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BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

to all

i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 



please help,



Bobby Paulk

N131BP

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Bobby,

I put a sealed sandwich construct behind the slots that is held by two 

bolts.  An O-ring  grommet fits the steering rod and effectively seals 

the opening.

Not hard to make as an afterthought. Install should be the same.  See link,

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier.gif

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier-2.gif

Put a little silicone seal around the edge toward the firewall and allow 

the slider with grommet to move up, down and a small amount sideways and 

you've got it.



I'd also suggest you extend your exhaust pipe(s) to one side and or 

behind the firewall.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 to all

 i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 



 please help,



 Bobby Paulk

 N131BP

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: carbon monoxide

Do you have a cabin heat system?  If yes, it should be checked out as well.



The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away.  Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

I really like Larry's sandwich construct to close off the slots. However, I'm concerned that there will still not be an effective fire barrier. I haven't begun to design it yet, but I'm thinking combining Larry's sandwich with something like the eyeball fittings sold by Van's, Cat No. EYEBALL TTP-125 



 http://tinyurl.com/2t6rwd 



 to provide a better seal. 



 I haven't looked at heater valve supplied with my FWF kit. But I'm considering the stainless steel heater valve sold by epm.av:



 http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html



 I also like their firewall penetration systems. 



 Then, again, I wonder, does it make sense to work to really seal the fire wall when the cowl is epoxy-fiberglass composite, and the only thing between me and a fire coming out of the cowl is a Plexiglass canopy? I really don't know.



 Any thoughts?



 Terry



 

 At 12:44 PM 12/15/2007 -0600, you wrote:

 [quote]Bobby,

 I put a sealed sandwich construct behind the slots that is held by two bolts.  An O-ring  grommet fits the steering rod and effectively seals the opening.

 Not hard to make as an afterthought. Install should be the same.  See link,

 http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier.gif

 http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier-2.gif

 Put a little silicone seal around the edge toward the firewall and allow the slider with grommet to move up, down and a small amount sideways and you've got it.



 I'd also suggest you extend your exhaust pipe(s) to one side and or behind the firewall.



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



 BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net



 to all

 i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 

 please help,



 Bobby Paulk

 N131BP 	




 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail (almost) finished; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ [b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

shilcom

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

There has been a lot of discussion on this  thread.  What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the  differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure  area.  Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure  side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and  mentioned below.  Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run.   Bob U. 

 [quote]   ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Of course if you place the gascolator  where the plans call for it (poking through the floor just in front of the center spar) then you have a nice hole well behind the end of most exhaust pipes. And with its wire bale the gascolator supplied by Zenith is hard to seal up.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unternaehrer

 Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:53 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: carbon monoxide  

  

  

     

There has been a lot of discussion on this thread.  What doesn't seem to be talked about much is keeping the differential pressure positive in the cabin vs the upper engine high pressure area.  Sealing the firewall is important, especially on the high pressure side, but getting the exhaust out of the cowl area is also important and mentioned below.  Don't depend on any firewall seal in the long run.  Bob U.   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Tim Juhl (juhl(at)avci.net)   

    

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:03 PM  

    

Subject: Re: carbon monoxide  

    

   

  

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net (juhl(at)avci.net)>

 

 Do you have a cabin heat system?  If yes, it should be checked out as well.

 

 The existance of exhaust stains on the lower firewall would suggest that the exhaust pipe does not penetrate far enough into the slipstream to carry the exhaust away.  Obviously you don't want to be dumping exhaust into the engine compartment.

 

 Tim

 

 --------

 ______________

 CFII

 Champ L16A flying

 Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A

 Working on wings

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152472#152472

 

 

 <Bp;      -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;                      -Matt Dralle, List nbsp;       Features Chat, --> http://www.matron=======================

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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Blue RTV to seal the Gascolator location works perfect.  With the mufflers extended down with 5 iunch extensions I have no CO.



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

To All;



Put you mufflers on, and look to se how far past the firewall the pipes go. They should come down enought and far enough back to blow the exhaust into the slip stream and not on the plane.  SImple fix is look at the pipe from the side and meaure with wire the length. down.  Take your muffler to a regular muffler shop or better and machine race car shop.  For ten bucks they will make you a set of clamp on extensions to the muffler.  Mine work great.  I get no CO in cabin,  No heat in cabin either.  By cutting the extesnion tip at a 45 degree angle away from hull,  there is little noise in flight ,   no resonance.   No difference in performance either.



