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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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Pasted from another post because I didn't want to high-jack it. My question is the first, below.
**************
kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin, USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Sorry for the dumb question, but what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? I can't find a good source on this. My buddy is going to register his Challenger E-LSA. I've heard people say that you can't register anything E-LSA after this year? All the while I've not found any thing official that really spells it out. I assume that if you scratch build is has to be E-AB?
PS congrats on the milestone!
***************
rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest
New postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote
I'm sure there are those that could answer this better, but I'll jump
in and maybe save someone some typing.
E-AB = experimental amateur build. These planes fall into the FAA
experimental category and must be 51% build by builder, who by rule
must be an amateur. There is a debate about how much help can be
received by a professional helper. EAB can be anything from a plane
designed and build by the builder - a complete one-off to a Quick
Build Kit that is a virtually complete plane that pushes the 51%
definition pretty hard. The result might fly at 300MPH or 50MP and
hold one person or many. It may be powered by a chain saw engine or a
jet.
E-LSA Start with LSA. An LSA is a Light Sport Aircraft. 1320
pounds (600 kilo) max gross weight, 120knot max continuous cruise,
single engine, piston powered, no more than 2 seats and a low stall
speed, 45 knots I believe. To be an S-LSA, the plane must be build
to a set ASTM standards (note - not FAA standards) and the production
facility and procedures are inspected by the FAA. An E-LSA has all
the same restrictions, but is manufactured from a kit that meats the
definition of an LSA. (There are factory built E-LSA also, but I'm
fuzzy on why) The kit must not be modified from that supplied by the
manufacturer in any substantive way. The kit does not have to meet
the 51% rule requirement for an EAB.
E-LSA was dreamed up to get "fat ultral-lights" , those weighing more
than 255 lbs. registered with the FAA. That process ends the end of
January 2008, so time's about up. After that, there will be no more
new E-LSAs.
There are maintenance considerations. The builder of an EAB can do
anything he wants to the plane. If he sells it, the buyer must have
the original builder do the work, or an A&P. An E-LSA can be worked
on by anyone who takes a course (80 hours I think) in LSA
maintenance. This includes the builder - once it's registered as an
E-LSA he must have the maintenance cert' to work on the plane.
These are to completely different regulations, meant for different
purposes with different requirements. It's an extraordinary
coincidence that one can be registered as the other.
Ron
**************
skyguynca
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 62
New postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote
Small correction, Experimental Amateur Buit......anyone can work on it but
the Annual Condition Inspection must be done by a A&P or higher.
David Mikesell
---
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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I'm not sure why anyone would register their plane Light sport... If you register it as experimental only it can be flown under light sport if it qualifies or you can fly it as a regular aircraft if you have a valid medical and Lic.. If you register it as E-LSA it can only be flown under the LSA rules and can never be flown as Experimental i.e.at night etc. . Conversely if it is Lic. as Experimental it can be downgraded to LSA but it can ever be upgraded if it is LSA.
In a message dated 12/18/2007 9:12:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kmccune(at)somtel.net writes:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>
Pasted from another post because I didn't want to high-jack it. My question is the first, below.
**************
kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Wisconsin, USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Sorry for the dumb question, but what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? I can't find a good source on this. My buddy is going to register his Challenger E-LSA. I've heard people say that you can't register anything E-LSA after this year? All the while I've not found any thing official that really spells it out. I assume that if you scratch build is has to be E-AB?
PS congrats on the milestone!
***************
rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest
New postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote
I'm sure there are those that could answer this better, but I'll jump
in and maybe save someone some typing.
E-AB = experimental amateur build. These planes fall into the FAA
experimental category and must be 51% build by builder, who by rule
must be an amateur. There is a debate about how much help can be
received by a professional helper. EAB can be anything from a plane
designed and build by the builder - a complete one-off to a Quick
Build Kit that is a virtually complete plane that pushes the 51%
definition pretty hard. The result might fly at 300MPH or 50MP and
hold one person or many. It may be powered by a chain saw engine or a
jet.
E-LSA Start with LSA. An LSA is a Light Sport Aircraft. 1320
pounds (600 kilo) max gross weight, 120knot max continuous cruise,
single engine, piston powered, no more than 2 seats and a low stall
speed, 45 knots I believe. To be an S-LSA, the plane must be build
to a set ASTM standards (note - not FAA standards) and the production
facility and procedures are inspected by the FAA. An E-LSA has all
the same restrictions, but is manufactured from a kit that meats the
definition of an LSA. (There are factory built E-LSA also, but I'm
fuzzy on why) The kit must not be modified from that supplied by the
manufacturer in any substantive way. The kit does not have to meet
the 51% rule requirement for an EAB.
