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runwayrex(at)juno.com
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 Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. |
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Deke and Rick,
Both of you make some excellent points here and your positions are well written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 years, I see all kinds of students and get to see some patterns. There are some great kids around who I can predict are on their ways to happy and successful careers and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate that they haven't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My challange to them and all the students is to have a good time in life while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's expense.
All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we end up involved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle flights and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make sure that they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighboring public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not able to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simply hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long way in life.
Enjoy,
Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan
-- "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:
Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with experience from being close to the action.
My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side.
I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.
Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick.
I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied.
Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson
| Quote: | Guys/Gals,
Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure.
I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics.
The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt.
Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time?
The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorney) help.
If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you.
I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world and go to the FAA.
Fly safe!
Rick Weiss
Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)
Daytona Beach
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. |
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Rex,
Well said...From one high school teacher to another.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
KF-IV, 912s, 314DW
Rexster <runwayrex(at)juno.com> wrote:
[quote] Deke and Rick,
Both of you make some excellent points here and your positions are well written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 years, I see all kinds of students and get to see some patterns. There are some great kids around who I can predict are on their ways to happy and successful careers and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate that they haven't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My challange to them and all the students is to have a good time in life while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's expense.
All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we end up involved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle flights and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make sure that they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighboring public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not able to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simply hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long way in life.
Enjoy,
Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan
-- "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net> wrote:
Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with experience from being close to the action.
My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side.
I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.
Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick.
I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied.
Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson
| Quote: | Guys/Gals,
Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure.
I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics.
The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt.
Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time?
The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorney) help.
If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you.
I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world and go to the FAA.
Fly safe!
Rick Weiss
Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)
Daytona Beach
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
| Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
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