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Experimental vs. ELSA

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

Oh Wise Ones,



  Can someone enlighten me to what the advantage(s) are of licensing a plane as ELSA, compared to the regular experimental catagory?  I must admit, I failed to recognize the difference.



  Currently, I am building a MkIII.  I have a plain old private pilot's license which allows me to fly my Cessna 172  (which is for sale in Trade a Plane).  As far as I cared, I was just going to license this MkIII as "experimental".  If I could license it as ELSA (it's probably too late for me now, anyway)

does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a "sport license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?



  I would appreciate some basic clarification.  Thanks



                   Mike Welch   Kolb MkIII

 

_________________________________________________________________

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!

http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

> does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a "sport 

license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

  I would appreciate some basic clarification.  Thanks



                   Mike Welch   Kolb MkIII


	




Mike W:



I am no expert on this, and do not follow the regs closely as pertains to 

it.



However, the way I understand the system, if you do not take your next 

scheduled Class III Medical and you have a Private ticket, you are 

automatically a Sport Pilot if you have a valid drivers license.  And, you 

can fly your experiemental MKIII as a Sport Pilot.



If you take the medical and flunk it, then you have to jump through all the 

hoops and prove to the FAA that you are medically fit to fly again, and you 

do not automatically become a Sport Pilot.



I asked my old country doc who gives me my flight physical, to let me know 

if he thinks I am not going to pass my next Class III, and I won't fill out 

the Med History and flunk it.  He told me not to worry, I wasn't going to 

flunk the Class III any time soon.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

Mike, not a "wise one"  (maybe a wise***)  but you already have a  

light sport license by default.

As long as you drive airplanes under 1320 lbs and no more than two  

seats you can dispense

with the useless flight physical.  Unfortunately you still have to  

comply with the biennial flight review.



The ELSA hocus pocus has something to do with using the plane for  

commercial purposes

which doesn't appear to be largely in Kolb territory.  Stick with  

experimental.

BB



On 14, Dec 2007, at 11:01 AM, Mike Welch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   





 Oh Wise Ones,



   Can someone enlighten me to what the advantage(s) are of  

 licensing a plane as ELSA, compared to the regular experimental  

 catagory?  I must admit, I failed to recognize the difference.



   Currently, I am building a MkIII.  I have a plain old private  

 pilot's license which allows me to fly my Cessna 172  (which is for  

 sale in Trade a Plane).  As far as I cared, I was just going to  

 license this MkIII as "experimental".  If I could license it as  

 ELSA (it's probably too late for me now, anyway)

 does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a  

 "sport license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?



   I would appreciate some basic clarification.  Thanks



                    Mike Welch   Kolb MkIII



 _________________________________________________________________

 Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!

 http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

At 11:01 AM 12/14/2007, Mike Welch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     Can someone enlighten me to what the advantage(s) are of licensing a 

 plane as ELSA, compared to the regular experimental catagory?... If I 

 could license it as ELSA (it's probably too late for me now, anyway)

does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a "sport 

license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?


	


If you're building it now, you can't license it as ELSA.  ELSA is only for 

"grandfathered" fat ultralights, and new approved LSA kits.  E-AB is your 

only option.  However, if it meets the LSA requirements (2 seats, weight, 

etc.), a sport pilot can fly it, as can a Private with no medical 

(exercising the privileges of a Sport Pilot).



-Dana

--

  Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope)

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

I'm not a expert on the regulations but I didn't renew my medical when it 

came due and I have since gotten a biannual flight review in a 172. Since I 

now fly only LSA "airplanes" I have no need to get a medical but can get one 

if I ever decide to fly anything else and I don't risk loosing everything if 

I have a bad medical. I still have a private pilot license so there is no 

paper work required but I'm not current (as a private Pilot) due to the lack 

of a medical. The private license gives me a bunch of advantages when flying 

a LSA. I can fly any LSA make and model without being type certified, I can 

fly into controlled airspace without an additional endorsement, I can fly 

the faster LSAs without additional ratings , and I can get my biannual in 

any LSA or most any GA aircraft I choose to fly.



About the only down side (that I can think of) of not having a medical is 

that I can't fly at night. It seems like that is a limitation of the LSA 

category.



This is the way I remember it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

As a card-carrying greybeard, I had concerns about blowing the Class  

II medical, but just passed it. The Doc said if she found anything  

disqualifying, she'd simply stop; and mark the form "airman did not  

finish exam". The forms are all numbered and she has to turn it in   

-- but at least you wouldn't have flunked the physical. Talk it over  

first!

