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partner14

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Insurance

I am finishing up my both my RV10 and my pilot license.  I am planning on transition training, but I know because I'm a new pilot I'll probably take a beating from the insurance people.  Any recommendations?

_________________
Don A. McDonald
40636

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Insurance

See if you can get a check out in 182 or Cherokee 235, with hi-perf

endorsement.

That should help, then get at least 5-10 hours transition training in

RV-10. Ins may dictate the number of hours of dual.



On Jan 21, 2008 8:32 PM, partner14 <building_partner(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am finishing up my both my RV10 and my pilot license.  I am planning on transition training, but I know because I'm a new pilot I'll probably take a beating from the insurance people.  Any recommendations?



 --------

 Don A. McDonald

 40636





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159680#159680

coop85(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Insurance

Don,

    I agree with getting a "complex" checkout in hopes that it will lower

the rates, it's also not a bad idea anyway since the RV-10 has a lot going

on inside potentially.



I'd recommend really shopping around.  I found significant differences

between quotes (one was twice the rest).  I went with AOPA who lined me up

with Falcon Insurance as they had a 'good' price and minimal type

experience.  When I first started shopping around I was told I'd get credit

for my RV-6 time, but things changed by the time I was ready to fly.



The only good news to offer is most companies will give you a pretty good

break in the price after the first year, so fly a lot.  You can always use

it as an excuse for the high fuel bill that you are preparing for saving on

insurance!



Marcus



--

gerf(at)gerf.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: Insurance

I was in the same situation as you when my 9 first flew - Nation Air came in

with the lowest dollar quote by far.



g 



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: Insurance

I believe that what you want is a high performance endorsement from a CFI.

Secondly don't even ask AVEMCO; Their quoted was double the lowest I found. 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Insurance

Not sure how much time you have until your RV-10 flies,

but you'll do well to get over the 100 hour point, and

the best thing you can do for yourself is to get your

instrument rating right away.  It will keep your skills up

from the private pilot, and it will move them right into the

next level and give you some great knowledge.  It will also

build hours very quickly, and force you to get over that

100 hour mark.  If you have an instrument rating, they

may have lower hours requirements for insurance.  If you

by some stroke of luck could get 200 hours and the instrument

rating, you'd be sitting very good.  Oh, and some time in

that process, make sure to get a HP signoff.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

partner14 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <building_partner(at)yahoo.com>

 

 I am finishing up my both my RV10 and my pilot license.  I am

 planning on transition training, but I know because I'm a new pilot

 I'll probably take a beating from the insurance people.  Any

 recommendations?

 

 -------- Don A. McDonald 40636

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159680#159680

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Insurance

The correct endorsement is "high performance" unless you are building

the prototype RV-10RG. Complex refers to tucking wheels as well as

controllable prop and flaps.



On Jan 21, 2008 9:49 PM, Marcus Cooper <coop85(at)cableone.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Don,

     I agree with getting a "complex" checkout in hopes that it will lower

 the rates, it's also not a bad idea anyway since the RV-10 has a lot going

 on inside potentially.



 I'd recommend really shopping around.  I found significant differences

 between quotes (one was twice the rest).  I went with AOPA who lined me up

 with Falcon Insurance as they had a 'good' price and minimal type

 experience.  When I first started shopping around I was told I'd get credit

 for my RV-6 time, but things changed by the time I was ready to fly.



 The only good news to offer is most companies will give you a pretty good

 break in the price after the first year, so fly a lot.  You can always use

 it as an excuse for the high fuel bill that you are preparing for saving on

 insurance!



 Marcus

 --

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Insurance

In a message dated 1/22/2008 9:05:22 AM Central Standard Time,  apilot2(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The    correct endorsement is "high performance" unless you are building

the    prototype RV-10RG. Complex refers to tucking wheels as well as

controllable    prop and flaps.

	


 

 And having a motor that's over 200+hp with a controllable pitch prop= High  Performance...which is why many planes such as Mooney 201, Cessna Cardinals with  the larger IO-360 are not High Performance aircraft...many have controllable  prop's but the IO-360 many be rated only at 200hp thus not being over 200hp they  do not comply with the requirement for High Performance.

  

 Another way to get your rates a little lower is to obtain an IFR rating as  soon as possible beyond you Private rating...adding Commercial may lower your  rates even further.  More safe flying hours, plus advanced rating and hull  value and type aircraft generally make up the rate you will receive.

