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Europaprecision?

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hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

Fred:



I find it  contrary to the general consensus that you are struck by the

high degree of precision built into the kit.   I was struck by what I

considered that each and every model seems to me to be custom built.  Many

of the questions on the forum seek the solution to something not fitting or

lining up right.  My aircraft flies true but that is only because of the

many hours making fixtures and jigs to line  things up or to purposely make

something slightly misaligned so that the left of  the  aircraft looks

exactly like the right.  Having a mill and lathe in the  garage was a

godsend. I had developed a high degree of patience and manual dexterity in

crafting the plane.  However now that I am older I seem to have  lost alot

of the patience.



Old business:  I have tore into the top of the cockpit seatback to get at

the gas tank to pull it out because of the crack. Once the top was off what

was  present was slightly disturbing.  We have our extra support pads to

keep the tank from pooching into our spar cavity and interfering with the

aileron belcrank rod.  Every interior surface looks like that.  The top of

the tank is vavy from expansion and the back surface exhibits the same

condition.  In all cases flat surfaces of the tank are stressed and buckled

because of  the expansion.  You just don't see it unless you take the lid

off.  

I made note to a motorhead friend of mine at work that my airplane had

gotten a crack in its gas tank.  He knows  nothing of Europas or of

homebuilt aircraft.  He asked me if I had  a rotomolded polyethelyne tank. 

I said yes.  He asked me if I left the tank dry for awhile.  Yes again.  He

noted  to me that there is a kit car company out there that makes custom

tanks as these for cars.  The company specifically states that if you mount

the tank by fiberglassing it in and let it dry out.  It will crack and they

assume no responsibility.   You are supposed to buy their mounting kit and

strap it in.  



In any case I don't believe I  am going to put my replacement polyethelyne

tank back in the aircraft.  I am going to pursue making an aluminum

(aluminium for you other guys) tank up with AN fittings.



Also I also have a  pair of reamers available 16 and 16.5 mm, one for the

rough cut and  one for the  fine cut.  I have cut them short and machined a

hex on each end.  That way you  don't have to pull the endine way out and

you can put a ratchet on the end  to run them home.



Check some photos of the  tank and the crack attached.



Steve Hagar

A 143

Mesa AZ

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 12/28/2007 5:57:40 PM

 Subject: Europaprecision



 



 Hi Guys...and Happy New Year



  From time to time in the course of building I am struck by the high 

 degree of precision built into our kits. While I salute the company for 

 its high quality precision parts, I'm finding that occasionally I 

 haven't done my part (at least the first time around) in ensuring that 

 the end result measures up to the standard required for the eventual 

 hours of trouble-free flying which so many of you (sigh) are already 

 enjoying.



 For those of you who are still a'buildin' the monowheel and have yet to 

 assemble the main landing gear, here's a pitfall I stepped into which 

 is easily avoided...with just a tad of forethought:



 When installing the bushes in the shock absorber bottom plate (now 

 that's a bit of heavy iron!) LG07, do NOT loctite them in until AFTER 

 you have ensured that you have smooth rotation on the pin LG04. I 

 failed to do this and found that my bushes were mis-aligned just enough 

 to cause the pin to bind...if left in this way, there's no doubt in my 

 mind that the bushes wouldn't be able to do their job and the result 

 would be wear in the holes for the pin in the swing arm LG02 and LG02A 

 which I fear would shortly introduce all kinds of slop.



 As a consequence of my mistake, I have attempted to use heat to loosen 

 the loctite bond to no avail...even w/ a propane torch (while taking 

 care to not mar my nicely powdercoated LG07). Attempts to remove the 

 bushes are complicated by the soft nature of the bearings.



 Sooooo....I've just received 2 new bushings from mcmaster-carr (P/N 

 6391K178) and my plan is to drill out the offending bushes and 'ave 

 another go.



 This time I'll do a trial assembly of all the parts which the pin LG04 

 passes through before indulging w/ the loctite.



 Old Pennsylvania Dutch saying: Why do I get so late smarter?



 Fred

 A194

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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Europaprecision?

