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skyridersbn(at)Yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

If he should decide to scratch build, he is going to outlay some cash for the equipment to bend and fabricate his parts.  He needs to add this into his equation.



        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave,

It isn't a money thing as much as an acquired skill set and educational 

benefit.  You scratch build and you will own a lot more tools and end up 

with many more skills than if

you just go kit.  If you like building things, you're an engineer type 

that engages technical things, you probably should seriously  look at 

scratch building.  If you just want to fly quickly, most cheaply, just 

buy an airplane.  The kit build will raise a lot of questions along the 

way and it's an enriching experience to say the least.

The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you 

know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to 

mess up.  It'll happen more times than you're prepared to consider on 

parts that are expensive and time consuming.   You would save a lot on 

freight alone for do-over-parts.  Eventually, in a kit build, you'll  

wonder why you couldn't have made these parts yourself.  By that time, 

scratch building would seem nearly the most natural thing to do.  It 

takes longer to scratch build and you build a thicker hide for problems 

that come along in nearly the same frequency for everyone.  When you're 

done, you probably could rebuild a wing yourself with the forms you 

own.  In a kit, you bend a wing and you'll probably sell the plane or 

start by ordering those expensive parts all over again.  It's not 

everyone's cup of tea and the end result, scratch or kit, is a beautiful 

plane that performs better than an equivalent commercial aircraft. 

Neither way is best for everyone, but it's a decision that's easily 

sampled by either participating in a Zenith rudder workshop at Mexico, 

Mo or just buying the plans and beginning at the beginning.



Good luck,



Larry McFarland  Scratch Built 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

DaveC wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. 



 I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.



 So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] 



 Is it a pride thing?

 A personal learning thing?

 A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?

 Is it that much cheaper?



 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771

DaveC

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Alvin, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  

The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you 

know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to 

mess up. 	




What a great idea!  Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"?



Dave

_________________
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-750 wanna-be building Wynne Corvair conversion

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

A plans builder can scratch build most of the plane and also buy sub 

kits or any individual parts he'd rather not make himself. For instance, 

if you don't want to make the long bends yourself you could buy the wing 

kit, which includes nearly all of the long bent sheets of metal and then 

scratch the build the fuselage, which is built mostly of flat sheets. Or 

you could buy just the wing ribs and scratch build the rest of the wings 

to save some time.

I started with the tail kit and ordered the wing kit when the tail 

surfaces were nearly completed and then the fuselage kit when the wings 

were nearly done. This spread the cost over longer period so I didn't 

have to come up with the whole price all at once.

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Let's keep in mind, just for those wondering the internet, that you have the option of buying the kit in section and you don't have to get it all at once. Shipping will cost more but it is the option I elected mainly because I wanted to keep my money as long as a could and I didn't have any where to store everything when I started.

 Jugle wrote:

> is more realistic for me than spending 15000 or 20000 all in one go. 

> Glenn.

-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

There are some other reasons you want to consider:



If you ruin a piece or need to replace it or make a repair, a scratch builder has the skills and tools to do it with out having to rely on Zenith or wait for delivery. 



There is also the issue of storage. If you buy harder to fabricate parts in the kit, but scratch build the skins, gussets and other easier pieces then you will require much less space for storage and the crates from Zenith will be easier to deal with. 



Scratch building also helps with some fit issues. For instance with fuselage the seat skins that were provided were CNC pre-cut, but the passenger side skin fit looser than the pilot side ( ~10mm ). If it were a scratch built project then I would have initially cut an over sized piece and then trimmed down for better fit. 



And the last issue is that making simply and approved design changes will be easier. So you want to change the wing skins to 0.020 or 0.0.25? Just order different aluminum. Want to make the parts out of 2024? Just use different aluminum. And as a bonus, you will not have the kit parts being replaced to deal with. 



I went with the full kit, but I realized that much of the fuselage could have been scratch built, and my next project will probably with a mix between scratch built and kit.



Good luck!



 On Jan 8, 2008 11:13 AM, DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com (davecove(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveC" <davecove(at)gmail.com (davecove(at)gmail.com)>



Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. 



I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.



So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]



Is it a pride thing?

A personal learning thing?

A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing? 

Is it that much cheaper?



