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PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
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See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [quote][b]
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rv10(at)sinkrate.com
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your first post you said this:
“I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.”
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/32” at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO’d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins). It really didn’t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don’t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
[quote] From: rv10(at)sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
.ExternalClass .EC_shape {;} .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass code {font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 {page:Section1;}
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your first post you said this:
“I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.”
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/32” at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO’d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins). It really didn’t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don’t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
[b]
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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two questions?
-Do you have QB wings or SB wings
On my SB the ribs bow as well and as far as the clecoing everything on (as I have not riveted yet) everything looks tight
If QB- call Van's and ask what's up..
-Are you using the "Oops rivets" second time around?
If not order some since it sounds like you are in need of them.
Pascal
[quote] ---
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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I have QB wings and everything on the top side is tight and all the skins on the bottom side inboard, which they did, are tight.
As for Opps rivets, the holes are not that large to use them, just the clecoes don't grip well, the holes are slightly enlarged and with any bowing, the cleoceos come out with any rivetting.
Looks and feel are two different things. Push the bays in in the center and see what happpens?
JOhn G.
[quote] Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:48:40 -0800
From: rv10builder(at)verizon.net
Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} two questions?
-Do you have QB wings or SB wings
On my SB the ribs bow as well and as far as the clecoing everything on (as I have not riveted yet) everything looks tight
If QB- call Van's and ask what's up..
-Are you using the "Oops rivets" second time around?
If not order some since it sounds like you are in need of them.
Pascal
[quote] ---
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rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to move them maybe ¼ inch in either direction to get the holes lined up at the J-channel (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet your combination of ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or the way you did it would have caused the same result.
I don’t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but here are a couple anyway…
<![if !supportLists]>1) <![endif]>Call Van’s and talk to them
<![if !supportLists]>2) <![endif]>Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins??? (ask Van’s).
<![if !supportLists]>3) <![endif]>Figure a way to “shrink” the excess skin. Add a jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Van’s).
<![if !supportLists]>4) <![endif]>How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are the worst offenders to #30.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
From: rv10(at)sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your first post you said this:
“I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.”
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/32” at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO’d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins). It really didn’t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don’t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
0123456789012345
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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Thanks Ben,
All great suggestions. Definetly want to stay away from #30 rivets on the skins..too much force used to pound those. The holes aren't that large!!! Maybe need to buy new clecoes or bend them for more gripping force.
Live with it is a possible solution, but I am a crazy dentist who is obscessed...it is likely to wake me up at weird times in the night when I should be sleeping.
Thanks guys.
JOhn
| Quote: | From: rv10(at)sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:24:44 -0800
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John,
Most of my ribs had a small amount of preload to them. I had to move them maybe ¼ inch in either direction to get the holes lined up at the J-channel (the one just forward of or just aft). I would bet your combination of ribs and bottom skins had just enough variance that riveting per plans or the way you did it would have caused the same result.
I don’t have any advice that would not be wild ass guesses but here are a couple anyway…
1) Call Van’s and talk to them
2) Maybe add some shim material between the ribs and skins??? (ask Van’s).
3) Figure a way to “shrink” the excess skin. Add a jchannel or some similar support??? (ask Van’s).
4) How severe is the oil canning? Possibly live with it?
I would definitely get some oops rivets and drill the holes that are the worst offenders to #30.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:16 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: oil canning revisited
Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago, but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel. Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted (completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the other bays. The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neighbor next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel, the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
From: rv10(at)sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one. Your first post you said this:
“I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.”
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There should be a small gap (1/32” at the most) between the leading edge or gas tank skins and the CLECO’d bottom skin. This gap just about completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10 minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from stamping out the skins). It really didn’t take that long. Attached is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and the gas tank. The space is less than a 64th I would say pretty much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don’t know what to tell you.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD 175hours
711 KT reserved
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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Being it is QB, it should be assumed they set your wings up correctly, versus something you did. I would call Van's and tell them working with their wing following their instructions you are receiving the oil canning and see what they suggest.
Good thing about QB there are a few of the same wings out there and it should be easier to figure out than having a Self Build wing were the builder may have done something unique.
