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howado

Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: VGs

Les Goldner,

have you installed the VGs on the elevator?

Howard Carter

tjs22t(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: VGs

 	  Quote: 	
		   have you installed the VGs on the elevator?

 
	


do not archive



..might you mean stab?

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: VGs

Elevator is correct.  They go on the lower leading edge of the elevator. 

They are effective in lift for a nose up attitude.  JG can give you the 

exact location.



LRM www.skyhawg.com

---

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: VGs

The VG manufacture has tested and recommends that the VG's be placed on the 

leading edge of the elevator for more authority during the low speed flaring 

of the airplane.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: VGs

Who is the VG manufacturer?



Tim



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: VGs

VG's on the elevator and/or stabilizer can give you more powerful pitch 

control. Fantastic for low speed flare, rotation, etc. Now guess what 

all that extra power can cause at high speed?



Pulling your control stick back can now create much higher G loadings 

(meaning stress on the wing) than it could before. VG's on the wings 

also increase the attainable AOA, which means that VG's on the wing can 

also create a higher amount of stress on the wing.



If you want to put VG's anywhere on the airplane, IMHO it is absolutely 

necessary to talk with Mr. Heintz and make sure there will not be a 

dangerous side-effect from it.



Bill the New Guy

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Elevator is correct.  They go on the lower leading edge of the 

 elevator. They are effective in lift for a nose up attitude.  JG can 

 give you the exact location.

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: VGs

http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php?id 8 check them out, these guys have 

been doing alot of testing of their VGs on the 701.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: VGs

No Howard, I have them but don't think I will install the elevator VGs.

(Want to buy them back?).

 

Here is my reasoning. With the BRS chute behind the baggage compartment the

CG of my 701 is toward the back of the allowed range. Probably due to this,

I can keep the nose up during a power-off stall. Probably the VGs would tend

to hold the nose up even higher in the stall speed range, so I am concerned

that if the engine goes out in a nose high position I may have trouble

dropping the nose... Maybe this wouldn't happen, but why do something that

could potentially cause problems when the plane balances out and I have no

trouble with pitch control now?

Les 



[quote] --

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: VGs

I'm getting a little fed up with your crude attempt to sell VGs on this

site. I come to the Zenith-list to give and get unbiased information, not to

see your sales pitch. This is not the place for this. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

Les



[quote] --

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: VGs

UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out here near SF 

looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a sales agent for anyone.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: VGs

I see nothing wrong with a vendor using this list to reference his own  

web site. It is certainly better than not knowing of a product or  

service being offered.   If you want to know more you can check it  

out.  If not just delete the message and move on.

VGs may be controversial to some but many people who have tried them  

would not give them up.  I have had just one ride in a 701 with VGs  

and it seemed to perform very well.    Jerry





On Jan 22, 2008, at 12:56 PM, <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com> <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com 

 > wrote:



[quote] 



 UHHH, Les, we have talked on the phone when I was moving out here  

 near SF looking for a hangar. I am a real person not a sales agent  

 for anyone.



 David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

 www.skyguynca.com

 ---

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: VGs

Me thinks Les needs a "chill pill".....or something stronger.

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Posting Products and Services Re: VGs

In addition to what I've posted below I think it would be a pretty good idea that if you are selling something that you are talking about that you should add a disclaimer if it isn't clear from your post.



Here are the guidelines Matt wrote...



 Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly 

subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by 

List members promoting their respective products or items for sale 

should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble 

a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but 

is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to 

everyone, including those who provide products to the entire 

community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the 

operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: VGs

David,

I apologize for the outburst. 

I didn't look at who the sender was until after sending the nasty email. The

guys from Australia have been pushing VGs hard on this site, sometimes

without stating that they were selling them, and mistook you for them.

I know you are not trying to sell VGs and I hope you accept my apology.

Les 



[quote] --

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: VGs

No problem Les.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: VGs

Please note that I asked for the name of the vendor... sorry if I got everyone excited.



I have talked to people who have installed VG's on other aircraft and reported measurable improvements.  For example, Kenmore Air Service in Seattle was operating two super cubs on floats.  One had VG's.  I spoke to one of their instructors who said the AC with VGs outperformed the other by quite a margin.



