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Hangar condensate and my 601

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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Hi guys,



On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my 

aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the 

condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt 

that would help. In conversation with another builder, he’d heard 

putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar 

would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and 

condensing on the plane’s surfaces. I’m not a weatherman, and only have 

a vague idea of what’s actually going on. There are probably many of us 

looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or 

practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these 

wet periods?



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601

The plastic on the floor might help but if there is that much moisture in the hanger the last thing you want to do is cover the airplane.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

John75142

Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Kaufman, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Larry:

I'm not sure if the plastic on the floor will work, I do know that before 

pouring concrete if you put down plastic then pour it will keep the moisture 

from wicking through your slab.



But hey it would be a cheap experiment to see, it might work the same way.

---

_________________
John Short

gscampoli(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Larry,



Usually the key factor in controlling moisture and condensation in a structure is adequate ventilation.  Can you provide a few square feet of vent opening both at the roof line and at or near grade?  



I'm no expert, but I saw this approach work for my EAA chapter hangar.



Gerry Scampoli

Hingham, MA

601XL - Corvair

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 15:23:45 -0600

 From: larry(at)macsmachine.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Hangar condensate and my 601



 

 Hi guys,



 On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my

 aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the

 condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt

 that would help. In conversation with another builder, he’d heard

 putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar

 would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and

 condensing on the plane’s surfaces. I’m not a weatherman, and only have

 a vague idea of what’s actually going on. There are probably many of us

 looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or

 practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these

 wet periods?



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com




	


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Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008

scottbevier

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Larry,



There's a simple way to determine if the source of moisture is from the

concrete slab. Cover a 48" square area on the floor with clear plastic and

tape the edges down. After 24 hours, check for condensate UNDER the plastic.

I don't believe this is the reason for the wet airplane. What happens is

after a period of cold temperatures the hanger is cold, your airplane is

cold, everything is cold, and there's very little moisture in the air. Then

we get an abrupt blast of warm moisture laden air from the south and the

moisture will condense out on all surfaces that are below the dew point. I

see this a lot here in Michigan, especially in early Spring. There's no

practical way to prevent this but you could try running a high velocity fan

in the hanger whenever the weather forecast indicate warm moist air is on

the way. This may help reduce the amount of condensate on the airplane, and

the duration it's wet, but it will not prevent it.



Scott Bevier

active plans builder 601XL 



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Gerald,

You may have hit on it and it would be a problem of my own making.  Last 

spring, I used expanding insulating foam to keep the birds out of the hangar

and managed to close everything they could get thru.  I may have to 

drill it all out to allow air to circulate and replace it with screen.

Of course, there are a few days that will be damp regardless, but this 

is one I can do.

Thanks again!



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



Gerald Scampoli wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Larry,



 Usually the key factor in controlling moisture and condensation in a structure is adequate ventilation.  Can you provide a few square feet of vent opening both at the roof line and at or near grade?  



 I'm no expert, but I saw this approach work for my EAA chapter hangar.



 Gerry Scampoli

 Hingham, MA

 601XL - Corvair

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

I am not sure what is common practice in your  locale but here in Louisiana, we always put heavy plastic down in the forms over  the dirt/sand before pouring concrete. My understanding is the plastic is  intended to prevent the finished concrete from "sweating" during cool, damp  weather. If that was done when your hangar's slab was poured then more plastic  over the surface isn't likely to help. In fact, the only thing that is likely to  help is probably not practical. That would be to lower the relative  humidity inside the hangar, probably by raising the temperature. If you have  another way to dehumidify the hangar that might solve the problem but  otherwise you are most likely stuck with the situation.

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601

c

Covering the ground with plastic and then old carpet on top of it worked for our hanger. Before that the water would drip from the ceiling from condensation.  The planes also would sweat if conditions were right before covering the floor. Apparently very much moisture was coming up through the ground, even though it looked bone dry. No more problems now.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

macleod(at)eagle.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Larry:



As others have noted, if the temperature of the plane skins go below the

dew point (ie cold plane & warm moist air) then you will get condensation

on the plane (probably inside and outside).  I am a metallurgical engineer

and can assure you that the plane's materials can easily take this wetness

without any ill effects.  Venting the hanger will certainly help but

perhaps an easier solution would be to just put light bulbs in the plane

(one in each wing root and one in the fuse).  That should be enough to

keep the interior and the outer surfaces above the dew point.  I do this

in my unheated garage more for piece of mind with the electronics than

anything else.  You only need to turn them on during the kind of weather

we have had in the past few days (sudden warming where the moist outside

air is much warmer than the temperature inside the hanger or if there is a

chance of fog).



Turned colder today so I turned the lights off.



I use 60 watt bulbs.



Mike

601XL waiting patiently for the Rotax FWFwd



 	  Quote: 	
		   Are there any good suggestions or

 practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these

 wet periods?