--------

Dave

Alvin, Texas

CH-701 wanna-be-soon





Read this topic online here:



 



"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

-Airplane The Movie  [quote][b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave,  I'm in Baytown at RWJ Airpark,   (54T)   I have Brett Hanley's 701 in 

my hangar as well as my scratch built 701 project.   Have built an RV3 from 

scratch and a Glasair from a kit and would be willing to discuss it with 

you. Come by and visit.

Answers are  a personal thing but mine are:



Pride---   Some,

Learning----- Yep

Mountain -----Less so

Cheaper----- BY FAR

Take longer ,----sure ,it took me a couple months to build the "kit"  will 

save $7-8 K or more.

LO&SLO   John Bolding





---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Should I scratch build or kit build?


	


Don't forget the middle ground: buy the tougher parts (or those requiring

special tools) from Zenith (like all the welded parts) and scratch build the

rest.



-- Craig

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

You said the one thing that is the most important.  "I have the skills".  That speaks volumes.  I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create from a print.  I don't have the "know how" or the equipment.  I am building mine from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire kit.  Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them.  Buying each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.

   

  I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also.  I had researched both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300.  I had originally decided on using the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms.  The major overhaul would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax.  I was chatting with this one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked  me if I'd ever considered using a Corvair Conversion??  I actually discounted it at first but after I did more reading on it, I am hooked.  I ordered my Conversion Manual (only $59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL.  I should be getting my manuals late next week sometime.  The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100 HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself.  Even at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!  

   

  Here is William Wynne's website:   www.flycorvair.com

   

  I hope this helps some.

  Larry



  [quote][b]

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

You said the one thing that is the most important.  "I have the skills".  That speaks volumes.  I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create from a print.  I don't have the "know how" or the equipment.  I am building mine from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire kit.  Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them.  Buying each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.

   

  I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also.  I had researched both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300.  I had originally decided on using the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms.  The major overhaul would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax.  I was chatting with this one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked  me if I'd ever considered using a Corvair Conversion??  I actually discounted it at first but after I did more reading on it, I am hooked.  I ordered my Conversion Manual (only $59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL.  I should be getting my manuals late next week sometime.  The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100 HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself.  Even at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!  

   

  Here is William Wynne's website:   www.flycorvair.com

   

  I hope this helps some.

  Larry



  [quote][b]

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

You said the one thing that is the most important.  "I have the skills".  That speaks volumes.  I personally admire a person that can fabricate and re-create from a print.  I don't have the "know how" or the equipment.  I am building mine from a kit and I too don't have the whole outlay of cash to pay for the entire kit.  Besides, I can't build but just so much in a day/week and I really don't have much available room to store the extra parts until I need them.  Buying each kit as I go, makes more sense to fit my needs.

   

  I had been mulling over the power plant for sometime now also.  I had researched both the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru 3300.  I had originally decided on using the Jabiru because it is a true aircraft engine with lower rpms.  The major overhaul would be 2000 hours versus 1500 on the Rotax.  I was chatting with this one gentleman and told him what I had decided and he asked  me if I'd ever considered using a Corvair Conversion??  I actually discounted it at first but after I did more reading on it, I am hooked.  I ordered my Conversion Manual (only $59) and the Installation Manual ($39) into my CH 601 XL.  I should be getting my manuals late next week sometime.  The cost to rebuild the Corvair 100 HP is between $1500 to $4000 depending on how much work you do yourself.  Even at the high end of $4000, I am STILL saving in excess of $10,000 plus!  

   

  Here is William Wynne's website:   www.flycorvair.com

   

  I hope this helps some.

  Larry



  [quote][b]

rjscep(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave, if your a craftsman and don't mind working on

 your own pride and joy, then I say do it. On the 

 other hand if you think you don't have the time or 

 money is no object, then go ahead and order the kit.

 Remember that you still have to fudge here and there

 to make the parts fit. I myself like to scratch 

 build, doesn't bother me at all and I'm in my 70's.

 Good luck in your endeavor.....do not archive..

--- DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <davecove(at)gmail.com>

 

 Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch

 build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make

 that decision, so I thought I would ask those who

 had finished their pondering. 

 

 I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for

 sure.

 

 So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] 

 

 Is it a pride thing?

 A personal learning thing?

 A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?

 Is it that much cheaper?

 

 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Un/Subscription,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List



 Forums!



 Admin.



