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ELT/PLB

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lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Well, a PLB may be less expensive, but it presumes that you are  

conscious when you need to activate it.  Or that you will successfully  

regain consciousness before, well, you know.  Steve Fausset had a  

personal PLB - didn't do him any good at all.  Just a thought.

On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Giffen Marr wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 I am planning on using the cheapest ELT available to meet the FAR 91

 Requirements and a 406 PLB. The current cost of ELT's meeting the 406

 requirements are out of sight as compared to the 121.5 units. The  

 other

 advantage is the PLB is not much larger then a cell phone as  

 compared to the

 ELT. Only advantage to the ELT is the battery life may be longer  

 then the

 PLB.



 Giff Marr

 LIV-P/Mistral 65%



 --

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Indeed, and you can always activate it when you know you are going down. In fact I wonder how reliable the G switches are in the case of ELT's anyway...121.5 ELTs are notoriously innefective but the 406 units will still have the same kind of G switch technology I would presume, how well do they work?



Indeed my Wife is briefed to do exactly this...if the engine quits have the PLB in your hands and be ready to activate.



As to Steve Fosset I thought he just a had a 121.5 ELT and the same thing on a fancy wristwatch I doubt if that was a full 406 unit with a 5W transmit signal (remember that 121.5's only have a 50mW signal I believe)...This is supposed to be enough power to get out from under tree cover ect.



Personally I want the satellites to have a lock on me BEFORE we hit the ground.



Frank rv7a



--

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Steve Fosstet might have owned a PLB, but I don't think he was actually

wearing it the day he went down - though it was for several days

incorrectly reported that he was.  Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Steve_Fossett

Many times ELT's don't activate on impact.  On the other hand, 98% of ELT

activations are false alarms.  And when they are activated, it often takes

hours to get somebody to actually try to locate the ELT (probably because

so many activations are false alarms).  If I'm in bad enough shape that I

can't manually activate my PLB, I think it's statistically unlikely that

the ELT is going to get help to me fast enough to do any good.

(The 121.5) ELT's seem most effective at giving SAR/CAP something to do,

and in helping SAR/CAP find wreckage - too late.  And in providing a A/P's

with a regular supply of flashlight batteries.  The requirement for

(technologically immature) ELT's in small airplanes was a political knee

jerk response.

PLB's seem like a great idea.  I have much better confidence in a PLB's

ability to actually help a downed aircraft.  Too bad carrying one doesn't

provide an AMOC for carrying an ELT - at least in non-commercial ops. 

That it's not an AMOC probably discourages the purchase of more PLB's.

Regards,

Matt-

[quote] 

 Well, a PLB may be less expensive, but it presumes that you are

 conscious when you need to activate it.  Or that you will successfully

 regain consciousness before, well, you know.  Steve Fausset had a

 personal PLB - didn't do him any good at all.  Just a thought.

 On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Giffen Marr wrote:

> 

> <GAMarr(at)Charter.Net

> >

>

> I am planning on using the cheapest ELT available to meet the FAR 91

> Requirements and a 406 PLB. The current cost of ELT's meeting the 406

> requirements are out of sight as compared to the 121.5 units. The

> other

> advantage is the PLB is not much larger then a cell phone as

> compared to the

> ELT. Only advantage to the ELT is the battery life may be longer

> then the

> PLB.

>

> Giff Marr

> LIV-P/Mistral 65%

>

> --

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

If you want satellites locked in, consider getting your amateur radio

license (ham) and then start carrying (or install) a Tiny Track (or

something similar).



http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/



And use it to keep your position updated via APRS:



http://www.googleaprs.com/



Then people will have a way to see your flight is/was going.



I wonder if ADS-B is going to support something similar.



Regards,



Matt-



[quote] 

 <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>



 Indeed, and you can always activate it when you know you are going down.

 In fact I wonder how reliable the G switches are in the case of ELT's

 anyway...121.5 ELTs are notoriously innefective but the 406 units will

 still have the same kind of G switch technology I would presume, how well

 do they work?



 Indeed my Wife is briefed to do exactly this...if the engine quits have

 the PLB in your hands and be ready to activate.