You might still want to consider getting Oops rivets, if there are a few in a row, which it sounds like, and there isn't that much tightness using the clecoes you may have some looseness that may, just may, be an issue later, also by drilling the #30 hole you might be able to pull the skin a little.
Call Van's.
Pascal
[quote] ---
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
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Question John,
Is this really "oil canning" where the skin pops when it goes
back and forth, or is it just looseness in the skins, where
you get some flexing?
I did have oil canning near my stall warning access plate
after doing that, so I had to add some stiffners. Everywhere
else was fine though. As for doing things like access plates
for the stall warning and rudder trim, I think better results
will be had by countersinking those rivets instead of dimpling,
and then squeezing more softly. That way you're not inducing
a lot of stresses into the metal of those areas.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
| Quote: | Ben and Jim,
I would really like to get an idea of what is acceptable as far as the
oil canning is concerned in these bottom skin bays. I have 2 1/2 that
have canning.
Ben, I removed the material at the edge as you suggested a few days ago,
but i may have removed as much as 1/32 or almost 1/16 on the rework of
the first wing. The result was still the oil canning in the bay aft of
the spar, just outside of the outer most access panel and then again oil
canning on the second bay inboard of the outer most access panel.
Interestingly, I believe I removed as much material as I could have at
that seam and the seam closed up so tight a hair would not even be able
to get in it. The dimpled holes started to not line up. Maybe every hole
should not be clecoed and the riveting should be every other hole when
working forward????? Perhaps if every hole is clecoed and every hole
rivetted in in series it wraps the skin on too tight of a smaller arc
and then it means the gap at the LE will be too tight or non existent?????
Ben, do you remember whether your ribs were spring loaded causing them
to bow in a direction opposite their flange direction. I still think
this is my problem as on the second wing I am trying every combination
with the clecoes. The aft portion of the ribs have been rivetted
(completing step 11)and the bays are tight as a drum. Despite what order
I do the forward portion of the ribs with the clecoes, the skin in the
same bays as on the other wing still remain looser than the other bays.
The only thing i can attribute this to is the ribs bowing inward on
these two bays. The ribs are bowing toward one another and the neighbor
next to it is attributing to the mess by bowing in the same direction
instead of the opposite.
There could be something unique to the way my wing is before doing the
bottom skin, but the building manual sure makes the whole process seem
like a no brainer, but that is anything but what I am finding.
Sorry for carrying on with this issue but it is the most frustrating
part of the build which I have found. I conquered my baggage door and it
lines up flush with the fuse skin and that took a lot of carrying on to
get it right.
Needless to say, replacing the skin may not correct the problem and now
all the rib flange holes have been enlarged from the expanding rivets, I
know so because when I re-did the first wing forward of the J channel,
the clecoes did't hold too well.
Good Grief Charlie Brown.
All I want from Santa is two nice smooth bottom wings skins with no oil
canning in any of the bays.
I promise I have been a good boy!!!!
John G.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rv10(at)sinkrate.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: oil canning revisited
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:59:21 -0800
John,
I re-read many of the posts in the thread as well as your first one.
Your first post you said this:
|*“I will say that after I got the J channel rivetted and the aft
portions of the ribs completed, I rivetted the skin at the main
spar, as I was worried that if I kept working forward I would
prevent the skin from laying flat on the spar and it might get hung
up on the edge of the forward(L.E.) skin.”*|
I think this was your issue. You really want to work your way up
one rivet at a time. After completion of the aft half of the ribs
you should be able to cleco everything in its final place. There
should be a small gap (1/32” at the most) between the leading edge
or gas tank skins and the CLECO’d bottom skin. This gap just about
completely closes up when you rivet your way up a rib (If you work
upward one hole at a time). I would not bounce from one rib to the
next just complete one rib at a time. This helps push any excess
out towards the ends. If the skin edges are pressed together
tightly you did not remove enough material and risk oil canning.
Mine went together w/o any oil canning. I spent about 5 to 10
minutes on each bottom skin with a file removing the slightest bit
of material from the skin edge (mostly just the machining marks from
stamping out the skins). It really didn’t take that long. Attached
is a picture of the gap after riveting between the bottom skin and
the gas tank. The space is less than a 64^th I would say pretty
much all the way down the entire wing.
Is it correctable now??? I don’t know what to tell you.
-Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
*PILOTDDS(at)aol.com
*Sent:* Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:18 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* oil canning revisited
Was anybody succesful at improving or eliminating the bottom wing
skin oil canning by simply shaving the edge of the skin and
reriveting or do I need to replace the whole skin.I have two panels
with unacceptably loose skin.I reread the thread and was unclear
about others succeses.Thanks ---Jim 728DD
175hours
711 KT reserved
**
* *
*
*
|
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ninepapa(at)bendbroadband
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the work bench while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
[quote] ---
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make a difference.
The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the root and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar and it did not make any difference in the skin.
Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's getting too crazy.
I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center of the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes back out when released.
Like a pillow.
JOhn
[quote] From: ninepapa(at)bendbroadband.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the work bench while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
[quote] ---
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
Just as a data point, I laid mine flat on a bench when I did them.
Now, on to "oil canning". It isn't oil-canning if the skin is just
flexible. Oil canning would be when it pops in, and pops out, and
makes the popping nose like when you squeeze the bottom of an oil
can. There's so much stress forcing it one way or the other that
there's no neutral. It makes that popping noise, and it will either
be concave, or convex, but it doesn't want to lay flat. If this
doesn't describe your situation, then I'm thinking perhaps you're
making a mountain out of a molehill and might want to just keep
moving on....or better yet, grab a nearby tech counselor and ask
for a learning experience. The skin on the bottom of the wings
will not be as stiff and taught as a fiberglass wing that you
might be used to. I've flown planes that you could watch the aluminum
on the top or bottom (if it's a high-wing), wiggle a bit in
turbulence, and this is just the way it is. So, before you
stress yourself to death and keep drilling and re-pounding rivets,
it sounds like you may want to get a diagnosis by someone who
can see first-hand the symptom. If it's truly oil-canning, then
you'll want to deal with it. If it's not, it may be perfectly
acceptable/normal/average.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
[quote] Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make
a difference.
The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the root
and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar
and it did not make any difference in the skin.
Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's
getting too crazy.
I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center of
the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes back
out when released.
Like a pillow.
JOhn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ninepapa(at)bendbroadband.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
John
One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the
work bench while riveting?
Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
Could make a difference in the oil canning.
John H.
---
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
It's oil canning, but it doesn't make too loud a popping noise, but I don't like it anyway.
Thanks all for the help and all have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.
[quote] Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:57:18 -0600
From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>
Just as a data point, I laid mine flat on a bench when I did them.
Now, on to "oil canning". It isn't oil-canning if the skin is just
flexible. Oil canning would be when it pops in, and pops out, and
makes the popping nose like when you squeeze the bottom of an oil
can. There's so much stress forcing it one way or the other that
there's no neutral. It makes that popping noise, and it will either
be concave, or convex, but it doesn't want to lay flat. If this
doesn't describe your situation, then I'm thinking perhaps you're
making a mountain out of a molehill and might want to just keep
moving on....or better yet, grab a nearby tech counselor and ask
for a learning experience. The skin on the bottom of the wings
will not be as stiff and taught as a fiberglass wing that you
might be used to. I've flown planes that you could watch the aluminum
on the top or bottom (if it's a high-wing), wiggle a bit in
turbulence, and this is just the way it is. So, before you
stress yourself to death and keep drilling and re-pounding rivets,
it sounds like you may want to get a diagnosis by someone who
can see first-hand the symptom. If it's truly oil-canning, then
you'll want to deal with it. If it's not, it may be perfectly
acceptable/normal/average.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Gonzalez wrote:
> Very good question and you are the first to ask, and it would/could make
> a difference.
>
> The wings however, are in a craddle, braced at the main spar at the root
> and supported at the leading edge at the end of the wing.
> I have tried lifting the outside of the wing by lifting at the main spar
> and it did not make any difference in the skin.
>
> Thought about hanging it from the flap and aileron brackets, but that's
> getting too crazy.
>
> I call it oil canning because it is loose skin that is in the center of
> the bay and when you push on it it depresses inward and then flexes back
> out when released.
> Like a pillow.
>
> JOhn
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: ninepapa(at)bendbroadband.com
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:51:06 -0800
>
> John
>
> One additional question, are your wings laying upside down on the
> work bench while riveting?
> Or are they trailing edge up in the wing cradle?