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Hangar condensate and my 601

Larry,



FYI, I built a metal over pole building (hangar) without any insulation 16

years ago. Shortly after completion, I noted moisture condensing and

dripping onto the aircraft during the winter months. There were no leaks

during rain storms nor under melting snow. Water has stained the wood

purlins, etc... 



Latter, I found that I should have insulated the interior side of the metal

roof cover at time of construction.



Building scenario: This hangar is constructed in the high desert with lots

of air movement due to small open areas and lack of insulation; painted

asphalt floor and sliding doors -- no windows.



After much discussion with contractors, building suppliers, etc., I

discovered that (wind powered) rotating vent fans, strategically placed,

solved the majority of the problem. Two 12 inch diameter fans takes care of

1600 square feet.



These vents look like pillars with rotating vents -- sticking straight up

from the roof. Senior moment prevents me from remembering the name.



They are popular on commercial buildings, barns, etc...



Mack 

601XL/3300

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601

I'd say it's in the air, not the floor. If it's really cold for awhile and everything in the hanger is cold and then all of a sudden it gets warm, the new warm air is going to condense on anything that's still cold. Probably best to seal any drafts in the hanger. The floor is probably not holding that much moisture, it's the warm air that gets in the hanger after a cold spell (or should I say during a warm spell) that's causing the condensation. Takes pretty extreme conditions too. About 9 years ago I got rust all over my tools in my garage, particularly large power tools that acted as a large heat sink, when the weather suddenly went from bitterly cold to like 60 degrees or so for a few days.



You figure worse yet is all the airspace INSIDE the plane structure, like in the wings. In that case, I'd say your better off covering the entire plane to reduce the chance of air exchange on and inside the airframe.



No different from a fuel tank that over time "gets water in the fuel." It's getting water in the fuel from cold/warm/cold cycles condensing water in the tank.



If the concrete is a source of moisture, painting it may help, that and sealing the hanger good so air inside can't be exchanged with the ever changing humidity of the air outside. I can see some people's thinking here that you'd want the area to be ventilated well, but at the same time, that's also bringing inside the outside air as well as the temperature differential which is the cause of the condesation in the first place. Better for the building to be more neutral in how the air reacts. If things cool off slowly and warm up and the air into and out of the building exchanges at a slower reate you don't get the extremes that lead to condensation in the first place which is "take a glass of ice water outside on a hot day" syndrome ... it's gonna sweat. That same glass of water left in the fridge and then the fridge unplugged (with nothing else in it) won't sweat, it'll just slowly warm up, melt the ice and become acclimated to it's surroundings, but the condensation problem will be minimal.



 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  Hi guys,



On checking the hangar during this latest winter thaw, I realized my 

aircraft was literally dripping on all the undersides. Actually, the 

condensate was everywhere. I wiped the plane down, but seriously doubt 

that would help. In conversation with another builder, he?d heard 

putting a plastic sheet over the concrete floor in an unheated hangar 

would help prevent humidity from rising from the dirt and concrete and 

condensing on the plane?s surfaces. I?m not a weatherman, and only have 

a vague idea of what?s actually going on. There are probably many of us 

looking for a better solution to this. Are there any good suggestions or 

practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these 

wet periods?



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601

I like this idea too.



 	  macleod(at)eagle.ca wrote: 	
		  Larry:



As others have noted, if the temperature of the plane skins go below the

dew point (ie cold plane & warm moist air) then you will get condensation

on the plane (probably inside and outside).  I am a metallurgical engineer

and can assure you that the plane's materials can easily take this wetness

without any ill effects.  Venting the hanger will certainly help but

perhaps an easier solution would be to just put light bulbs in the plane

(one in each wing root and one in the fuse).  That should be enough to

keep the interior and the outer surfaces above the dew point.  I do this

in my unheated garage more for piece of mind with the electronics than

anything else.  You only need to turn them on during the kind of weather

we have had in the past few days (sudden warming where the moist outside

air is much warmer than the temperature inside the hanger or if there is a

chance of fog).



Turned colder today so I turned the lights off.



I use 60 watt bulbs.



Mike

601XL waiting patiently for the Rotax FWFwd



 	  Quote: 	
		   Are there any good suggestions or

 practices regarding covering a plane or the floor, or both during these

 wet periods?



 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Hangar condensate and my 601

Our airport recently built two rows of T hangars with concrete floors and bifold doors.



In the spring every hangar occupant was complaining about the condensation problem you mention.  My Champ was literally dripping and everything in the hangar was wet.  It was simply the interaction of a cold steel structure with slightly warmer moist air.  The solution was that we cut holes near the top of the adjoining walls in each hangar and on the end of the hangars installed large vent fans controlled by a humidistat.  When the humidity rose near the condensation point the fans turned on and moved the air around.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

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