 As to Steve Fosset I thought he just a had a 121.5 ELT and the same thing

 on a fancy wristwatch I doubt if that was a full 406 unit with a 5W

 transmit signal (remember that 121.5's only have a 50mW signal I

 believe)...This is supposed to be enough power to get out from under tree

 cover ect.



 Personally I want the satellites to have a lock on me BEFORE we hit the

 ground.



 Frank rv7a



 --

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Get the PLB that works  when it is turned them on when you leave home 

and turned them off when you get back. The object is that some one 

knows where you are all the  time when it is on. Nice for the wife at 

home.  Real time monitoring is the state of the art and the cost is 

minimal. An ELT only works when  you crash.

Read about Spot PL device.

Paul

=================

At 08:22 AM 1/11/2008, you wrote:

[quote]

Well, a PLB may be less expensive, but it presumes that you are

conscious when you need to activate it.  Or that you will successfully

regain consciousness before, well, you know.  Steve Fausset had a

personal PLB - didn't do him any good at all.  Just a thought.

On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Giffen Marr wrote:

>

>

>I am planning on using the cheapest ELT available to meet the FAR 91

>Requirements and a 406 PLB. The current cost of ELT's meeting the 406

>requirements are out of sight as compared to the 121.5 units. The

>other

>advantage is the PLB is not much larger then a cell phone as

>compared to the

>ELT. Only advantage to the ELT is the battery life may be longer

>then the

>PLB.

>

>Giff Marr

>LIV-P/Mistral 65%

>

>--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

I think it is more about making sure the PLB is actually transmitting while still airborne....I believe the satalites can actually register the signal relatively quickly but may not have the actual GPS coordinates locked in.



So making an assumption that you have say 2 minutes before you hit the ground and in the worse case the PLB is destroyed (unlikely) , is that enough time time to alert SAR?..I'm thinking you may not have gotten the accurate GPS lock but a 2 square mile position (from triangulating the signal itself) is a whole lot better than no position at all.



Your thoughts?



Frank

--

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

I can't imagine that, if I'm having a critical emergency, that Im  

going to say, "OK, two minutes before crashing, I'm going to activate  

my PLB".  Even remembering that it needs to be activated at all is  

unlikely, given the amount of adrenaline that will be pumping through  

your system.  What do you do if you loose a prop, or have a door open  

and can barely control the airplane?  "Oh, yea, don't forget to  

activate the PLB".



It's your airplane, and your emergency situation to plan for, so do  

what suits you.  As for me, even though automatic triggering functions  

aren't perfect, I'll stick with an ELT that can be triggered both ways.



Steve

On Jan 11, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I think it is more about making sure the PLB is actually  

 transmitting while still airborne....I believe the satalites can  

 actually register the signal relatively quickly but may not have the  

 actual GPS coordinates locked in.



 So making an assumption that you have say 2 minutes before you hit  

 the ground and in the worse case the PLB is destroyed (unlikely) ,  

 is that enough time time to alert SAR?..I'm thinking you may not  

 have gotten the accurate GPS lock but a 2 square mile position (from  

 triangulating the signal itself) is a whole lot better than no  

 position at all.



 Your thoughts?



 Frank

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

I would certainly agree it depends upon your particular circumstances and having automatic activation is better than not having it.



As for me I tend to fly to the outer regions of the USA only when accompanied by my better half..Her sole job in an emergency is to get the antenna up and fingers poised over the "On" button. So for me I think its a reasonable plan.



I still carry the PLB for short hops...a 200mph airplane can get an awfully long way away in what seems like a short flight and for this a 406Mhz ELT would be better.



Frank



--

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

Greetings Listers,



    The airplane I'm building is intended for off airport operations.  I 

believe my most likely accident scenario is striking a an object close to 

the ground.  That will give me virtually no time to do anything before the 

event is over. I consider the automatic activation feature manditory for my 

anticipated mission profile.



    Another subject I have seen almost no comment on is water operation 

accidents and ELTs.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."

---

longg(at)pjm.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

On the big scale I think the government is pushing this conversion (as

they are ADS-B) to enable better tracking on each GA aircraft. In the

end they will have a dozen ways to track, charge and identify everyone.