E-LSA was dreamed up to get "fat ultral-lights" , those weighing more
than 255 lbs. registered with the FAA. That process ends the end of
January 2008, so time's about up. After that, there will be no more
new E-LSAs.
There are maintenance considerations. The builder of an EAB can do
anything he wants to the plane. If he sells it, the buyer must have
the original builder do the work, or an A&P. An E-LSA can be worked
on by anyone who takes a course (80 hours I think) in LSA
maintenance. This includes the builder - once it's registered as an
E-LSA he must have the maintenance cert' to work on the plane.
These are to completely different regulations, meant for different
purposes with different requirements. It's an extraordinary
coincidence that one can be registered as the other.
Ron
**************
skyguynca
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 62
New postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: N601EL receives E-LSA certification! Reply with quote
Small correction, Experimental Amateur Buit......anyone can work on it but
the Annual Condition Inspection must be done by a A&P or higher.
David Mikesell
---
--------
Kevin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153003#153003
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[quote][b]
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psm(at)ATT.NET
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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Actually, this is not a true statement. LSA airplanes can be flown under all the same conditions as E-AB or indeed certified Part 23 airplanes. It is the Sport Pilots that are limited in operations rather than the airplanes. If an LSA is properly equipped, it can legally be flown at night, under IFR, above 10,00 feet and into all classes of airspace by an appropriately licensed pilot.
The choice of whether to have an E-LSA or E-AB certificate for a kit built plane goes away next month. That means it won't be an issue after that time. Starting in February, the only E-LSA certificates will be issued to planes which are essentially identical to S-LSA planes manufactured by the same company. I think of this kind of E-LSA as a bolt-together kit rather than the 51% style kit we are all used to. I have no idea how any modifications can be done to this style of plane, but it will probably be something like the STC process used today for certified planes. Perhaps the STC will be replaced by some sort of approval from the manufacturer of the plane rather than the FAA. I don't know of any such planes available on the market today, but as they become available (if they become available) some of these questions will get answered.
For me, the best way to deal with all of these regulatory issues is just to consider my kit built XL as a project destined for an E-AB certificate - just as it has always been.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 07:08 PM 12/18/2007, you wrote:
[quote]I'm not sure why anyone would register their plane Light sport... If you register it as experimental only it can be flown under light sport if it qualifies or you can fly it as a regular aircraft if you have a valid medical and Lic.. If you register it as E-LSA it can only be flown under the LSA rules and can never be flown as Experimental i.e.at night etc. . Conversely if it is Lic. as Experimental it can be downgraded to LSA but it can ever be upgraded if it is LSA.[b]
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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The limitations on night flight and flight in instrument conditions have nothing to do with the airplane, they are limitations on the sport pilot. As long as the airplane is properly equipped and the pilot is properly certificated, an LSA can be flown at night or in IMC.
It is true that an airplane that is certificated as LSA must always remain within the LSA limitations or it will no longer be legal. It is also true that an airplane that is certificated as E-AB but meets the limitations of LSA can be modified so that it no longer meets those limitations and still be legal for a private pilot fly. But once an airplane is modified to exceed the LSA limitations, it can never again be made legal to fly by a sport pilot under the LSA rules.
On Dec 18, 2007, at 10:08 PM, Afterfxllc(at)aol.com (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not sure why anyone would register their plane Light sport... If you register it as experimental only it can be flown under light sport if it qualifies or you can fly it as a regular aircraft if you have a valid medical and Lic.. If you register it as E-LSA it can only be flown under the LSA rules and can never be flown as Experimental i.e.at night etc. . Conversely if it is Lic. as Experimental it can be downgraded to LSA but it can ever be upgraded if it is LSA.
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
[quote][b]
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: Re: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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This is the part that has been confusing me, I thought I had a solid grasp on the rules.... until my buddy started talking about registering his E-LSA. He won't be done until spring so it was after the deadline. Now his challenger is a pretty straight forward build. A little riveting, but he basically assembles it, other then the fabric(yuck ;^) ) so maybe he still does have a choice?
Oh well I was mostly concerned about my situation anyway. It is a relief that others are find the topic a little gray though... just for that one hair of mine, holding onto sanity!