On Sunday, Dec 30, 2007, at 11:33 US/Pacific, Steve Hagar wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have tore into the top of the cockpit seatback to get at

 the gas tank to pull it out because of the crack. Once the top was off 

 what

 was  present was slightly disturbing.  We have our extra support pads 

 to

 keep the tank from pooching into our spar cavity and interfering with 

 the

 aileron belcrank rod.  Every interior surface looks like that.  The 

 top of

 the tank is vavy from expansion and the back surface exhibits the same

 condition.  In all cases flat surfaces of the tank are stressed and 

 buckled

 because of  the expansion.  You just don't see it unless you take the 

 lid

 off.


	


Steve,



Thanks for sharing your frustrations w/ your fuel tank and passing on 

your thoughts on the issue of cracking....sobering thoughts and pixs 

indeed. A couple of questions:



- When you say "extra support pads", do you mean that you installed 

some pads in addition to those called for?...If so, can you describe 

them?



- At some point, I seem to recall that the supplied tanks were changed 

in some way to eliminate or reduce expansion. When did you purchase 

your original tank? Do you know if you have one of the earlier or later 

versions of the tank?



- Do you attribute your tank's failure (in part) to any extreme 

temperature conditions which it may have been exposed to in your part 

of the world?



To Anyone: Would you be willing to share any protocols you follow which 

you believe will guard against tank shrinkage and stress cracking?



 	  Quote: 	
		    I made note to a motorhead friend of mine at work that my airplane had

 gotten a crack in its gas tank.  He knows  nothing of Europas or of

 homebuilt aircraft.  He asked me if I had  a rotomolded polyethelyne 

 tank.

 I said yes.  He asked me if I left the tank dry for awhile.  Yes 

 again.  He

 noted  to me that there is a kit car company out there that makes 

 custom

 tanks as these for cars.  The company specifically states that if you 

 mount

 the tank by fiberglassing it in and let it dry out.  It will crack and 

 they

 assume no responsibility.   You are supposed to buy their mounting kit 

 and

 strap it in.


	


I got to confess that I questioned (to myself) the implications of 

fibreglassing in a tank which is subject to expansion, but blithely 

went ahead and installed it per plans, ignoring that little voice 

saying, "Hey...this can't be good, there's got to be a better way!"



As for my previous post about my opinion of the high degree of 

precision built into the kit, I made that as an architect and 

homebuilder, not as a machinist, so the world of tight tolerances is 

one in which I've had virtually no direct experience. I do marvel at 

some of the various hardware assemblies and know that if left to my own 

devices for fabrication the results would not be 

satisfactory...sometimes the designs seem a bit too clever but that's a 

story for another time.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Also I also have a  pair of reamers available 16 and 16.5 mm, one for 

 the

 rough cut and  one for the  fine cut.  I have cut them short and 

 machined a

 hex on each end.  That way you  don't have to pull the endine way out 

 and

 you can put a ratchet on the end  to run them home.


	


That sounds excellent...thanks for your offer to make them available to 

others!



Regards and good luck w/ getting your plane back in the air soon,



Fred

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

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karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: Europaprecision?

Steve,

Most of us are "older". Nevertheless I admire your courage. You will find 

every time the solution for the problems that occur. May 2008 be for you 

without new mods and without old misfits. Think about the joy when you will 

fly your bird very soon.

Happy New Year.

Karel Vranken  F-PKRL.

---

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Europaprecision?

Steve,

Keep us informed, if you come up with a solution. It would be intriguing to

try something else. I saw a picture somewhere of one other member that built

an aluminum tank.



Thanks for the informative pics.

Regards,

Greg.



-----snip-----

In any case I don't believe I  am going to put my replacement polyethelyne

tank back in the aircraft.  I am going to pursue making an aluminum

(aluminium for you other guys) tank up with AN fittings.

Check some photos of the  tank and the crack attached.