 

 

 

 


	


Be a better friend, newshound, and 

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

I decided to build from component kits, since this is my first project and I wanted all the hard bends to be made by the factory, plus spread out the cost.



I am building my own engine.



Since building my airplane, my skills have increased considerably.  Plus I own a lot more tools now than I did before.



My next project will be scratch built.



Patrick

XL/Corvair

N63PZ

sky_ranger161

Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 91

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Hi Dave,

   

  I want to chime in on this one just because it's close to my heart as a scratchbuilder. Without being too flip, I almost feel like if you need to ask the question, then you should kit build. For me, the money is definitely an issue but I have this need to challenge myself on a  heroic scale every once in a while and prove to myself that I can do difficult, if not seemingly impossible things. 

   

  I have a love of aviation - always have, and probably always will. When I started this project, I had two things I was looking for - an affordable way to fly (relatively speaking, of course), and a challenge that maybe .5% of people on the planet will accomplish in their lifetime. Scratchbuilding is affording me both - with all of the new knowledge and extra friendships and fellowship thrown in to boot.

   

  That passion is what will sustain you through 4+ years of  scratchbuilding. If you don't feel the NEED to scratchbuild now, it's probably not going to get any more pronounced as time wears on. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against kitbuilders. I've bought enough parts from Zenith to know what a huge time savings and convenience it is. I'm just in it for the challenge as well. The really cool thing about building a Zenith is the ability to do both. Buy the parts you want to - make the parts you don't.

   

  OK, just my opinion. I hope nobody is offended. This is simply offered up as my explanation for my motivation.

   

  Keep drillin' fellas.

   

  Debo Cox

  Nags Head, NC (4 miles from Kitty Hawk)

  Second wing 80% done

  www.mykitlog.com/debo

   

  do not archive

 [quote][b]

John75142

Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Kaufman, TX

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

It is all of those things, but for me it was more the cost. It is about half 

the cost of the kit if you do some shopping on materials plus although I 

have only just begun it is rather rewarding to stand back and look at a 

finished piece and be able to say I did that.

---

_________________
John Short

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 	  Quote: 	
		   What is not attractive to me is the cut-out.


	


As a mostly-kit-with-occasional-scratch builder the cutting is not hard and

the costs of a mistake not that high. You don't ruin an entire sheet and you

don't cut the final line on the first cut.



If you are seriously considering scratch building I suggest three steps:



- Buy the plans of your choice from Zenith

- Get the HomebuiltHELP.com "Scratch Building Basics for Metal Aircraft" DVD

($39 from http://www.homebuilthelp.com/Scratch.htm)

- Scratch build a rudder



 	  Quote: 	
		   Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting?


	


For long straight cuts lots of us love the Olfa knife:

http://www.ch601.org/tools/olfa.htm



-- Craig

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave,

Everyone has there own reasons mine are in this priority:

1-The enjoyment of building from raw material

2-Quality of parts that meet individual standards

3-Meeting new aviators and learning new skills.

4-Cost



do not archive

Art

--- DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to

 make that decision, so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering. 

 

 I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.

 

 So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes] 

 

 Is it a pride thing?

 A personal learning thing?

 A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?

 Is it that much cheaper?

 

 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156771#156771

videoflyer(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Is it a pride thing?

 Yes.

 

 A personal learning thing?

 Yes.

 

 A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?

 Yes.

 

 Is it that much cheaper?

 Yes.

   More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail! 

  [quote][b]

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Members.

     Anyone thinking about scratch building should not only think about the 

special tools they will need but also the cost of purchasing and trying to 

find everything required.  There are some component parts of the ZodiacXL 

that must be purchased from Zenith and they are not cheap.  Consider all of 

this cost and research then compare with the cost of a kit.  Is what you 

will save worth the trouble?



Bob Stone

Harker Heights, Tx

ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Yes, but buying the individual parts may add up. For example a left nose rib

will cost you $31.10. Look here for the overall CH701 parts catalog:



http://www.zenithair.com/kit/701/index.html



and here for the wing parts:



http://www.zenithair.com/kit/701/wings.html



-- Craig



--

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Alot cheaper, you learn so much more when fabricating your parts. What I 

would suggest is to buy "Scratch building basics for metal aircraft" from 

Homebuilthelp.com. These guys are the greatest in showing techniques and 

information for the first time builder.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

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