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jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  > Probably have too much incidence right wing, or not enough in the left wing.



Ailerons can be dropped a tad to correct the nose up pitch trim.



Call Kolb and get a new adjustable universal for the drag strut attachment. 

Then you can adjust incidence to correct your roll problem.



john h

mkIII 	




Thanks for the tip on the adjustable universal.  Would I get one for one side, or two for both sides?  If one, does it matter what side I put it on?



As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely.  But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed. 



If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off.  But that is just above stall speed.  I would rather cruise at 50 or 55.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

> As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is 

trimmed nicely.  But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are 

no longer reflexed.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off.  But that is just above 

 stall speed.  I would rather cruise at 50 or 55.



 --------

 Jim


	




Jim:



Only require one universal.  Doesn't matter which side you use it on, but if 

it were mine, I'd check the side with the least incidence and put the 

universal on the opposite side to match it up.  Homer designed a lot of 

incidence in the wings to get the airplane on and off the ground in a rather 

level pitch attitude.  This also makes the tail fly higher, increasing drag 

by dragging the tail boom through the air at an angle, rather than straight 

and level.  Wish I would go to the trouble to reduce incidence in my mkIII, 

but with the windshield and other stuff, would be more trouble than it would 

be worth.



Maybe you can adjust a little of the reflex out to bring the pitch trim back 

into line without losing a lot of cruise.  I would think so.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

[quote="jim"] 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

As for the flaperons, if I go to the middle flap position pitch is trimmed nicely.  But then I loose 3mph of cruise speed because the flaps are no longer reflexed. 



If I slow to 45 mph IAS, it will fly hands off.  But that is just above stall speed.  I would rather cruise at 50 or 55. 	




Jim,



Given some of the things you have posted, I can tell that you have your plane set up very badly.   John H was right about the 503 not causing your trim problems,  that is just not going to happen.  If  think about it for a minute, how much torque difference is there between the 503 and the 447, maybe 15 % , and there is NO torque difference when you are in normal cruise flight.  Using the English style U-Joint on the wing will fix your turning problem very well.



As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons is definitely the wrong way to do it.   From what you posted, you are trying to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail down.  The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance.  



I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the concept, they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly.  Lets say you need 10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level flight at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means.  First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while.   Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you, works very well...  Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine tune.  Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed for level flight.



The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing the ailerons.   Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of lift of the  wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift.  To produce the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down force with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment, so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the 10 pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail.  So you have created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead of the 10 needed at the tail.  To make matters worse, the wings have to create additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by the ailerons.   You have put  40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the 10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane 30 pounds heavier without adding any additional weight.  



To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing.   That explains your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your firefly even with a larger engine.  Fixing these probelms the correct way is not difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Jim,



I just re-read what you posted, and it seems you have a pitch up problem instead of pitch down.  The same thing still holds true, fix it at the tail, not on the wings.   A trim tab to pitch down is by far the best way to make the plane fly level.  Adjust the ailerons where they are most efficient, and don't raise your stall speed so much.  



If you look at properly rigged, certified airplanes, there is not a one on the planet that cruises around with reflexed ailerons, that is a very bad thing.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

I disagree with your analysis and conclusions.

Reflexing the ailerons changes the shape of the airfoil and moves the 

center of pressure of the airfoil forward. Results are the same as 

making the airplane more tail heavy. Conversely, lowering the ailerons 

(or the flaps) moves the center of pressure of the airfoil aft, making 

the airplane effectively more nose heavy. That is what changes the 

elevator trim pressure, rather than the ailerons pushing the tail up or 

down as if they were elevators. Obviously there are definite limits to 

how much the ailerons (or flaps) ought to be reflexed, as the point of 

diminishing returns happens very quickly, it doesn't take much reflex to 

make the airfoil inefficient.



I have played with this on my MKIII, as the flap handle mod allows the 

flaps to be adjusted up or down in 1/2" increments around the normal up 

position. Testing is easy, establish cruise speed at a given power 

setting and then ease the flaps up or down a 1/2" either way and see 

what happens to the speed vs. the stick pressure. Speed and rpm stay 

virtually constant, only the stick pressure changes.