Can't wait.



--

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

The required 121.5Mhz ELT in the plane didn't do him any good, either.

I haven't checked lately on the price difference between PLBs & 406 

ELTs. If there's a serious difference, remember we are supposed to be 

homebuilt a/c experimenters. Ever looked at the G-switch on a typical 

ELT? The ones I've seen are just a pivoting steel weight next to an 

off-the-shelf miniature toggle switch.Get to work on that PLB. 

Charlie

Steve Thomas wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Well, a PLB may be less expensive, but it presumes that you are 

 conscious when you need to activate it.  Or that you will successfully 

 regain consciousness before, well, you know.  Steve Fausset had a 

 personal PLB - didn't do him any good at all.  Just a thought.

 On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:24 AM, Giffen Marr wrote:

> 

> <GAMarr(at)Charter.Net>

>

> I am planning on using the cheapest ELT available to meet the FAR 91

> Requirements and a 406 PLB. The current cost of ELT's meeting the 406

> requirements are out of sight as compared to the 121.5 units. The other

> advantage is the PLB is not much larger then a cell phone as compared 

> to the

> ELT. Only advantage to the ELT is the battery life may be longer then the

> PLB.

>

> Giff Marr

> LIV-P/Mistral 65%

>

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

"On the big scale I think the government is pushing this conversion (as they

are ADS-B) to enable better tracking on each GA aircraft. In the end they

will have a dozen ways to track, charge and identify everyone.

Can't wait."

That's quite a pessimistic view.  Anyone with something to hide will simply

not use whatever the technology is.  I think the government desperately

needs to cut costs for searches that can easily exceed your lifetimes worth

of taxes.  It may speed up the rescue process which may give you a better

chance of survival, but in the larger picture, it's about saving very large

amounts of money.



Bevan

RV7A wiring

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Good comments, I'll just add a few points.

  Yes a PLB is a great adjunct while the 406Mhz Regs 

are in limbo (not yet mandated). Heck a PLB is a great 

thing to have for you, your wife in kids in the car, boat, 

skiing, hiking. How many people get lost or stuck. 

(story below)

   

  PLB's are NOT ELT's

   

  PLB's advertise they have the same output power, but 

they don't get out as well with the small portable 

antenna. Besides compromises in the antenna, 

battery life is less. The antenna has no real ground 

plane. It can't meet 

   

  With that said PLB's are are pretty good for the 

money and I want one. With PLB limitations said, if 

your airframe mounted ELT's antenna is crushed 

under the plane it will not work well either. Of 

course a PLB needs to be manually turned on.

 

  The PLB is good idea even if you have a 406 ELT.  

The 406ME Artex ELT is the only game in "low cost" 

 units for aviation at about $1000. Others are working 

 on units but from what I am told, the specs almost 

mandate a lithium Ion battery (as Aertex has) and 

you can forget cheap "D" cells. They don't cut it.

   

  The END IS NEAR

  

The 243 MHz is going away, period. As many 

limitations as the old ELT technology had, its going to 

get even less effective. The 243 MHz Sats are going 

to stop looking (so they say). Widely advertised is the 

accuracy of the 406 MHz technology, almost perfect 

with GPS input. No guarantees in life, but 406 is better.



  There is an aviation 406 ELT that can be removed 

and used with a portable antenna. The basic Artex 

is the 406ME ($1000), the one with the portable 

antenna is 406ME/P. They look similar, but I'm told 

they case is different (probably a ground plane). 

The  antenna folds out almost two feet. It cost about 

$200 or $300 more? If they could only add internal 

GPS but than you have another GPS antenna and 

the extra battery drain. Artex commercial models with 

GPS interface are BIG bucks. If you have a 406 MHz 

ELT it seems like a shame not to transmit ELT pos 

since the capability is there. The SAR comes right to 

you. Of course that is where the 121.5Mhz comes in, 

that is for local DF.

   

  The PLB for the military and marine use have portable 

capability. So may be one of these PLB might be 

better than general consumer types?

   

  Steve Fossett has not been found and may never be. 