Steve Hagar

A 143

Mesa AZ



Do not archive

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

Steve



just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making

a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin

One of the fibreglass sellers i know tells me it is virtually totally

chemically resistant and if you add wax in styrene to the resin

it's even better again. I intend to try it and find out for myself with a

test tank, I told him if was for an aircraft and he wasnt concerned at all,

which

given everybodys desire to cover their asses or not even deal with aircraft

because of the liability issues speaks volumes. The resultant tank

would be very light and very strong and rigid, Could be a better way to go.

only issue i can see, is you cant use vinylester and epoxy together

as it wont bond properly, I was told, so you would have to make mounts and

bolt it in, which may not be such a bad idea



craig



--

avgashead(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

Does anybody know who made and supplied the few fibreglass tanks that

were available to builders in the UK? I bought my kit with the tank

already fitted into the cockpit module, and from distant memory,(it was

two and a half years ago that I bonded the module in) the tank is

mounted in the same way as the polyethelyne one.

A weight penalty is inevitable but I'm trusting that the glass tank will

give me better service and not be so prone to distortion as the factory

issue.



Richard Scanlan

#103, wiring and upholstery to go.

--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

No problem with vinyl ester, but I would recommend to use glass instead 

of carbon. Carbon is too stiff and would stop the airplane flexing.

Graham

craig bastin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Steve

 

 just on the subject of tanks and making new ones, Have you considered making

 a tank out of carbon fiber and vinyl-ester resin

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester.



craig



--

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:55 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

Those support pads that are  "called  for" are  indeed "extra" as they were

not in the original design and were put in as an afterthought when problems

started  coming about.  The tank I have is one of the later versions as the

replacement I  have is exactly the same.

Yes is  does get hot here, however this has happened to others  and it

seems issues point to the fact that this material  and the mounting design

don't lend themselves to having the  tank being emptied allowing it to dry

out and  have the material migrate.  The SOP with aircraft is to refuel

them before you put them away so this   We could do a scientific experiment

and have every one drain their tank and let them sit for six to 10 weeks

and find out what the failure rate is.  The issue is that this is an issue

and as I have noted another manufacturer has issued a warning about this

and  now this should be formally documented as a characteristic of the 

aircraft.



I did think of  possibly molding a unit up from another material  as kevlar

or graphite however another individual mentioned that it would have to be

bolted or otherwise mounted securely mounted in  other than bonding. 

However I hate  to act as a guinea pig on something that is not in

widespread use.  If I changed the mounting routine to something other than

bonding, the polyethelyne tank would probably be more than satisfactory and

that may be exactly what I do if the cost and logistics of  making an

aluminum tank become too onerous. I don't believe an aluminum tank would be

bonded in  either. I was sent a photo of  an aluminum tank.  I would very

much  like to know how it was  installed and  what kind of service it is

giving if  you are  out there listeninng?



Thanks,

Steve Hagar

A143 

Mesa AZ

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Date: 12/30/2007 2:11:22 PM

 Subject: Re: Europaprecision?



 

 On Sunday, Dec 30, 2007, at 11:33 US/Pacific, Steve Hagar wrote:



 > I have tore into the top of the cockpit seatback to get at

 > the gas tank to pull it out because of the crack. Once the top was off 

 > what

 > was  present was slightly disturbing.  We have our extra support pads 

 > to

 > keep the tank from pooching into our spar cavity and interfering with 

 > the

 > aileron belcrank rod.  Every interior surface looks like that.  The 

 > top of

 > the tank is vavy from expansion and the back surface exhibits the same

 > condition.  In all cases flat surfaces of the tank are stressed and 

 > buckled

 > because of  the expansion.  You just don't see it unless you take the 

 > lid

 > off.



 Steve,



 Thanks for sharing your frustrations w/ your fuel tank and passing on 

 your thoughts on the issue of cracking....sobering thoughts and pixs 

 indeed. A couple of questions:



 - When you say "extra support pads", do you mean that you installed 

 some pads in addition to those called for?...If so, can you describe 

 them?



 - At some point, I seem to recall that the supplied tanks were changed 

 in some way to eliminate or reduce expansion. When did you purchase 

 your original tank? Do you know if you have one of the earlier or later 

 versions of the tank?



 - Do you attribute your tank's failure (in part) to any extreme 

 temperature conditions which it may have been exposed to in your part 

 of the world?



 To Anyone: Would you be willing to share any protocols you follow which 

 you believe will guard against tank shrinkage and stress cracking?



