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Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Zenith has sold me not only separate parts but even parts bent from a different gauge that the standard kit (and at no extra charge!). great company.



DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveC" 

larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or parts that you 

 know you cannot build and then scratch build parts that you manage to 

 mess up.


	




What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"?



Dave



--------

Dave

Alvin, Texas

CH-701 wanna-be-soon





Read this topic online [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

I have bought replacements for a few parts I messed up. Zenith had no 

problem with that.



DaveC wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a break larger than 36"?

 

 Dave

 

 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dougsnash(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave, I'm sure that I'm not the going to be the last

one to suggest this.  Get the Homebuilthelp.com

scratch building basics DVD.  Mark Townsend (CAN-ZAC

Aviation) and David Barth go through the basics of

scratch building a sheet metal (especially Zenith)

aircraft.  Oh, and don't forget Mr. Sock.



The DVDs are about 3 hrs long and you will watch them

several times and learn something new every time. Once

you see Mark do it, the manufacture of the parts that

make up the kit is really not that hard. I'm scratch

building my CH-701 and cannot imagine doing it any

other way.



Either scratch built or kit built, Zenith aircraft are

great projects.  I can't believe how much I've learned

in the last two years.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



--- DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%?

 80%?

 

 I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to

 pick up sheets. Any kind of tool or service is

 available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so

 that I can spend more $$ on the engine is very

 attractive to me.

 

 What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have

 a hard time cutting a pie correctly. Taking a pair

 of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my

 palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the

 only way to go for all that cutting?

 

 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon


	


Be a better friend, newshound, and 

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

agibeaut

Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

My 2 cents is Larry is exactly right, the way it turns out. I bought the components kits for the 701, and then scratch built what I screwed up. Ain't this fun? But, the guys on this site help a lot, even if they never know it directly. 

--- On Tue, 1/8/08, DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2008, 5:29 PM

 <davecove(at)gmail.com>

 larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:

 > 

 > The best of both of these worlds, is buying the kit or

 parts that you 

 > know you cannot build and then scratch build parts

 that you manage to 

 > mess up.

 What a great idea! [Idea] Will Zenith sell just the ribs

 out of the wing kit for example? or parts that require a

 break larger than 36"?

 Dave

 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156800#156800

Be a better friend, newshound, and 

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Hi Dave,

I have $34,070 total now and there's at least another $1000 for 

communication head sets, GPS, log books, charts flashlight and flight 

bag. Total now, approximately $35,000.00 plus 5-1/2 years at nearly 5000 

hours of work, considering jigs and aircraft construction at even $10.00 

per hour puts another invisible $50K into the mix which makes it 

possible to see why manufactured SLA aircraft might be so expensive.   

With all this, you still have a better deal by $12K to 15K than the Kit 

if you plans-build while buying only parts you cannot make.



I prefer the air-driven shears from HF for cutting just outside the cut 

line and trimming by hand to the exactitude and hand filing the line.



Larry McFarland Scratch built 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

DaveC wrote:

[quote] 



 [quote="Jugle"]Simple, it's cheaper and being an ex-tradesman, I have the skills. 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



 Not counting tool-up, how much cheaper? 20%? 50%? 80%?



 I live near Houston and so would pay no shipping to pick up sheets. Any kind of tool or service is available locally. Saving some $$ on the airframe so that I can spend more $$ on the engine is very attractive to me.



 What is not attractive to me is the cut-out. I have a hard time cutting a pie correctly. Taking a pair of shears to a couple-hundred-dollar sheet makes my palms sweat already. Is a matched set of snips the only way to go for all that cutting?



 --------

 Dave

 Alvin, Texas

 CH-701 wanna-be-soon





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156796#156796

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Hi Dave,



For me the kit vs. scratch build question was easy to answer.  I felt 

willing to pay a fair price for the services provided by Zenith in 

hunting down materials and performing some of the most difficult 

tasks such as welding and bending long parts.



Many of the building tasks are the same whether you buy a kit or 

not.  I think the ones that differ are mostly administrative tasks 

procuring materials and basic metal working tasks.  If you enjoy 

doing these things then the scratch building approach is a good 

choice.  If you have enough money to pay for these things and don't 

want to do them then the kit approach is a good one.