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As far as the pitch trim problem, trying to correct it by adjusting the ailerons is definitely the wrong way to do it.   From what you posted, you are trying to use your ailerons like elevons, by reflexing them up and pushing the tail down.  The problem is, the Kolb is not a flying wing, and trying to rig it as such is very inefficient and causes very poor performance.  



 I'm going to use general round numbers here to make it easy to understand the concept, they will defiantly not be accurate for the firefly.  Lets say you need 10 pounds more down force to be produced by the elevator to maintain level flight at cruise with zero stick pressure, you can get that by several means.  First is constantly pulling on the stick, but wears your arm out after a while.   Second you can put a trim tab on the elevator which will hold it for you, works very well...  Or you can even adjust the front atach point of the horizonatl stab, also works very well, but its hard to do, and even harder to fine tune.  Each of these methods would produce the extra 10 pounds of downforce needed for level flight.



 The worst way you could put an extra 10 pounds downforce on the tail is by reflexing the ailerons.   Lets say your tail is 12 feet back from the center of lift of the  wing, and your ailerons are 3 feet behind the center of lift.  To produce the same tail down force, you will need to generate 4 times the down force with the ailerons then with the tail due to the shorter lever arm moment, so you are generating 40 pounds of downforce at the ailerons instead of the 10 pounds at the much more efficient level arm moment of the tail.  So you have created a lot more drag generating 30 pounds of additinal down force instead of the 10 needed at the tail.  To make matters worse, the wings have to create additional lift make up for this huge amount of downforce being generated by the ailerons.   You have put  40 pounds extra load on the wings instead of the 10 that should have been put on from the tail, so in effect made your plane 30 pounds heavier without adding any additional weight!

  .  



 To top things off, reflexed ailerons are called SPOILERONS, and they do exactly what their name says, they act to kill the lift from the wing.   That explains your very high stall speed, poor climb, and general bad performance of your firefly even with a larger engine.  Fixing these probelms the correct way is not difficult, and you will love they way your new airplane flys.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154048#154048

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Is the Universal designed to either increase or decrease incidence over the standard, or will it only decrease angle of incidence?  I am wondering if I should increase the angle of incidence on the port (left) side.  It would seem that might also increase the nose down pitch slightly. 



Last winter I replaced the boom tube on my Firefly to correct damage caused by the previous owner.  At that time I did elect to move the forward attach point on the horiz stab up about 3/4 inch.  This did reduce the down elevator required to hold straight and level, but not as much as I would like.  



It is my understanding that the Firefly is designed to have reflex flaps.  When the flaperons are up a few degrees from the neutral position in cruise, speed at a given power setting is increased.  The Maule (with the fat Clark Y airfoil) uses this technique to increase cruise speed 5mph.



I will definitely get a swivel for my Firefly.



Thanks and Merry Christmas to all.

Jim

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Good catch on the Maule, I looked into that today and they do reflex thier flaps slightly (only a few degrees) to increase cruise, but not to adjust flight trim.  But the maules are cruising at 140 MPH, there is a speed below which they say the reflex does not help, and definately for takeoff and landing.  I dont know if the firefly will ever get fast enough to need reflex flaps, anyways Kolb says to adjust the flaps on the MK III to flat with the bottom of the wing, and that is where it works best for my MK III Xtra.   I did experiment with reflexing flaps and ailerons quite a bit on my plane, but it just increased the stall speed, and did not fly as nice.  As Richard says, its easy to play with and see what results you like.



The adjustable wing brackets adjust both ways on the MK III,  up or down.  Decreasing the wing incidence will make your plane pitch down more.

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Hi Jim,



It just so happens I happen to have an extra English U joint if you want it.



I bought two for my Firestar II after I powder coated my cage and found out the wing incidence had changed.  Turns out I only need one U joint to trim out the plane.



I powder coated them black because thats the color the powder coating guy was running at the time. You can lightly sand the coating and paint to match your airframe.



Let me know what you would like to do.



Best Regards

Carlos Grageda

grageda(at)innw.net

English U-Joint.jpg

Description:

English ujoint installed

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jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Baron -- Thanks. I've sent an email off-list.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

Mike,



All of this has to do with your view point and frame of mind.  But if you 

look at the wing and power loading of light GA aircraft, you will find 

examples and data that can be applied to the Kolb designs.  My first flight 

was in my uncle's Aeronca Champ 7A, and my brother flew a Piper Cub C-3. 