The RV pilot that was lost over NM and TX boarder 

was not found for months, even with ATC radar 

tracking. If you want to be found or you want your 

family to have a body to bury, you need a working 

ELT. The 406Mhz is your best  bet.

   

  Also the Artex 406ME does not have GPS data. For 

only $600-$700 you can get GPS data with a PLB. It 

could save your life in a car, boat or hiking. 

   

  Story: There have been many cases where people 

get lost hiking or a person just drives off the road, 

survives but is not found for days. Some times they 

find them alive a week later off the side of the road, 

even though they where only 50 yards from the 

freeway, on their normal routes from home to work or 

shopping. In one tragic case the police would not pull-

up the Cel Phone ping info for several days for a 

woman, despite the husband's request. Missing 

person wait period rules I guess. When they did get 

the Cel phone triangulation, they found the car, in 

gully off the side of the road, but the woman had 

expired. She was alive for a day or more. PLB might 

have saved her if she could have  activated it. The 

police don't have to go into SAR mode for a wife that 

did not come home after work. I guess that is a sales 

pitch for ON-Star. FLY SAFE.

   

  Other wise flight following AND file detailed flight planes & fly them.

   

  George RV-7 finishing



        [quote][b]

jon(at)finleyweb.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: ELT/PLB

All,



One function of a PLB that seems to have been forgotten is the tracking mode

(see http://www.findmespot.com/).  Assuming you go down and the PLB is

destroyed, your next of kin have a very good idea of your whereabouts - much

better idea than an ELT provides.



Frankly, if I crash and die, I could care less if someone finds me (I know

my family does not feel that way). What I desire out of my PLB is the

ability to tell someone exactly where I am if I have a problem and survive.

Ya - all kinds of scenario's can be debated but if you MUST have a

completely fail safe solution - don't expect to get it from a $150 device.



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy

http://www.finleyweb.net

Mid-Valley Airpark (E98), Los Lunas, NM

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: ELT/PLB

Just to clarify, 406MHz Personal Location Beacon 

(PLB's), is basically a hand held ELT. You register the 

owner. It's free and is the official Search and Rescue 

(SAR) freq with satellites operated by Governments. 

 

The "Personal Tracking Device" (PTD) is a for FEE  

commercial service. Cost of the SPOT service is $110 

year, initially. 406Mhz is free. The PTD have their own 

satellite or piggy back off one. I don't know how good 

their coverage is. It's fairly new. The PTD are geared 

for hikers, snowmobile and other out door stuff. Yes I 

agree a constant tracking device is a good idea. May 

be it is a good substitute for a PLB? Who knows?

 

True PTD can be used to get an update on location. 

Your family can go on the web I guess and look up 

your position real time. PLB's is only activated for 

emergency. Other wise it's off. It is also passive in that 

it must  be activated by the user. It gives no position 

unless turned on. The PTD is on all the time, which 

might be a battery issue, since they run off of two little 

AA's.

 

Some of the PTD out there from different companies 

have the ability to send a message to the PTD. At one 

time they where talking about future voice capability 

(like a satellite phone), but the PTD's have backed 

down from that, for technical (cost?) reasons. If you 

HAVE a PTD than you MUST have some one 

monitor you or at least know to look for you and know you 

have a PTD. 

   

  A PLB is monitored 24/7 and has world 

wide coverage.

  

 

 >From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net (jon(at)finleyweb.net)> 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Subject: RE: Re: ELT/PLB 

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  One function of a PLB that seems to have been 

forgotten is the tracking mode  (see  

http://www.findmespot.com/). Assuming you go down 

and the PLB is destroyed, your next of kin have a 

very good idea of your whereabouts much better 

i>dea than an ELT provides. 
	


 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Frankly, if I crash and die, I could care less if 

someone finds me (I know my family does not feel 

that way). What I desire out of my PLB is the ability 

to tell someone exactly where I am if I have a 

problem and survive. Ya - all kinds of scenario's can 

be debated but if you MUST have a completely fail 

safe solution - don't expect to get it from a $150 

device. 

 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Jon Finley 

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy 

http://www.finleyweb.net 

Mid-Valley Airpark (E98), Los Lunas, NM


	


        Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

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