> Could make a difference in the oil canning.
>
> John H.
>
> ---
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ninepapa(at)bendbroadband
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
John
If you can, you might try setting the wing on two saw horses, bottom side down like glider people do sometimes.
See how it acts when you push on the bottom skin.
John H.
[quote] ---
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: Re: oil canning revisited |
|
|
Sorry for the segue, but I couldn't help noticing you mentioned the clecos falling out. I ran into that problem on by tailcone and began to notice a pattern. The ones I got from Avery hold fast in final drilled holes, but the ones I bought at Aircraft Spruce tend to pop out every time I hit the rivet gun. It took a while to find all the culprits but I've isolated them into "loose" and "tight." The loose ones are good for pre-drilled holes while the tight ones I save for final riveting.
I appreciate the dialogue on the oil canning since I'll be doing those skins on my QB next week. Currently all wired up and doing the flap & aileron fairings.
John
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_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
Thanks, I remember your post from a few weeks ago, but I didn't remember which supplier had the better clecoes. Now I will remember. BTW mine are a mix aswell.
Here is what has developed since Monday.
I put in my AOA tubing on the other wing and was able to finish tonight the riveting of Step 11, all the ribs but not the Main spar.
Here is what I have learned by this second wing.
Wish my rivetting on the first wing was as good as on this one. No dents to this point. NONE!
Also a big issue I have learned...It had been a while since I rivetted, my excuss for the first wing. On the first wing I believe I was not equallying out the rivet gun pressure enough with the bucking bar pressure, so ultimately, some of my rivet lines had a slight depression to them. I BELIEVE that this will cause a tighter arc pattern to the skin than is supposed to be and the skin in the middle of the bays wants to pillow out.
Today I really got my rivetting down and turned the volume down, the pressure the same, and after the first few gentle hit of the set, i pulled or pushed out the bucking bar out so the skin would not collapse in. My rivetting looks really good...almost as good as the QB results or back rivetting.
So to this point without the rivets in on the main spar the skin is much tighter, but a flex is still in the same bay, but absolutely better than the first wing. Will see what happens when the main spar is rivetted, and when the entire skin is finished.
Again, I did remove the material from the edge and the without any skin manipulation(clecoes are in on the main spar) the rivets don't go into their holes in the main spar because the skin is more forward than the holes in the spar. A slight wiggle with the ice pick allows the rivets to go in fine.
My rivet pattern was going outboard and inboard with each rivet that I went forward. Meaning all horizontal rows were complete before moving forward toward the LE skin. This is the way the Jchannel was rivetted.
I did not complete one vertical row at a time.
I will finish the spar rivetting by starting in the middle of the bay, basically the same location I started on the rear spar and move outward and inward at the same time.
It is amazing that some builders had no issues at all with this. To me it seems like walking across a mine field.
Haven't decided what I will do with the first wing, either nothing, or do an access panel with slightly offset holes in the re inforcement plate so the skin dimple get pulled inward toward a center point and if this does not work I will cut large holes in each bay to better access each shop head for better removal of all rivets and redo the skin(Without dents) the second time. Oh, guess I'll need to sort some clecoes of buy some more from Avery.
Merry Christmas, back to teeth work tomorrow.
John G
| Quote: | Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
From: johngoodman(at)earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:43:45 -0800
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
--> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Sorry for the segue, but I couldn't help noticing you mentioned the clecos falling out. I ran into that problem on by tailcone and began to notice a pattern. The ones I got from Avery hold fast in final drilled holes, but the ones I bought at Aircraft Spruce tend to pop out every time I hit the rivet gun. It took a while to find all the culprits but I've isolated them into "loose" and "tight." The loose ones are good for pre-drilled holes while the tight ones I save for final riveting.
I appreciate the dialogue on the oil canning since I'll be doing those skins on my QB next week. Currently all wired up and doing the flap & aileron fairings.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154170#154170
>=====
|
[quote][b]
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coop85(at)cableone.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
Here’s a slight divergence from the thread but a chance to reflect on how far the kits have come. When I was building my RV-6 (no prepunch fuselage, other parts only the outer skin was prepunched) the big discussion on preventing oil canning involved heating the skin prior to fitting the skin and drilling to the ribs (which you marked to help get the holes on center). The theory was the heated, and therefore expanded skin would shrink slightly and create a tighter fit. Never tried it myself due to the huge amount of extra effort for a one man shop.