I feel the quality of parts provided by Zenith is very high.  If you 

want this level of quality in a plane you will put your body in then 

Zenith is a good choice to supply parts.  If you decide to build all 

the parts from raw materials then you must have or develop the skill 

and patience to produce high quality parts yourself.  In either case 

you must develop the skill to evaluate the parts you are 

using.  While most of the work done by Zenith is very good there is 

always the chance of a screw up. As a builder, you are the final 

authority on quality of your plane and of each part that goes into it.



The other obvious point is you will finish your plane a lot sooner if 

you buy the kit.  If your primary reason for building a plane is you 

want to get it in the air then this is a positive thing.  If your 

primary reason for building a plane is to enjoy the building process 

then this could be viewed as a negative.



I don't know how much money you can save by scratch building, but I 

suspect it is rather small compared to the cost  of the whole 

plane.  It depends on how well you perform the task of acquiring 

materials.  In any case you can only save a portion of the kit cost 

which is something around $20,000.  You will still face additional 

costs of engine, paint, instrumentation, upholstery, and other stuff 

no matter which way you build the basic airframe.



Good luck,



Paul

Xl fuselage



At 11:13 AM 1/8/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? 

I don't know enough yet to make that decision, so I thought I would 

ask those who had finished their pondering.



I mean, scratch building takes a lot longer for sure.



So... why do it that way? [Rolling Eyes]



Is it a pride thing?

A personal learning thing?

A climb the mountain 'because it is there' thing?

Is it that much cheaper?



--------

Dave

Alvin, Texas

CH-701 wanna-be-soon

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

I'm scratch building a 601XL and the # 1 reason I'm doing is because it is fun and very rewarding, for me. There are lots of rational reasons in favor of scratch building like, lower cost, pay as you go, learning, pride, sense of achievement. However, these reasons will have no value if you don't enjoy cutting and bending aluminum or any of the other demands of scratch building. In making a decision between plans or kit, don't get too caught up in reasons and just go for what you think will be more rewarding for you.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami, Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom/

DaveC <davecove(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "DaveC" 



Simple question I am pondering. Should I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to make that [quote][b]

keystone(at)gci.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Why buy a kit or scratch  build?

  

 To me the question was simple.  I  enjoyed building the airplane.  I love to fly.  Anything that would  get me into the air sooner was better.  It was worth the extra money to fly  a year or two or three earlier.  

  

 Bill Wilcox

 Valdez, Alaska

 N801BW

 350 hrs

 Put away for winter

 fitting for floats before  spring.

  

  

 >Simple question I am pondering. Should  I scratch build or kit build? I don't know enough yet to >make that decision,  so I thought I would ask those who had finished their pondering.

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

For a lot of guys, it's not a question of "scratch build vs kit"...



It's a question of "kit vs quick build".

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Here's the bottom line.  It's almost political.  If you are a scratch 

builder, you think everyone should be a scratch builder.  If a kit builder, 

then kit builder.  I'll tell you this, you will make less mistakes building 

a kit.  I did not have to do a single part over.  Now a lot of parts are 

precut and prepunched, some parts are even completed for you.  Scratch 

building is just what it says it is, you do it all unless you out source and 

you will have to buy or obtain somehow a lot of Expensive tools you may 

never need again.  I have all the tools and skill to scratch build but would 

opt for a kit every time if the money was available.  These scratch guys say 

it's easy, wrong even the kit isn't easy.  There are several mistakes in the 

plans and the instructions can be very misleading.   You have to really take 

you time, measure 3 times cut once. Access your money, skill level, time, 

space and do what you feel right about.



I just bought a half build kit for 50 cents on the dollar.  There is no 

telling how many started but unfinished kits are out there.  You might try 

and look for one.  Of course you really have to look it over good, I found 

my new kit was a victim of not so good workman ship.  I had to redo a lot of 

work.  Stay on the list, we all will help or confuse you as much as 

possible.  It keeps us busy so we don't start bickering.  LRM 

www.skyhawg.com





---

cgbrt(at)mondenet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

DaveC,

I scratch built my 701 in 1995. Some quick points for your consideration:

1. Cost of building fuselage (firewall back) half price of kit.

2. More time? yes. I was flying after 370 days. I estimate approx 1200 hrs. 

A kit would have saved me time; how much? maybe 30%.

