar.   

   They did....Said that in no way will going to an    AN 6 decrease the wing strength.....

   Sooooo,  what I want to know from you    builders is this:  Tell us about your experience with the spar and    bolts.  Were yours tight ??? Sloppy ??

    

   Steve W

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

One additional suggestion..  whether they are  tight or not, have someone preload the wing upward, just by lifting the tip by a  few pounds, before and as you tighten the bolts.

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk  VIII

    [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

This "slop" that I found is in the wing spars AND the carry through spar in  the fuselage.  All holes are "sloppy"...

 I ve been building and maintaining aircraft for 43 years now and this is  the first I ve seen this.  Thats why I questioned Zenith in the first  place.   Sounds like its an easy fix using a 3/8 reamer but I agree  "where is Zeniths quality control".  I removed these quick built wings from  the factory crate and know that the problem happened at Zenith.

 The difference from AN 5 to AN 6 dosent seem like a big deal but I think it  is.  Hold up a 5/16 bolt next to a 3/8 and tell me it isnt.

  

 Again, I really thank you guys for the feed back.

 No one has said a bad thing against using the AN 6 bolt.

 It will be a pain the purchase a reamer and go in the fuselage to correct  the problem.

  

  

 Steve W

 [quote]   ---

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

Steve, this may go without saying but you'll really want to lock the whole assembly together as rigidly as possible before reaming anything.  

  

 I would start by filling all but one hole with the AN 5 bolts.  Once they are all in place, if there is still movement between the center and wing spar, 

 I would find a way to carefully clamp them together.  Then I would remove one bolt at a time, ream that hole, and replace with the AN 6 bolt before 

 proceeding to the next.  That way you don't magnify the effect of the slop, just making it bigger slop.

  

 On the bright side, assuming there is no degredation of structural integrity by enlarging the holes in the web/doublers, you'll have even stronger bolts 

 than the rest of us.  Think of it as a blessing in disguise!

  

 Larry Winger

 601XL/Corvair

 Tustin, CA

  

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

While there may be no issue with going out to 0.375"ø for the holes, maybe use an NAS oversize standard bolt and match ream to fit?



The larger 0.375" holes will have better bearing strength due to the larger diameter - all things considered.



steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:[quote]       OK builders here is one for you....

  

 I m about to install my wings on the 601 XL  QBK.

 The other night I wanted to see how tight the main  spar bolts would fit into the wing spar ( factory drilled ) holes.

 Man O man, there is a lot of "slop" in the  holes.

 I emailed Zenith and told them that I was concerned  about this critical part.

 The first answer I got from Zenith was, " Some slop  is needed to get the bolts in the holes "....

 I disagreed..

 Zenith asked me to measure the holes.  I  did.  Used a caliper on the bolts and then the holes.  I got a reading  of .011..

 Eleven thousandths.....difference.

 I m not a machinist but I aint totally stupit  either.

 Then Zenith emailed and said that I need to  increase the spar hole size to an AN-6.  Thats 3/8 inch.....

 Since I m not Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Main Spar Bolts and Holes

If there is enough slop that the wings can move up and down with the bolts  in place I would tell zenith to send me a new set of wings and center section  if you drills them and mess them up they are yours. If you hold Zenith to  the fire on this one they will get to the problem and make sure it doesn't  happen again but if you fix it they will figure out of sight out of mind.  And worse if you mess it up you own a set of wings that they will say  "Prove they were wrong in the first place" You should have been shipped the  proper parts in the first place.

  

  In a message dated 12/15/2007 2:54:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  larrywinger(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Steve, this may go without saying but you'll really want to lock the    whole assembly together as rigidly as possible before reaming anything.     

    

   I would start by filling all but one hole with the AN 5 bolts.  Once    they are all in place, if there is still movement between the center and wing    spar, 

   I would find a way to carefully clamp them together.  Then I would    remove one bolt at a time, ream that hole, and replace with the AN 6 bolt    before 

   proceeding to the next.  That way you don't magnify the effect of    the slop, just making it bigger slop.

    

   On the bright side, assuming there is no degredation of structural    integrity by enlarging the holes in the web/doublers, you'll have even    stronger bolts 

   than the rest of us.  Think of it as a blessing in disguise!

    

   Larry Winger

   601XL/Corvair

   Tustin, CA

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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