No help to your current state John, but sometimes I have to remind myself how much better the QB RV-10 was compared to previous ventures. When I was working on the RV-7 I felt like I was cheating since the kit was so much better, on the -10 I felt like I should be arrested for getting away with so much less work! Unfortunately it’s still a lot of work but the rewards are magnificent!
I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and that Santa was good to you,
Marcus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: oil canning revisited
Thanks, I remember your post from a few weeks ago, but I didn't remember which supplier had the better clecoes. Now I will remember. BTW mine are a mix aswell.
Here is what has developed since Monday.
I put in my AOA tubing on the other wing and was able to finish tonight the riveting of Step 11, all the ribs but not the Main spar.
Here is what I have learned by this second wing.
Wish my rivetting on the first wing was as good as on this one. No dents to this point. NONE!
Also a big issue I have learned...It had been a while since I rivetted, my excuss for the first wing. On the first wing I believe I was not equallying out the rivet gun pressure enough with the bucking bar pressure, so ultimately, some of my rivet lines had a slight depression to them. I BELIEVE that this will cause a tighter arc pattern to the skin than is supposed to be and the skin in the middle of the bays wants to pillow out.
Today I really got my rivetting down and turned the volume down, the pressure the same, and after the first few gentle hit of the set, i pulled or pushed out the bucking bar out so the skin would not collapse in. My rivetting looks really good...almost as good as the QB results or back rivetting.
So to this point without the rivets in on the main spar the skin is much tighter, but a flex is still in the same bay, but absolutely better than the first wing. Will see what happens when the main spar is rivetted, and when the entire skin is finished.
Again, I did remove the material from the edge and the without any skin manipulation(clecoes are in on the main spar) the rivets don't go into their holes in the main spar because the skin is more forward than the holes in the spar. A slight wiggle with the ice pick allows the rivets to go in fine.
My rivet pattern was going outboard and inboard with each rivet that I went forward. Meaning all horizontal rows were complete before moving forward toward the LE skin. This is the way the Jchannel was rivetted.
I did not complete one vertical row at a time.
I will finish the spar rivetting by starting in the middle of the bay, basically the same location I started on the rear spar and move outward and inward at the same time.
It is amazing that some builders had no issues at all with this. To me it seems like walking across a mine field.
Haven't decided what I will do with the first wing, either nothing, or do an access panel with slightly offset holes in the re inforcement plate so the skin dimple get pulled inward toward a center point and if this does not work I will cut large holes in each bay to better access each shop head for better removal of all rivets and redo the skin(Without dents) the second time. Oh, guess I'll need to sort some clecoes of buy some more from Avery.
Merry Christmas, back to teeth work tomorrow.
John G
> Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
> From: johngoodman(at)earthlink.net
> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:43:45 -0800
> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
>
> Sorry for the segue, but I couldn't help noticing you mentioned the clecos falling out. I ran into that problem on by tailcone and began to notice a pattern. The ones I got from Avery hold fast in final drilled holes, but the ones I bought at Aircraft Spruce tend to pop out every time I hit the rivet gun. It took a while to find all the culprits but I've isolated them into "loose" and "tight." The loose ones are good for pre-drilled holes while the tight ones I save for final riveting.
>
> I appreciate the dialogue on the oil canning since I'll be doing those skins on my QB next week. Currently all wired up and doing the flap & aileron fairings.
>
> John
>
> --------
> #40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
> N711JG reserved
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154170#154170
>
>
>
>
>=====
>
>
> | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
[quote][b]
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: oil canning revisited |
|
|
No argument from me, I do not believe I would build a metal airplane without prepunched parts...that's nuts, IMO. No complaint about this kit or the QB, my issue is more of a mental exercise in how this is happening and how to best correct for it. I believe there will just be a certain amount of acceptance required on my part and an understanding that although the kit and their parts are designed and for the most part fabricated by computer, there is enough chance for things to be assembled ever so slightly differently so that not everyones results will be the same even if done absolutely perfectly.
That is what I am getting on the second wing, basically, I can't do it any better than it is being done with what I was given. What I was given was beautiful, it is a give and take.