3. If you screw up a part you replace it on the spot.( No calls, no freight, 

no wait).

4. If you want a bigger safety factor in a part you can do it during the 

build. (Some will disagree with changing the plans but as an experimental 

buider it's your call).

5. Once you start flying parts wear and need replacing. You will confidently 

make your own if you scratch built.

6. Finally you will aquire extra skills that will serve in other projects 

for the rest of your life.

Hope this helps.

Carl

---

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave,



    I will be scratch building my own design because I couldn't find what I 

wanted. I would scratch build from plans even if a kit was available.



    I expect to acquire skills during construction that can't be acquired 

any other way.  I also own an old aluminum boat, so the skills and tools 

will do double duty for me.



    I expect the material cost to be lower than any equivalent kit.



    I look forward to the satisfaction of stepping out of the aircraft after 

the initial flight.



    I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an 

airplane. :^)



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."



do not archive

---

DaveC

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Alvin, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Thanks to all... but I think Carl said just the right thing:

6. Finally you will acquire extra skills that will serve in other projects 

for the rest of your life.



Having lived aboard a boat for 4 years, I am comfortable with wood, fiberglass and things mechanical, but I have worked very little metal. Metal is a gaping hole in the middle of my skill set. I bought my first MIG welder and learned to use it only 4 years ago. I also have 2 compressors, a 36" shear/break/slip roll and a barely-used medium sized mill/lathe I bought locally off eBay.



I have the desire to work metals and a good start on the tools needed but until now (well, actually May 07, when I sold my Grumman AA5) I haven't had a good reason for getting bizzy with the metal. And now I have the right reason. I will scratch-build the 701, starting on the easiest parts and progressing toward the most difficult. As I progress I will make or buy the parts I need depending upon how well my skills are developing and the overall speed of the project.



So... now another open-ended question... that is the best part to start on? A scratch build part that will build skills and not cost a lot to mess up. Wing and tail ribs maybe? Lots of them...  wax on/wax off kind of practice?

_________________
Dave
Alvin, Texas
CH-750 wanna-be building Wynne Corvair conversion

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

 



 	  raymondj(at)frontiernet.n wrote: 	
		  Dave,



    



    I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an 

airplane. :^)



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."



do not archive

--- 	




Do not Archive

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

I started with the rudder, same as the rudder workshop. The 1st homebuilt help video will guide you though it and it will give you what you need to continue with the rest. I suggest to get all the videos, I don't count it as airplane build time though

cgbrt(at)mondenet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave

Wings are a good choice to start.

Only advise, build a nice level 4'X12' table before you start assembly.

Carl

---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Dave, go to www.homebuilthelp.com and order the scratch builders DVD.

This should be your first step. Then ask questions after watching that

DVD. The cost is low and the learning will help you a lot. Plus they

build a 701 Rudder in the making of the DVD.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

--

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

LRM,

I can't agree with that.  I think you'll find most of us scratch builders understand the desire to get it done faster.  I think you'll find most of us regard it as a trade off.  Cost VS Time.  I don't think scratch building is for everybody.

Dan



 	  lrm(at)skyhawg.com wrote: 	
		  Here's the bottom line.  It's almost political.  If you are a scratch 

builder, you think everyone should be a scratch builder.  



---

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

jmcburney(at)pobox.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

I recommend the rudder workshop for plansbuilders for another reason also:

While there, watch and talk with the folks that are working on parts for the

kits; you can pick up lots of good hints/advice/methods for making various

parts.  Also, you'll get a better idea of the techniques they use (i.e., how

they form ribs from flat sheets -- interesting).  Check out their welding

shop, too.



Jim



CH-801

DeltaHawk

90% done, 95% left

zenith601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Why Scratch Build (a newbie wonders out loud)

Only if he's Santa Clause.



 On Jan 9, 2008 7:20 PM, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net (kmccune(at)somtel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net  (kmccune(at)somtel.net)>



[Laughing]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave,



     I heard the "chicks" really dig a fat old guy who scratchbuilt an

 airplane. :^)

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN



 "Hope for the best,

 but prepare for the worst."



 do not archive

 ---


	




Do not Archive

 

--------

Kevin

N701DZ Reserved





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157101#157101 

  [quote][b]

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