Over the years about 10,000 Champs and 20,000 Cubs were produced. I consider 

these two as bench mark GA aircraft and the number of pilots who were 

trained in them must at least in the six figure region.



The gross weight power loading is:



Cub   18.75 lbs/hp

Champ 18.77 lbs/hp



The gross weight wing loading is:



Cub     6.84 lbs/sq ft

Champ   7.18 lbs/sq ft

FireFly 4.27 lbs/sq ft (500/117}



Dividing the FireFly gross weight by 18.76 indicates that the FireFly will 

match their power loading with only 26.7 hp.  In comparison anything below 

this may be considered under powered or substandard.  With 27 hp the FireFly 

will out climb the Champ or Cub by at least 38%.  This indicates that it is 

not necessarily power but wing loading that is the most important factor 

when it comes to an engine out.  Just ask any glider pilot. 



Fly smart and safe.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

At 06:11 PM 12/21/07 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



..........................
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  As far as engine, I would put a 503 on it, much more reliable an better 

than the 447.  As far as some that say its overpowered, those are guys that 
	


have small engines and try to convince themselves that they made the correct 

choice by having a small, sub standard engine...   Nothing says you need to 

fly around at high power all the time, but lots of power is a really great 

thing to have when you need it.  More power is also safer, will get you out 

of trouble when you need it, you will get off the ground quicker, and on 

takeoff you will also be a lot higher at the end of runway..  If the engine 

quits on takeoff, you will have several hundred feet more altitude then they 

poor guy with the small, very light engine.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

.............The only people I ever hear talk about some planes "having to 

much power" are pilots of doggy, sluggish airplanes that are trying to 
	


convince themselves that a lack of power is a good thing.

 	  Quote:

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but my airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very heavy). This is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. The trim tab on the left aileron is already full up. 



I expected the 503 to climb out at 1500 fpm but it's more like 1000 fpm from my home field (2500 msl). 



If I were to buy or build another Firefly, I would definitely use the 447. I think the only thing I would miss on the 503 is the oil injection. 



To be 103 legal in the Firefly, you are limited to 2-bladed wood prop,small wheels, no brakes, no or limited gages, 1 coat of paint, short windscreen. 



I have the short windscreen. It is very wind. I actually think it would be better to take it off completely. The short windshield seems to put all the turbulent air right at head. 



Mine has the gap seal removed (between wings). I am 6-01 and if it were there, I think my head wouldn't fit in the airplane. 	


Virtually all modern sailplanes have flap/aileron interconnects that result in the ailerons being at the same angle to the wing as the flaps.  When you move the ailerons, the flaps move right along with the ailerons  Negative flaps (whole flap/aileron system up) are used to change the wing camber to a more efficient shape for high speed flight.  I don't notice much trim change when going between positive and negative flaps, but do notice a somewhat reduced roll rate with negative flaps.  I don't believe trimming the ailerons up and down is a very efficient way to pitch trim a conventional aircraft.  It does work well with a flying wing.



Jim,

With your aircraft being tail heavy, you should first do a weight and balance to check that the CG is within the recommended range.  Aft CG out of the proper range is dangerous.  If the CG is not out of limits, the most efficient (from a drag standpoint) way to trim it is to raise the front of the horizontal stabilizer a bit.



You are degrading the efficiency of the wing by flying the aircraft without a gap cover.  Minimally, at least the top surface of the gap should be covered.  You might see that 1500 feet per minute rate of climb you expected with a gap cover in place.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

In a message dated 12/24/2007 7:11:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Kolb    says to adjust the flaps on the MK III to flat with the bottom of the    wing, 	


 

 Make sure that when you measure this parameter that you are holding  pressure under each aileron to take the slack out, Also

  

 Mike, keep in mind that the Kolb airfoil is not like most  airfoils. It is Homer's own Homebrewed shape. It has it's own personality,  which is what most Kolb Pilots appreciate.

 I found on my Firefly that very minor changes in the aileron give  significant trim change.  It is also different than your MkIIIX in that it  tends to have almost no trim change from Splash Off to Splash On.   