Kevin
| psm(at)ATT.NET wrote: |
The choice of whether to have an E-LSA or E-AB certificate for a kit built plane goes away next month. That means it won't be an issue after that time. Starting in February, the only E-LSA certificates will be issued to planes which are essentially identical to S-LSA planes manufactured by the same company. I think of this kind of E-LSA as a bolt-together kit rather than the 51% style kit we are all used to. I have no idea how any modifications can be done to this style of plane, but it will probably be something like the STC process used today for certified planes. Perhaps the STC will be replaced by some sort of approval from the manufacturer of the plane rather than the FAA. I don't know of any such planes available on the market today, but as they become available (if they become available) some of these questions will get answered.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
[b] |
:
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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dfmoeller
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: Re: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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The below statement isn't quite correct. Anyone can perform work on an E-AB at any time. Only the builder (there is a short course for E-AB builders that gives them the right to inspect there own product) or an A&P can do the annual condition inspection to maintain airworthiness.
Doug
[quote="kmccune"]Pasted from another post because I didn't want to high-jack it. My question is the first, below.
**************
There are maintenance considerations. The builder of an EAB can do
anything he wants to the plane. If he sells it, the buyer must have
the original builder do the work, or an A&P. An E-LSA can be worked
on by anyone who takes a course (80 hours I think) in LSA
maintenance. This includes the builder - once it's registered as an
E-LSA he must have the maintenance cert' to work on the plane.
These are to completely different regulations, meant for different
purposes with different requirements. It's an extraordinary
coincidence that one can be registered as the other.
Ron
**************
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mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: Re: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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>> An E-LSA can be worked on by anyone who takes a course (80 hours I think) in LSA maintenance. This includes the builder - once it's registered as an E-LSA he must have the maintenance cert' to work on the plane. <<
Some clarification here, an E-LSA can be worked on by anyone, just like an ExAB. The annual condition inspection can only be done be an A&P OR the owner once they have passed a 16 hour Repairman/Inspection course. These courses are specific to the category of aircraft: fixed wing/weight shift/powered parachute/gyro.
If an E-LSA is sold, the new owner can do the maintenance and condition inspection if they too have taken/passed the 16 hour course and have their local FSDO register their course certificate to their specific aircraft. So in this regard an E-LSA is a little more flexible in sold condition to another owner.
Lastly, an S-LSA can be changed to a E-LSA by the owner. They simply do the paperwork with the FAA/FSDO. There is no need to involve the original manufacturer or dealer.
Mike
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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§21.193 Experimental certificates: general.
* * * * *
(e) In the case of a light-sport aircraft assembled from a kit to
be certificated in accordance with §21.191 (i)(2), an applicant must
provide the following:(1) Evidence that an aircraft of the same make and model was
manufactured and assembled by the aircraft kit manufacturer and issued
a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
(2) The aircraft’s operating instructions.
(3) The aircraft’s maintenance and inspection procedures.
(4) The manufacturer’s statement of compliance for the aircraft
kit used in the aircraft assembly that meets §21.190 (c), except that
instead of meeting §21.190 (c)(7), the statement must identify assembly
instructions for the aircraft that meet an applicable consensus standard.
(5) The aircraft’s flight training supplement.
§21.190 Issue of a special airworthiness certificate for a light-sport
category aircraft.
(c) Manufacturer’s statement of compliance for light-sport
category aircraft. The manufacturer’s statement of compliance required in
paragraph (b)(1)(iii) of this section must––
(1) Identify the aircraft by make and model, serial number,
class,
date of manufacture, and consensus standard used;
(2) State that the aircraft meets the provisions of the identified
consensus standard;
(3) State that the aircraft conforms to the manufacturer’s design
data, using the manufacturer’s quality assurance system that meets the
identified consensus standard;
(4) State that the manufacturer will make available to any
interested person the following documents that meet the identified
consensus standard:
(i) The aircraft’s operating instructions.
(ii) The aircraft’s maintenance and inspection procedures.
(iii) The aircraft’s flight training supplement.
(5) State that the manufacturer will monitor and correct safetyof-
flight issues through the issuance of safety directives and a continued
airworthiness system that meets the identified consensus standard;
(6) State that at the request of the FAA, the manufacturer will
provide unrestricted access to its facilities; and
If he bought the airplane as a kit, he will not be able to certificate it as an E-LSA aircraft after January 31st 2008 unless the company he bought the kit from has built a an airplane of the same make and model and received an S-SLA certificate for it and will provide a statement of compliance for that particular aircraft. I see nothing on the Quad City Challenger web site that they intend to offer E-LSA compliant kits. Your friend will probably have to certificate his airplane as E-AB and prove he performed 51% of the building tasks.
