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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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Tip of the day
I have just recovered my fuselage with Poly Fiber. That stuff is amazing! One thing I was VERY concerned about was the heat settings on the iron for shrinking the fabric. I bought a candy thermometer, and tried to "calibrate" the iron. It was NOT very accurate. I bounced around all over the place with marks. One mark would indicate 250. Did another temperature, made a new mark. Came back, and then the first mark said 300. Back and forth, back and forth! After messing with it for an hour, I said "NO stinking way am I going to shrink my fabric with these setting"!!!
I called a new friend I met up at the local airport, who is virtually finished building his FirestarII. (He's not much into computers, and is not a member of this list) I asked if he had something to get me on the right track. He says "oh yeah!" and then he lends me his hand-held infrared digital thermometer. I go home, quickly calibrate my iron, and commence shrinking. And this time, I had absolutely NO fear of destroying my hard work.
I found it best to keep the " temperature gun" in your other hand, while you iron. Every minute or so, check the surface of the iron to verify the proper heat temp, and you can just "fly" through the shrinking job, having the full confidence you are on the right track. You will see things like....the surface of the iron varies by as much as 50+ degrees, depending on where you point the lazer spot, and the iron loses about 25+ degrees, as you skim across the surface of the fabric. Here is an example of what I'm referring to on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Infrared-IR-Thermometer-w-Laser-Guide-Great-Tool-HVAC_W0QQitemZ220182537999QQihZ012QQcategoryZ50974QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Just in case you haven't done the Poly Fiber Fabric yet, if you heat the fabric with a "TOO HOT" iron, the fabric will shrink as much as possible, and then completely "relax" and sag, where it will not tighten again. And if that happens you're in deep doo doo. You must then removed the entire panel and start over. Having just used this this infrared temperature gauge gun, I can safely say this is something I am no longer afraid of doing. This item should be mandatory in the application of Poly Fiber fabric.
There ya go!! Your Poly Fiber tip for the day!! From lousy novice to expert, in only one hour:
Mike Welch Kolb MkIII with tight-ass fabric.
PS I bought one of these for me, for the remainer of my fabric shrinking needs! Plus, I can drive my cat nuts with the lazer dot.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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| Quote: | Just in case you haven't done the Poly Fiber Fabric yet, if you heat the
fabric with a "TOO HOT" iron, the fabric will shrink as much as possible,
and then completely "relax" and sag, where it will not tighten again. >
Mike Welch Kolb MkIII with tight-ass fabric.
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MikeW:
I think you may be mistaken on the above.
I don't think you can get the polyester dacron hot enough with the iron to
"melt" the fabric. That is the only way I could think of that would allow
the fabric to relax and sag permanently.
In sub-freezing weather the fabric will relax a little, one reason the
insure the fabric is shrunk to the max. Hotter weather encourages the
fabric to stay tight.
I shrink fabric on my Kolbs to the max. When I start to get tube
distortion, then I quit shrinking. I want the fabric tight.
john h
mkIII - May not be the way you all do it, but it works for me.
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jstewart(at)inebraska.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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Yes, you CAN get the fabric too hot and melt the fabric. Been there
and done that just a month ago on a Challenger wing. It made a loud 'pop'
when the fabric melted and let go. I had a hole the size of the iron.
Fortunately, it was in a small section that was boxed between ribs, leading
edge and leading edge wrap. It was easy to patch and you can't tell it was
ever there.
I had a cheapie iron that was all over the place with temps, even
though I was monitoring it with a digital laser thermometer. I now use a
higher quality iron that's more stable and check it more frequently.
J.D. Stewart
UltraFun AirSports, LLC
http://www.ultrafunairsports.com
Challenger e-mail list
http://challenger.inebraska.com
Titan e-mail list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Titanaircraft/
| Quote: |
> Just in case you haven't done the Poly Fiber Fabric yet,
if you heat
> the fabric with a "TOO HOT" iron, the fabric will shrink as
much as possible,
> and then completely "relax" and sag, where it will not
tighten again. >
> Mike Welch Kolb MkIII with tight-ass fabric.
MikeW:
I think you may be mistaken on the above.
I don't think you can get the polyester dacron hot enough
with the iron to "melt" the fabric. That is the only way I
could think of that would allow the fabric to relax and sag
permanently.