  

 I don't believe that Falcon is an Insurance company...rather it is a  brokerage company and they then will contact Insurance companies to get you  quotes on your coverage...additionally they will also need to be a  registered in your state before they can offer insurance for your  policy...or something complicated like that.

  

 P



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Insurance

As an addition to the Insurance topic, I just got a call from

NationAir after yesterday faxing them my numbers from my

pilot and airplane times.  This year, like last year, my rate

dropped about $300.  Last year I used the drop to take my

hull coverage up a bit, so it was a wash. This year though,

I'm leaving it as a decrease.  It's just nice to know that

all the time I'm putting on has been moving me up the

scales for discounts.



So, get your HP endorsement, get your Instrument Rating, and

don't be shy about spending money on fuel, and that will

get you cheaper insurance.  Of course, to get that discount,

I spent probably $6-8,000 on fuel last year.   But, what good

is an RV-10 if it just sits in a hangar.  You can buy much

cheaper planes that will give you nearly identical enjoyment

if you just want to park it in a hangar.



This year, I think I'll possibly get my commercial rating,

just to see if that helps a little too.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 1/22/2008 9:05:22 AM Central Standard Time, 

 apilot2(at)gmail.com writes:

 

     The correct endorsement is "high performance" unless you are building

     the prototype RV-10RG. Complex refers to tucking wheels as well as

     controllable prop and flaps.

 

 And having a motor that's over 200+hp with a controllable pitch prop= 

 High Performance...which is why many planes such as Mooney 201, Cessna 

 Cardinals with the larger IO-360 are not High Performance 

 aircraft...many have controllable prop's but the IO-360 many be rated 

 only at 200hp thus not being over 200hp they do not comply with the 

 requirement for High Performance.

  

 Another way to get your rates a little lower is to obtain an IFR rating 

 as soon as possible beyond you Private rating...adding Commercial may 

 lower your rates even further.  More safe flying hours, plus advanced 

 rating and hull value and type aircraft generally make up the rate you 

 will receive.

  

 I don't believe that Falcon is an Insurance company...rather it is a 

 brokerage company and they then will contact Insurance companies to get 

 you quotes on your coverage...additionally they will also need to be a 

 registered in your state before they can offer insurance for your 

 policy...or something complicated like that.

  

 P

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Insurance

Oh, and some time in that process, make sure to get a HP signoff.

wouldn't getting the transition training with Alex or Mike get one this 

signoff? I would think it would be wise for most to get the training as a 

good step to that first flight.

Pascal

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Insurance

Yes, you should be able to get the HP signoff from Alex or

Mike, if you don't get it before then.  The most important

thing is the signoff, but all of your HP time, and other

"special" sorts of time you have, may also qualify you for

better insurance rates too, so if you're renting, and can

rent a HP plane, you may actually benefit from that rental

choice too.  Just don't forget to get the signoff, one way

or the other, because you'll definitely want HP endorsement

for the RV-10...unless you do something drastically different

in engine choices.  Anyone want to try out that Rotax

that got advertized a couple days ago? 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Pascal wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Oh, and some time in that process, make sure to get a HP signoff.

 

 

 wouldn't getting the transition training with Alex or Mike get one this 

 signoff? I would think it would be wise for most to get the training as 

 a good step to that first flight.

 Pascal

 ---

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Insurance

In a message dated 1/22/2008 11:27:03 AM Central Standard Time,  rv10builder(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  wouldn't    getting the transition training with Alex or Mike get one this 

signoff?    	


 

 I don't think this is automatic, you would need to inform the CFI that  you're  requesting this instruction and sign off and then perform  the tasks required to get the sign off...not very complicated but you'll  need to get instruction then the sign off.  I don't believe there is a set  hours on either HP or complex but just the sign off by the CFI.

  

 One thing additionally you may want to question from your carrier is if you  complete a formal training course on your aircraft or some other type of course  could you receive a discount to your rate...such as the FAA's Wings course  and follow up instruction with a CFI (part of your transition training) or a  recognised course such as the Cessna FITS course...Mooney other courses set up  by their associations.  Sometimes these course cost is more than justify by  the discount you'll receive.  

  

  I know this is pretty obvious but genreally, the largest portions of  your insurance cost is the hull's value you list...certainly if you're a  low time pilot with a fresh IFR to boot in an expensive high performance  aircraft; your insurance will be pretty high the first couple of years and  should decrease as you gain experience and additional ratings.