Juan Vega



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

The factory recommended placement of the gascolator  was my first disapointment in the design.  I aint never going to have a  source of a gas leak in my cabin area.  I know Mooney has the same setup  but I placed my gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the  firewall...

 SW

 [quote]   ---

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

do not archive  

   

Yes indeed.  The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions.  I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too.  I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator.  This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601.  

   

Jeff Davidson  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve

 Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:05 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: carbon monoxide  

  

     

The factory recommended placement of the gascolator was my first disapointment in the design.  I aint never going to have a source of a gas leak in my cabin area.  I know Mooney has the same setup but I placed my gascolater as Cessna and Piper do, on the engine side of the firewall...  

    

SW  

  [quote]    

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

OK, what is the "Check" design ????

  

 Sw

 [quote]   ---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: Re: carbon monoxide

I think he is referring to 601's as built in Czechoslovakia.



Tim



do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Jeff, would you please describe the fuel lines routing you mentioned?

Would you have a picture or diagram to share?

Thanks in advance



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans

Montreal, Canada



 On 16/12/2007, Jeff <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net (jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:[quote]                  

   

Yes indeed.  The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions.  I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too.  I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator.  This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601.  

   

Jeff Davidson



[b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Do you have a cabin heat system? Where is the air for that system coming 

from? Some of the earlier Jabiru exhaust system had problems with 

cracking welds. Check your exhaust system for leaks, make sure your 

cabin heat system is not ingesting contaminated air.



BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 to all

 i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 

 

 please help,

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

I am somewhat conflicted. I have a WW Corvair engine in my 601XL.  Both exhaust pipes exit below and behind the lower part of the cowling.  I have a heat muff on the left pipe for cabin heat.  I have it connected with scat to a firewall mounted flapper control box.  The box has no provision for dumping waste air.  The heat muff has an open flange to let air in.  I don't have it connected to a NACA inlet at present.  My thinking is that there will be enough air through the baffled engine cooling fins, and there will be enough pressure to supply cabin heat air.  I know that this arrangement would allow exhaust fumes into the cabin in the event of a cracked exhaust pipe.  However, the WW exhaust pipes are are so simple that they are not likely to crack. Or are they?  Should I go with the NACA intake and make provisions to dump waste air when the cabin heat valve is closed?

Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J

Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Do you have a cabin heat system? Where is the air for that system coming 

from? Some of the earlier Jabiru exhaust system had problems with 

cracking welds. Check your exhaust system for leaks, make sure your 

cabin heat system is not ingesting contaminated air.

BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:

> 

> 

> to all

> i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 

> 

> please help,

> 

-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

gboothe5(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: carbon monoxide

Jay,



Your set up is time tested in countless small A/C dating back to the 40's,

and exactly what WW promotes. Inspections should include opening the heat

muff and visually inspecting the exhaust pipe. Maybe you would add a simple

cockpit sensor for piece of mind.



Gary Boothe 

Cool, CA 

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 90% done, 

Tail done, wings done, working on c-section

--

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: carbon monoxide

My champ (built in 1946) uses a similar system with the exception that one side of the muff is connected to a flange on the front baffle just inside the cowling intakes.  This ram air provides a little more pressure to push the air thru the heat muff into the cabin.  The box on the firewall does have an opening to dump the waste air when cabin heat is not desired.  The Champ's cabin has a lot of air leaks so the heat isn't too effective.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: carbon monoxide

Yes - In Chip Erwin's factory.  ZAC and Erwin ended their relationship a

while back, but the Chechoslovakia plans were available over the internet.

I short, they run the fuel lines to the fuel selector on the console, then

down aluminum tube to the firewall and through to the gascolator on the

lower right corner of the firewall on the engine side of the firewall.  The

gascolator ends up in the same place as it is on my club 172M.  The first

certificate 601 in the US was a Check built plane with a 912S.