In sub-freezing weather the fabric will relax a little, one
reason the insure the fabric is shrunk to the max. Hotter
weather encourages the fabric to stay tight.
I shrink fabric on my Kolbs to the max. When I start to get
tube distortion, then I quit shrinking. I want the fabric tight.
john h
mkIII - May not be the way you all do it, but it works for me.
Photoshare, and much much more:
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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> Yes, you CAN get the fabric too hot and melt the fabric. >
JD:
My comments were referring to good, reliable equipment, although I probably
did not indicate it.
Anything is possible to screw up if you work at it hard enough.
A funny mistake I made very early on covering Kolbs, was to rid a piece of
tightened fabric of an unsightly thread. Lit the thread with a cigarette
lighter and promptly had a hole the size of a silver dollar to patch. ;-(
Vaguely, in the cob webs of my mind, I remember reading something in the old
Stitts Manual reference melting fabric. I believe it stated an iron set at
350 deg could be left sitting on a panel of polyester dacron without melting
it. Said it would leave a brown image of the iron plate, but would not harm
the fabric. I make a lot of mistakes, but have never left a hot iron on
fabric, walked off, and forgot it was there.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jb92563
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Poly Fiber 101 |
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I have not done a recover job, but I had a good number of patches to do on my Ultrastar and found that over shrinking on a rib to maximum tautness is not always the best idea, as in this case it resulted in buckled cracked rib.
Let me tell you that fixing that rib resulted in a bigger hole and an ugly repair compared to the nearly invisible repairs on flat portions of the wing and tail. Due mostly to the rib stitching i did to support the repaired rib better.
I found out that you need to use exactly just enough Poly-tak as even slightly more than enough will result in ugly surface protrusions that can not be sanded since its rubbery when dry.
You can smooth them with heat somewhat but I think a bit less Poly-Tak is definitely better than too much as the Poly-brush also serves to seal and stick down the patch and in fact after reading the PolyFiber system instructions it is apparent that all the coatings join/merge/bond well with each other and form a uniform well adhered coating.
Another reason not to substitute any of the coatings with other stuff.
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Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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At 08:39 AM 12/19/07 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
I found out that you need to use exactly just enough Poly-tak as even slightly more than enough will result in ugly surface protrusions that can not be sanded since its rubbery when dry.
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Ray,
If you have rough edge and/or surface after poly-tak ing, use a small brush and wet the surface with MEK and then rub it smooth with a gloved finger.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: Poly Fiber 101 |
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In a message dated 12/19/2007 11:41:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jb92563(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | | I found out that you need to use exactly just enough Poly-tak as even slightly more than enough will result in ugly surface protrusions that can not be sanded since its rubbery when dry. |
Hi Ray,
As I understand the Poly-Fiber instructions, the Poly-Tak is only supposed to be used as a glue to attach fabric to the airframe structure, while Poly-Brush is used as a glue to attach fabric to fabric (and it is also used to seal the fabric). As you found, the Poly-Tak is rubbery and can only be smoothed by heating, which can get very messy, sticking to your iron, etc. You could use a thick coating of the silver Poly-Spray to smooth out the rough area as it is sand-able. That's my limited knowledge on the subject.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
Do Not Archive
See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.
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Tom O'Hara
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Poly Fiber 101 |
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Just a comment from a "flyer not a builder" who knows nothing about Polyfiber or shrinking temperatures. That said I am familiar with"heating fabric" as I flew hot air for 26 years before going to a MkIII.
Balloons are constructed with either nylon or dacron depending upon manufacturer. Nylon yellow line is 250 with red line at 275. Dacron is 25 degrees higher. There are "tell tales" at the top which you check on pre-flighting. If the "red line tell tail" shows positive you MUST not fly and must take the aircraft to FAA inspection station and have tensile and porosity tests done prior to putting aircraft into service.
I have got to think that over temping Polycoat would also be detrimental to it's final strength.
Occasionally one can get some "special smoke" from the fabric when you hit it with direct burner flame when inflating. Read "special" as EXPENSIVE!! LOL
Note: One can fly 10 minutes in the hour in the yellow before having to take to the repair station.
Have a good holiday and thanks for all the knowledge that is passed through this board.
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