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

  [quote][b]

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

Dave,

You may need to adjust the alignment of your engine to compensate for 

the torque factor it produces - how's it do on pitch when your at 

cruise power, do you have to hold back stick or forward pressure - if 

you have had to add a major trim tag to your elevator to compensate 

for stick forces for nose up or nose heavy condition you might want 

to adjust the engines angle front to rear by shinning using large 

fender washers.  I recall which way it has to be changed for each, 

got to think on that a bit - had to do that on my Hawk.  Ya, I some 

what agree with you about the short windscreen - it seems like it 

directs it right at your face and throat area.  We applied silver to 

top and bottom of the wings and extra coat to top of all surfaces - 

you probably will not apply the top coat to the point of getting the 

glossy look if your trying to make the weight.

jerb

At 08:11 PM 12/25/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > I have a Firefly with a 503. I haven't flown one with a 447, but 

 my airplane always wants to pitch up and fly left (left wing very 

 heavy). This is because of the extra weight and torque of the 503. 

 The trim tab on the left aileron is already full up.

 >

 > I expected the 503 to climb out at 1500 fpm but it's more like 

 1000 fpm from my home field (2500 msl).

 >

 > If I were to buy or build another Firefly, I would definitely use 

 the 447. I think the only thing I would miss on the 503 is the oil injection.

 >

 > To be 103 legal in the Firefly, you are limited to 2-bladed wood 

 prop,small wheels, no brakes, no or limited gages, 1 coat of paint, 

 short windscreen.

 >

 > I have the short windscreen. It is very wind. I actually think it 

 would be better to take it off completely. The short windshield 

 seems to put all the turbulent air right at head.

 >

 > Mine has the gap seal removed (between wings). I am 6-01 and if 

 it were there, I think my head wouldn't fit in the airplane.

Virtually all modern sailplanes have flap/aileron interconnects that 

result in the ailerons being at the same angle to the wing as the 

flaps.  When you move the ailerons, the flaps move right along with 

the ailerons  Negative flaps (whole flap/aileron system up) are used 

to change the wing camber to a more efficient shape for high speed 

flight.  I don't notice much trim change when going between positive 

and negative flaps, but do notice a somewhat reduced roll rate with 

negative flaps.  I don't believe trimming the ailerons up and down 

is a very efficient way to pitch trim a conventional aircraft.  It 

does work well with a flying wing.

Jim,

With your aircraft being tail heavy, you should first do a weight 

and balance to check that the CG is within the recommended 

range.  Aft CG out of the proper range is dangerous.  If the CG is 

not out of limits, the most efficient (from a drag standpoint) way 

to trim it is to raise the front of the horizontal stabilizer a bit.

You are degrading the efficiency of the wing by flying the aircraft 

without a gap cover.  Minimally, at least the top surface of the gap 

should be covered.  You might see that 1500 feet per minute rate of 

climb you expected with a gap cover in place.

--------

Dave Bigelow

Kamuela, Hawaii

FS2, HKS 700E

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154269#154269

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

One thing I would do if I were to build another and that is reduce 

the cord of the flaps and ailerons - see comments made by Jack 

Hart.  It is a little sensitive on the roll control to the point 

where you almost fighting your self.



Regarding the wheels and tires on the FireFly see comment posted by 

Guy Morgan 02 Aug 2004 16:26, he covers what he did regarding the tires.

jerb

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Jet Pilot,



I disagree with your comment about reflexed ailerons/spoilerons being bad and requiring a lot of trim forces.



I own an HP-11 glider that has Flaps on 66% of the trailing edge that go from 90 degrees to -5 degrees reflexed and in a nicely designed wing/tail/control system you barely need any trim forces.



My stick in fact has no trim adjustment nor any trim tabs and the stick forces are negligable from 90 to -5....hard to imagine but true.



Its not even a flying tail so I am not sure how the designer accomplished the neutral forces other than harmonizing the wing/tail forces to a fine degree.



Its nice to go 40mph with 10 degree flaps and then accelerate to 90mph with -5 degree flaps with virtually no change in stick back pressure.



I will agree however that flaperons are not ideal in some flight modes as improper design or rigging may show its ugly head near the stall.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:20 am Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

| I own an HP-11 glider that has Flaps on 66% of the trailing edge 

that go from 90 degrees to -5 degrees reflexed and in a nicely 

designed wing/tail/control system you barely need any trim forces.

 | --------

| Ray

Ray/Gang:



Kolbs are not gliders.  When one adds a high thrust line pusher, or a 

low thrust line pusher (your Ultrastar for instance) the flight 

characteristics change.