On Dec 14, 2007, at 11:55 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a  

 "sport license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?

>

>  I would appreciate some basic clarification.  Thanks

>

>                   Mike Welch   Kolb MkIII

 Mike W:

 I am no expert on this, and do not follow the regs closely as  

 pertains to it.

 However, the way I understand the system, if you do not take your  

 next scheduled Class III Medical and you have a Private ticket, you  

 are automatically a Sport Pilot if you have a valid drivers  

 license.  And, you can fly your experiemental MKIII as a Sport Pilot.

 If you take the medical and flunk it, then you have to jump through  

 all the hoops and prove to the FAA that you are medically fit to  

 fly again, and you do not automatically become a Sport Pilot.

 I asked my old country doc who gives me my flight physical, to let  

 me know if he thinks I am not going to pass my next Class III, and  

 I won't fill out the Med History and flunk it.  He told me not to  

 worry, I wasn't going to flunk the Class III any time soon.

 Take care,

 john h

 mkIII

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA

Mike,



I'm not sure Matt's system allows attachment of .pdf files, but if it does, you can see the attached .pdf file that does a good job of explaining the differences among the ELSA, SLSA, and Exp. A/B rules for flight, training, maintenance etc. If Matt's system does not allow this type of attachment let me know and I'll send it to you directly. This should eliminate the speculation on the differences.

LSA_SP rules table.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

LSA_SP rules table.pdf

Filesize:

59.83 KB

Downloaded:

332 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA

 	  Dana wrote: 	
		  At 11:01 AM 12/14/2007, Mike Welch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     Can someone enlighten me to what the advantage(s) are of licensing a 

 plane as ELSA, compared to the regular experimental catagory?... If I 

 could license it as ELSA (it's probably too late for me now, anyway)

does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a "sport 

license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?



	


If you're building it now, you can't license it as ELSA.  ELSA is only for 

"grandfathered" fat ultralights, and new approved LSA kits.  E-AB is your 

only option.  However, if it meets the LSA requirements (2 seats, weight, 

etc.), a sport pilot can fly it, as can a Private with no medical 

(exercising the privileges of a Sport Pilot).



-Dana

--

  Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope) 	




E-LSA is for any Light Sport eligible aircraft including experimentals. If you built it, you can register it E-AB or E-LSA. E-AB allows the builder to inspect his own plane himself, whereas the E-LSA requires taking a 16- hour course to inspect your plane or any other E-LSA's that you own. The deadline for registering E-LSA is January 31st, 2008. The EAA has petitioned the FAA to extend the deadline to June 30th if you have your registration by the deadline. One advantage of E-LSA over E-AB is the plane may be worth more at the time of sale, because the buyer can inspect it without an A&P as E-AB would require. There is no deadline for E-AB registration, so if you miss the E-LSA deadline, you can register it E-AB.



Ralph B

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

bransom(at)ucdavis.edu
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

I was under the impression that "grandfathered" could include fat 

ultralights built (and registered, inspected) up through Jan 31, 2008.  

So in theory if an owner/builder completed an LSA plane today, mailed in 

the registration request forms today, and got inspected, certified 

before Jan 31, he'd have an ELSA plane.  Not a likely scenario given the 

short time remaining.  Experimental Amateur Built has no deadline and 

the plane could be LSA like or bigger, faster, slower, whatever. 

As to pro/con of E-AB vs E-LSA airplane (separate from the pilot rating) 

the differences are minor.  Either can get its annual inspection by the 

builder (with  Repairman's certificate for that airplane), but if not 

that person, the E-LSA can also be done by someone who has passed a 16 

hour course on LSAircraft inspection, or by A&P.  For the E-AB, if not 

builder/Repairman it must be an A&P.  So, long term and secondary 

owners, annual inspections might be a little cheaper/easier for the 

E-LSAircraft.  One other issue according to EAA is that a E-AB would 

likely see the normal 40 hour initial flight test area restriction, 

compared to something like a 5 hour for E-LSA, and there have been some 

grandfathered, previously flying ultralights getting 0 hour restriction 

based on their already having many flight hours.

-Ben

Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 11:01 AM 12/14/2007, Mike Welch wrote:

>   Can someone enlighten me to what the advantage(s) are of licensing 

> a plane as ELSA, compared to the regular experimental catagory?... If 

> I could license it as ELSA (it's probably too late for me now, anyway)

> does that mean I could let my pilot's license "transform" into a 

> "sport license" if I don't get a bi-annual physical?