Jeff



--

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: carbon monoxide

Carlos,  

            Attached is a picture that shows the aluminum fuel line going from the Andair selector valve running to the firewall and down to a AN bulkhead fitting on the lower right.  The Gascolator is on the other side of the bulkhead fitting.  The standard ZAC quarter inch inside diameter synthetic rubber fuel lines come from each leading edge fuel tank through a filter and Facet pump next to the tanks to the selector valve.  Fuel pressure sensor, 3300 mechanical pump, and final filter are in front of the firewall.      

            Jeff  

     

Jeff, would you please describe the fuel lines routing you mentioned?

 Would you have a picture or diagram to share?

 Thanks in advance

 

 Carlos

 On 16/12/2007, Jeff <jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net (jeffrey_davidson(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:      

 Yes indeed.  The Zenith placement of the gascolator raises a lot of questions.  I put mine in the traditional place on the engine side of the firewall too.  I used the Check design for routing the lines from the LE tanks to the gascolator.  This was the setup in N601VA, the first certified 601.  

 Jeff Davidson

Panel_showing_fuel_line_small.jpg

Description:

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513 Time(s)

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: carbon monoxide

Just about everyone has a different idea on this topic. 

My thoughts are, I am comfortable with my rubber bellows packed full of ceramic wool. It takes 2400+ degrees f to degrade this material. I have seen several guys build some pretty nifty slider/shutters to seal up those pesky steering rod slots. If you get a fire hot enough to burn up my style of seal then it will weld up the slider/shutters till they won't operate. On landing the steering rods are gonna move up and down and left and right, with those sliders/shutters rigid there is a good posibility you will lose control and crash. The zenith design is somewhat problematic so each to their own when it comes to sealing up those slots. Remember, the steering rods are moving in two axis's, up and down and side to side.  I hope to never test my design because there is two things that scare the crap out of me. One is burning to death in a plane or racecar and the other is suffacating  while buried in an avalanche. As for you thoughts on the cowling, you are 100% correct, if the fire is that intense to start burning through the firewall and its thru connectors the cowling is going to be burning like Richard Pryor on crack running down the road.  YMMV. 

do not archive 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

I really like Larry's sandwich construct to close off the slots. However, I'm concerned that there will still not be an effective fire barrier. I haven't begun to design it yet, but I'm thinking combining Larry's sandwich with something like the eyeball fittings sold by Van's, Cat No. EYEBALL TTP-125 



http://tinyurl.com/2t6rwd 



to provide a better seal. 



I haven't looked at heater valve supplied with my FWF kit. But I'm considering the stainless steel heater valve sold by epm.av:



http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ssdiv.html



I also like their firewall penetration systems. 



Then, again, I wonder, does it make sense to work to really seal the fire wall when the cowl is epoxy-fiberglass composite, and the only thing between me and a fire coming out of the cowl is a Plexiglass canopy? I really don't know.



Any thoughts?



Terry

At 12:44 PM 12/15/2007 -0600, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bobby,

I put a sealed sandwich construct behind the slots that is held by two bolts.  An O-ring  grommet fits the steering rod and effectively seals the opening.

Not hard to make as an afterthought. Install should be the same.  See link,

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier.gif

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/steer-rod-air-barrier-2.gif

Put a little silicone seal around the edge toward the firewall and allow the slider with grommet to move up, down and a small amount sideways and you've got it.



I'd also suggest you extend your exhaust pipe(s) to one side and or behind the firewall.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: BobbyPaulk(at)comcast.net



to all

i have a 601 XL with the Jabiru 3300. during the summer i accumulated about 50 hrs and had no problem with carbon monoxide. when it got colder and i closed the NACA air vents my CO monitor turned black in less than 2 tenths of an hour. i got a headache and nauseated very quickly. when i noticed the monitor i opened the vents and landed immediately. when the vents are open the cabin area is pressurized and apparently keeps the CO out. When they are closed you can watch the monitor start turning darker in a very short time. has anyone noticed this and how can it be fixed. i have exhaust stains on the lower firewall and all along the belly. my steering rods to the nose wheel are sealed somewhat  but i am planning to make them air tight. this is a very dangerous situation and i need to find a solution fast 

please help,



Bobby Paulk

N131BP 	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail (almost) finished; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ 



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