My mkIII flies perfectly trimmed when the engine is off and I am 

gliding.  However, when I fire it up and bring up the power,  the high 

thrust line with lots of power pushing on that long lever, pushes the 

nose down.  Then I need some mechanical trim (spring loaded up 

elevator cable) to take the load off the stick.  I can also lighten 

the load with aileron and flap adjustments.  I also lowered the 

leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers.  I try to get the whole 

aircraft working most efficiently for me.



The Ultrastar was not affected much with the low pusher configuration. 

Probably because the high wing with the engine and pilot hanging under 

the wing, coupled with drag, helps compensate for the low thrust line. 

My Ultrastar acted much more like a tractor than the high thrust line 

Kolbs.



Someone mentioned changing thrust line of the engine.  I went through 

those experiements early on with my new 1992 mkIII.  Changing the 

engine left, right, up and down, had negligible effect on how the 

mkIII trimmed up.  I also changed the leading edge of the upper 

vertical stabilizer, with very little improvement.  Ended up putting 

the engine and vertical stab back in the stock, straight, original 

position.



Most of the ideas, experiments, mods, etc., that you all are bashing 

around now have been done in the past.  The way my mkIII is set up and 

flown today is the result of all those ideas.  Some worked, some 

didn't.



There are still ideas to be checked out.  Maybe one of these days I 

will get around to seeing if they will improve my mkIII or not.



Merry Xmas, Happy New Year,



john h

mkIII

Mobile, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

Jim.

for best results,



If you are flying a Jet, take the advise of the JetPilot.

If you are flying a glider, take the advise of the glider pilot.

If you are flying a Kolb, take the advise of "The Kolb Pilot".



The pitch trim effects of aileron/ flap adjustments on a slender high  

aspect glider wing do not have anywhere near the same effect as on a  

short low aspect Kolb wing.



Try adjusting your ailerons.  You'll be amazed at how easily a Kolb  

plane can be trimmed for pitch

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

Thanks for everybody's inputs.  All advice is appreciated.



Since it snowed 9 inches this morning, I probably won't be able to make any changes real soon.  I will install the adjustable U-joint ASAP and am confident it will correct my left-wing heavy problem.  After that, I will see where I am on the pitch issue. 



Thanks again.

Jim Dunn

N. Idaho

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: How do you like your FireFly?

In a message dated 12/26/2007 2:19:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ez(at)embarqmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

The    pitch trim effects of aileron/ flap adjustments on a slender high     

aspect glider wing do not have anywhere near the same effect as on a     

short low aspect Kolb wing.



Try adjusting your ailerons.     You'll be amazed at how easily a Kolb  

plane can be trimmed for    pitch



	


 

  

  

  

 BINGO

  

  

  

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not archive



See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: How do you like your FireFly?

 	  ez(at)embarqmail.com wrote: 	
		  Jim.

for best results,



If you are flying a Jet, take the advise of the JetPilot.

If you are flying a glider, take the advise of the glider pilot.

If you are flying a Kolb, take the advise of "The Kolb Pilot".



The pitch trim effects of aileron/ flap adjustments on a slender high  

aspect glider wing do not have anywhere near the same effect as on a  

short low aspect Kolb wing.



Try adjusting your ailerons.  You'll be amazed at how easily a Kolb  

plane can be trimmed for pitch 	




I happen to fly both a Kolb and Jets,  that "glider pilot" has been flying ultralights for about 25 years and also flys a Kolb.  Most importantly, your little "Jingle" while cute, does not mean its correct or even good advice.   I would take the advice of the most qualified and knowledgeable person I could find.  The few lines you posted might do well in selling something to soccer moms and the general population, but I sure as heck would not set up my plane based on some funny little post.



Yes, aileron angle does affect pitch trim on a Kolb, but that does not mean that it is a good way to set your pitch trim.  I have seen posts about using ailerons and flaps to adjust trim enough times that I experimented with this very thing on my MK-III with very poor results, it affected the trim a lot, but also raised my stall speed and made the plane fly poorly.   I ended up setting aileron and flaps back where Kolb says to put them, and fixed my pitch trim at the elevator.   Setting aileron and flap trim is the WRONG way to achieve proper pitch trim, just because you can do it does not mean you should.   When Jim talks about 45 being very close to stall speed on a firefly, and less than spectacular climbs with a 503, that tells me something is wrong with the way his plane is set up.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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