JOhn
Do Not Archive
[quote] From: coop85(at)cableone.net
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV10-List: Re: oil canning revisited
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:09:52 -0600
.ExternalClass .EC_shape {;} .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle19 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 {page:Section1;}
Here’s a slight divergence from the thread but a chance to reflect on how far the kits have come. When I was building my RV-6 (no prepunch fuselage, other parts only the outer skin was prepunched) the big discussion on preventing oil canning involved heating the skin prior to fitting the skin and drilling to the ribs (which you marked to help get the holes on center). The theory was the heated, and therefore expanded skin would shrink slightly and create a tighter fit. Never tried it myself due to the huge amount of extra effort for a one man shop.
No help to your current state John, but sometimes I have to remind myself how much better the QB RV-10 was compared to previous ventures. When I was working on the RV-7 I felt like I was cheating since the kit was so much better, on the -10 I felt like I should be arrested for getting away with so much less work! Unfortunately it’s still a lot of work but the rewards are magnificent!
I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and that Santa was good to you,
Marcus
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Gonzalez
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 11:40 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: oil canning revisited
Thanks, I remember your post from a few weeks ago, but I didn't remember which supplier had the better clecoes. Now I will remember. BTW mine are a mix aswell.
Here is what has developed since Monday.
I put in my AOA tubing on the other wing and was able to finish tonight the riveting of Step 11, all the ribs but not the Main spar.
Here is what I have learned by this second wing.
Wish my rivetting on the first wing was as good as on this one. No dents to this point. NONE!
Also a big issue I have learned...It had been a while since I rivetted, my excuss for the first wing. On the first wing I believe I was not equallying out the rivet gun pressure enough with the bucking bar pressure, so ultimately, some of my rivet lines had a slight depression to them. I BELIEVE that this will cause a tighter arc pattern to the skin than is supposed to be and the skin in the middle of the bays wants to pillow out.
Today I really got my rivetting down and turned the volume down, the pressure the same, and after the first few gentle hit of the set, i pulled or pushed out the bucking bar out so the skin would not collapse in. My rivetting looks really good...almost as good as the QB results or back rivetting.
So to this point without the rivets in on the main spar the skin is much tighter, but a flex is still in the same bay, but absolutely better than the first wing. Will see what happens when the main spar is rivetted, and when the entire skin is finished.
Again, I did remove the material from the edge and the without any skin manipulation(clecoes are in on the main spar) the rivets don't go into their holes in the main spar because the skin is more forward than the holes in the spar. A slight wiggle with the ice pick allows the rivets to go in fine.
My rivet pattern was going outboard and inboard with each rivet that I went forward. Meaning all horizontal rows were complete before moving forward toward the LE skin. This is the way the Jchannel was rivetted.
I did not complete one vertical row at a time.
I will finish the spar rivetting by starting in the middle of the bay, basically the same location I started on the rear spar and move outward and inward at the same time.
It is amazing that some builders had no issues at all with this. To me it seems like walking across a mine field.
Haven't decided what I will do with the first wing, either nothing, or do an access panel with slightly offset holes in the re inforcement plate so the skin dimple get pulled inward toward a center point and if this does not work I will cut large holes in each bay to better access each shop head for better removal of all rivets and redo the skin(Without dents) the second time. Oh, guess I'll need to sort some clecoes of buy some more from Avery.
Merry Christmas, back to teeth work tomorrow.
John G
| Quote: | Subject: Re: oil canning revisited
From: johngoodman(at)earthlink.net
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:43:45 -0800
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
--> RV10-List message posted by: "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net>
Sorry for the segue, but I couldn't help noticing you mentioned the clecos falling out. I ran into that problem on by tailcone and began to notice a pattern. The ones I got from Avery hold fast in final drilled holes, but the ones I bought at Aircraft Spruce tend to pop out every time I hit the rivet gun. It took a while to find all the culprits but I've isolated them into "loose" and "tight." The loose ones are good for pre-drilled holes while the tight ones I save for final riveting.
I appreciate the dialogue on the oil canning since I'll be doing those skins on my QB next week. Currently all wired up and doing the flap & aileron fairings.
John
--------
#40572 QB Wings, QB Fuse arrived
N711JG reserved
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=154170#154170
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