On Dec 19, 2007, at 6:40 AM, kmccune wrote:
65.107
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>
This is the part that has been confusing me, I thought I had a solid grasp on the rules.... until my buddy started talking about registering his E-LSA. He won't be done until spring so it was after the deadline. Now his challenger is a pretty straight forward build. A little riveting, but he basically assembles it, other then the fabric(yuck ;^) ) so maybe he still does have a choice?
Oh well I was mostly concerned about my situation anyway. It is a relief that others are find the topic a little gray though... just for that one hair of mine, holding onto sanity!
Kevin
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: what IS the difference between E-SLA and E-AB? |
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§65.101 Eligibility requirements: General.
* * * * *
(b) This section does not apply to the issuance of a repairman
certificate (experimental aircraft builder) under §65.104 or to a repairman
certificate (light-sport aircraft) under §65.107.
§65.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations.
* * * * *
(c) This section does not apply to the holder of a repairman
certificate (light-sport aircraft) while that repairman is performing work
under that certificate.
Anyone can work on an E-AB or E-LSA, no repairman certificates of any kind are required for performing maintenance on experimental aircraft. There is no course required for the repairman certificate for an E-AB, it will be issued to the primary builder of the airplane. The holder of the E-AB repairman certificate can sign off the annual inspections of that aircraft, even after he sells it.
§65.107 Repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft): Eligibility,
privileges, and limits.
(b) The holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft)
with an inspection rating may perform the annual condition inspection on
a light-sport aircraft:
(1) That is owned by the holder;
(2) That has been issued an experimental certificate for
operating a light-sport aircraft under §21.191 (i) of this chapter; and
(3) That is in the same class of light-sport-aircraft for which the
holder has completed the training specified in paragraph (a)(2)(ii) of this
section.
The 16 hour course for the LSA-I repairman certificate only applies to the owner on an E-LSA. It allows the owner of an E-LSA to sign off the annual inspection of any E-LSA that he owns. It gives him no privileges of any kind for an S-LSA. At least a repairman certificate LSA with maintenance rating is required to perform maintenance and inspections on a S-LSA.
(c) The holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft)
with a maintenance rating may—
(1) Approve and return to service an aircraft that has been
issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under
§21.190 of this chapter, or any part thereof, after performing or inspecting
maintenance (to include the annual condition inspection and the 100-hour
inspection required by §91.327 of this chapter), preventive maintenance,
or an alteration (excluding a major repair or a major alteration on a
product produced under an FAA approval);
(2) Perform the annual condition inspection on a light-sport
aircraft that has been issued an experimental certificate for operating a
light-sport aircraft under §21.191 (i) of this chapter; and
(3) Only perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and an
alteration on a light-sport aircraft that is in the same class of light-sport
aircraft for which the holder has completed the training specified in
paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section. Before performing a major repair, the
holder must complete additional training acceptable to the FAA and
appropriate to the repair performed.
The length of the course for the maintenance rating depends on the type of LSA that it will be applied to. If the repairman intends to work on more than one type of LSA, he will be required to take a course for each type he intends to work on.
§65.107 Repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft): Eligibility,
privileges, and limits.
(3) A repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) with a
maintenance rating,
(i) Meet the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, and
(ii) Complete a training course acceptable to the FAA on maintaining the particular
class of light-sport aircraft for which you intend to exercise the privileges of this rating.
The training course must, at a minimum, provide the following number of hours of
instruction:
(A) For airplane class privileges--120-hours,
(B) For weight-shift control aircraft class privileges—104 hours,
(C) For powered parachute class privileges—104 hours,
(D) For lighter than air class privileges—80 hours,
(E) For glider class privileges—80 hours.
On Dec 19, 2007, at 7:42 AM, dfmoeller wrote:
| Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "dfmoeller" <dfmoeller(at)austin.rr.com (dfmoeller(at)austin.rr.com)>
The below statement isn't quite correct. Anyone can perform work on an E-AB at any time. Only the builder (there is a short course for E-AB builders that gives them the right to inspect there own product) or an A&P can do the annual condition inspection to maintain airworthiness.
Doug
[quote="kmccune"]Pasted from another post because I didn't want to high-jack it. My question is the first, below.
**************
There are maintenance considerations. The builder of an EAB can do
anything he wants to the plane. If he sells it, the buyer must have
the original builder do the work, or an A&P. An E-LSA can be worked
on by anyone who takes a course (80 hours I think) in LSA
maintenance. This includes the builder - once it's registered as an
E-LSA he must have the maintenance cert' to work on the plane.
These are to completely different regulations, meant for different
purposes with different requirements. It's an extraordinary
coincidence that one can be registered as the other.
Ron
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
[quote][b]
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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