I am seriously considering VG's for my XL and am interested in whatever info I can find on the subject.



Tim



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: VGs

Ahh, the Kenmore Cubs. I gotta chime in here:



I have about 10 hours in each of those two planes and can tell you this is an apples to oranges comparison concerning the VGs.



First, the plane with VGs ( "0CC" ) is a Cub Crafters Top cub with 180 ponies behind it. The prop size eludes me, but I think it was in the 84" range. It not only has a large number of VGs on the wings, but also strakes on the elevator. For climb, fully loaded, on a warm day you can easily see 2000fpm. That plane is almost un-stallable. I will not practice a power on stall with more than 80% power since the AOA is just too extreme. The minimum controllable airspeed is around 20MPH, if not lower since the pitot tube becomes inaccurate below 25MPH. You have full elevator authority even into stall, no mushing. If you are not watching the altimeter you may not even realize a stall has been entered, you almost have to push the nose over to encourage a break. 



The other plane ( "66P" ) is a true PA-18 with a 150hp engine, no VGs, no strakes and a prop that was close to 92" iirc. It still gets off the water quickly, and you can even get it up on the step with reduced power on a warm day with good technique. For stalls the elevator authority mushes in the low 30s and it stalls soon after with a true break. I have also done full power on stalls without being vertical in this plane. 



All that being said, the 0CC solidly outperforms 66P in every way. The low speed qualities of 0CC are the best I have ever had the pleasure to fly. I believe this is due to the VGs and strakes, but having never flown another Top Cub there is no control group and the claim can not be proved. 



0CC and 66P are very different planes with different weights and different floats mounted at different angles, all that affects the low speed handling.

Here are some pics that were done thanks to 0CC a few months ago in the Cascade Mountains: 

http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/LakeIsabel

http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/HancockAndCalliganLakes 



And some pics thanks to 66P in the Olympic Mountains:

http://picasaweb.google.com/john.marzulli/WynoocheBFR

Enjoy!



PS: Nothing is more confusing to a boater than blowing past an airplane moving in the same direction. The look in their eyes is priceless as they try to figure out how a plane is moving slower than them. 



On Jan 22, 2008 4:40 PM, Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net (juhl(at)avci.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tim Juhl" <juhl(at)avci.net (juhl(at)avci.net)>



Please note that I asked for the name of the vendor... sorry if I got everyone excited.



I have talked to people who have installed VG's on other aircraft and reported measurable improvements.  For example, Kenmore Air Service in Seattle was operating two super cubs on floats.  One had VG's.  I spoke to one of their instructors who said the AC with VGs outperformed the other by quite a margin. 



I am seriously considering VG's for my XL and am interested in whatever info I can find on the subject.



Tim



Do not archive



--------

______________

CFII

Champ L16A flying

Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A 

Working on fuselage





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159880#159880 



-- 

John Marzulli

http://701Builder.blogspot.com/



"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. 

-Airplane The Movie  [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: VGs

I don't see it like the guys from Australia as pushing, more like providing 

info, which I like.  I wish more people would provide information about 

their products especially when their seems to be a lot of interest on the 

list.  Besides when I don't want to read about something I just hit delete. 

No outburst, just delete.  It takes about a half a second.  I've been on 

this list and other forums a long time and have gotten into quite a few tit 

or tats which I have sometimes regretted.  It's easy to get a rep of being 

an asshole if you are not careful.  So, we should just choose our words more 

carefully.   Once you hit the enter key, it's in writing and you can't take 

it back.  Take care, LRM  www.airhawg.com.

---

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: VGs

OK, I admit my ignorance. What are VG'S Variable geometry ?

  

 Thanks Joe Motis

  

 Do not archive



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: VGs

Joe:  

  

 VGs are vortex generators.  They are tiny vanes  which project up from the surface and create a vortex which flows  downstream.  The vortex mixes with the faster moving airstream above the  surface and sweeps some of it down into the slower boundary layer air,  adding energy which tends to keep the boundary layer attached to the  surface.  On an airfoil, keeping the boundary layer attached  reduces the speed at which the airfoil finally stalls.

  

 George Swinford

  

  

 ---

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