 If you're building it now, you can't license it as ELSA.  ELSA is only 

 for "grandfathered" fat ultralights, and new approved LSA kits.  E-AB 

 is your only option.  However, if it meets the LSA requirements (2 

 seats, weight, etc.), a sport pilot can fly it, as can a Private with 

 no medical (exercising the privileges of a Sport Pilot).

 -Dana

 -- 

  Southern DOS: Y'all reckon? (Yep/Nope)

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA

Another option if you believe you might not pass a class 3 medical, but want to still fly E-AB is to register your unregistered aircraft as a E-AB glider "type".



As long as it is not being "type" approved you can call anything you built a glider.



You will however require a private glider license with self launch endorsement to fly it and would limit the resale value due to it requiring a private glider lic but Private Glider has a "Self declared" medical so you do not even need a drivers license.



Once it is registered AND COA'd you can not change it to another type.



Certainly a niche but perhaps might suit some pilots needs in odd situations.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

Ray



I'm don't understand why you would want to do this. The E-AB is a aircraft 

registration that includes most categories including the LSA category which 

doesn't require a medical. I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a 

medical.



Also the other day someone talked about 16 hour course that allows you to 

maintain your ELSA aircraft. The key word is "your" airplane. I think there 

is a longer course that allows you to work on other peoples ELSA & LSA with 

less than a A&E certification?



Do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

Richard

Now I'm confused. you write

" I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."

I didn't think this was legal. Did you just let the medical lapse?  

I've been told if you fail  to PASS a medical, you can't fly a thing,  

but if it expires you can still fly ELSA & gliders.

What's the straight scoop? I sure don't know, but I'd like to.

Russ Kinne

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

 	  Quote: 	
		   " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."

 I didn't think this was legal.  > Russ Kinne


	


MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other 

experimental homebuilts.  A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license. 

Correct me if I am thinking wrong.;



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

That's right I legally fly a E-AB that falls in the LSA category without a 

medical. I let my medical lapse but can if I choose to fly a GA aircraft 

again I can get a medical and use all my private pilot privileges again. I 

let my medical lapse about 18 months ago and got my biannual check ride in a 

C172 shortly after. Before the LSA rules went into effect my instructor 

would check to make sure my medical was up to date or at least scheduled. He 

did remind me I wasn't legal in anything other than a LSA airplane. Your 

right I were to fail a medical I would be all done flying. It's one less 

hoop I have to jump through and no chance of a fail.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA

When I was getting my Tailwheel endoresment in a PA-12 , there was a guy getting his SP in a J-3 ( he was doing his X-country at the time )

.

.

               Gotta Fly...

                             Mike & "Jaz" in MN

Building Buttercup

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buttercup-STOL/

.

.

.

.



 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   " I legally fly my E-AB Kolb MKIIIC without a medical."

 I didn't think this was legal.  > Russ Kinne



	


MKIII falls into the SP category, I believe, along with a lot of other 

experimental homebuilts.  A J3 is GA, but you can fly it with SP license. 

Correct me if I am thinking wrong.;



john h

mkIII

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

Re: Biennial 

What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the games/threads begin.

 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Experimental vs. ELSA

BN, find a less ignorant instructor.  Last time I knew, any time at least one guy sitting up front is legalanyone can fly the plane.  My kids used to fly my aeronca, the younger one did quite well.

If you can afford to charter a bizjet you can crank it around too. -hence the summer trade in T6 rides.

(frankly I wouldn't be comfortable stressing any of that ancient WWII machinery, no matter how pretty

the paint job)  T-33s and T-34s come to mind.

BB

On 17, Dec 2007, at 5:48 PM, Bob Noyer wrote:

[quote]Re: Biennial 

What do you say to an instructor (very new) that would not give a biennial because guy doesn't have a medical! Says a 172 isn't a Sport, and w/o medical that's all guy can fly. Catch 21.9? Let the games/threads begin.

 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive



 



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[b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Experimental vs. ELSA

BB is correct about the BFR in the sense that if there is only one pilot that is current and legal in the aircraft being used for the BFR, then that person must be the official PIC for that flight. Therefore, a Sport Pilot who has never set foot in anything other than an LSA type aircraft can legally get his/her BFR in a C-172 if the instructor agrees to be the PIC for that flight. Some CFIs will and others won't and there is no law that requires any particular CFI to do that if they don't want to. 



Of course this has nothing at all to do with the subject "Experimental vs. ELSA".

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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