 >  I made note to a motorhead friend of mine at work that my airplane had

 > gotten a crack in its gas tank.  He knows  nothing of Europas or of

 > homebuilt aircraft.  He asked me if I had  a rotomolded polyethelyne 

 > tank.

 > I said yes.  He asked me if I left the tank dry for awhile.  Yes 

 > again.  He

 > noted  to me that there is a kit car company out there that makes 

 > custom

 > tanks as these for cars.  The company specifically states that if you 

 > mount

 > the tank by fiberglassing it in and let it dry out.  It will crack and 

 > they

 > assume no responsibility.   You are supposed to buy their mounting kit 

 > and

 > strap it in.



 I got to confess that I questioned (to myself) the implications of 

 fibreglassing in a tank which is subject to expansion, but blithely 

 went ahead and installed it per plans, ignoring that little voice 

 saying, "Hey...this can't be good, there's got to be a better way!"



 As for my previous post about my opinion of the high degree of 

 precision built into the kit, I made that as an architect and 

 homebuilder, not as a machinist, so the world of tight tolerances is 

 one in which I've had virtually no direct experience. I do marvel at 

 some of the various hardware assemblies and know that if left to my own 

 devices for fabrication the results would not be 

 satisfactory...sometimes the designs seem a bit too clever but that's a 

 story for another time.



 > Also I also have a  pair of reamers available 16 and 16.5 mm, one for 

 > the

 > rough cut and  one for the  fine cut.  I have cut them short and 

 > machined a

 > hex on each end.  That way you  don't have to pull the endine way out 

 > and

 > you can put a ratchet on the end  to run them home.



 That sounds excellent...thanks for your offer to make them available to 

 others!



 Regards and good luck w/ getting your plane back in the air soon,



 Fred

 -- 

 This message has been scanned for viruses and

 dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

 believed to be clean.

pat(at)zbit.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

Steve how many hours is on this plane?

How much heavier will the aluminum tank be?



Pat Ellison

FSX sim Europa (poor subsitute but all I have now!)

Wellington, FL



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: Europaprecision?

you will need to check the sizing on the glass cloth. Not all sizing is 

compatible with ester resins. The sizing helps bonding of the resin to 

the glass fibers

Graham



craig bastin wrote:

[quote] 

 

 yes the one i intend to make as a test, will be glass an vinyl ester.

 

 craig

 

 --

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: Europaprecision?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Sorry to get into this so late but on the subject of fiberglass  tanks.

 Grahm is correct about the carbon fiber.  The tank needs to move with  the plane.  I haven't had the courage to fill my four year empty  tank.  Pray for me.

  

 On the fiberglass resins for fuel tanks consider a hard lesson learned by  my friends at Tampa Bay Aerosport.  They had to disassemble a wing to  remove the tanks after a gas station accidentally added ethanol to the premium  fuel.  Even the vinyl ester is affected as it turns it into a sticky  sludge.  Epoxy is worse.  I never knew that the resins were so  intolerant to ethanol.  If you use auto fuel rather than 100LL keep an  ethanol tester handy or only get auto fuel from a trusted fuel depot.  For  normal gasoline and av-gas, you'll have no problem.  If you are unlucky  like us in the green state of Florida many of our stations are adding 10%  ethanol to all blends, they are supposed to post it on the pumps so be  careful.

  

 The boating industry up north has sealed all their tanks (mostly  poly and vinyl ester tanks) with a special coating for the inside of  fiberglass tanks which makes them impervious to ethanol.  I'll see if I can  get a brand name and pass it on.

  

 Bud Yerly

 [quote]   ---

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Europaprecision?

The coating MAY be the "wax in styrene" that  i was told i "Should" use but didnt have to. It is added to the vinyl ester to  make it non porous

 at a molecular level apparently. Lets face  it though, in most places the use of Auto fuel with ethanol is not allowed for  aviation. At this point

 about 60% of the fuels in Australia have  ethanol in them, and MOST of the 98 and 100 octane fuels have at least 5%  ethanol.

  

 When I eventually get to the test sample  tank, i will try the "wax in styrene" and then test it with a 50% ethanol blend  and let you all know the results.

  

 craig

 [quote]   --

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