  

 I understand that it pretty typical for some Cirrus pilots to be paying up  to $5k or more for policies on the SR22, while a pilot of similar  experience in a Dakota would only pay $1.5k.  Happened to one of my  original partners in our 235...went from that to a PA 28-300 then on to the SR  22...he additionally had more experience and rates by the time be bought into  the 22 but with the accidents rates the pool is shark infested.

  

 P



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Insurance

Actually, wasn't it just a couple years ago that brand-new

Cirrus insurance was costing some people $10K, and only

recently did they get some big drop in rates?  I'm sure

that all still depends on the pilot qualifications, but

I thought the rates on 400-500K of hull were in that

10K range previously.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 1/22/2008 11:27:03 AM Central Standard Time, 

 rv10builder(at)verizon.net writes:

 

     wouldn't getting the transition training with Alex or Mike get one this

     signoff? 

 

 I don't think this is automatic, you would need to inform the CFI that 

 you're  requesting this instruction and sign off and then perform the 

 tasks required to get the sign off...not very complicated but you'll 

 need to get instruction then the sign off.  I don't believe there is a 

 set hours on either HP or complex but just the sign off by the CFI.

  

 One thing additionally you may want to question from your carrier is if 

 you complete a formal training course on your aircraft or some other 

 type of course could you receive a discount to your rate...such as the 

 FAA's Wings course and follow up instruction with a CFI (part of your 

 transition training) or a recognised course such as the Cessna FITS 

 course...Mooney other courses set up by their associations.  Sometimes 

 these course cost is more than justify by the discount you'll receive. 

  

  I know this is pretty obvious but genreally, the largest portions of 

 your insurance cost is the hull's value you list...certainly if you're a 

 low time pilot with a fresh IFR to boot in an expensive high performance 

 aircraft; your insurance will be pretty high the first couple of years 

 and should decrease as you gain experience and additional ratings.

  

 I understand that it pretty typical for some Cirrus pilots to be paying 

 up to $5k or more for policies on the SR22, while a pilot of similar 

 experience in a Dakota would only pay $1.5k.  Happened to one of my 

 original partners in our 235...went from that to a PA 28-300 then on to 

 the SR 22...he additionally had more experience and rates by the time be 

 bought into the 22 but with the accidents rates the pool is shark infested.

  

 P

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape 

 <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> 

 in the new year.

 

 *

 

 

 *

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Insurance

Just an idea to throw out.....bring on the flames.  One way of building time

would be to find someone working on their instrument rating or just doing

practice approaches and fly with them.  You must be able to act as pilot in

command for the aircraft being flown, but you can log the PIC time.  Also,

you will get the benefit of learning a lot about practice approaches, holds,

etc.....actual IFR...not so much.



Rene' Felker

N423CF

40322

801-721-6080

--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Insurance

You can't really use that to actually build time, because

you aren't PIC.  Now, if you were the sole manipulator

of the controls, while the other guy was the PIC, that

might not be totally the case, but, what good is the

instrument approach practice to that guy if you're

the one solely manipulating the controls of the plane.

And, you can't log PIC time if you're a non-certified

pilot hauling passengers who are non-instructors.

Otherwise people wouldn't bother to fly the time to

get their rating...they'd just manipulate the controls

while a buddy pilot acts as the true PIC.  I'm not

saying it's not of any benefit, but really, the only way

to honestly and legitimately build loggable time is to

go out and do the flying.  Also, read this last month's

AOPA article by that legal column guy and find out how

the NTSB/FAA takes it when the right-seat pilot is

manipulating the controls.  It got kind of spooky how

suddenly you assume the role as PIC and could end up

being "in charge" if there is any sort of incident.



What you want to add, if possible, is true, loggable PIC

time, to help with insurance rates.  But, you're 100% right

that from a standpoint of getting yourself some IFR related

education, it would be fantastic to go along and fly with

someone doing their instrument rating....it may help when

it comes time to plan your panel.  If you're going to do

that though, you may as well finish the Private Pilot, and

at least finish and pass the written for the Instrument

rating.  You don't even need to take ground school to

take and pass the written, and there's a heck of a lot

of good info there.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rene Felker wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Just an idea to throw out.....bring on the flames.  One way of building time

 would be to find someone working on their instrument rating or just doing

 practice approaches and fly with them.  You must be able to act as pilot in

 command for the aircraft being flown, but you can log the PIC time.  Also,

 you will get the benefit of learning a lot about practice approaches, holds,

 etc.....actual IFR...not so much.

 

 Rene' Felker

 N423CF

 40322

 801-721-6080

 --

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: Insurance

Anyone try the Van's programs? VanGuard or skysmith

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/insure.htm

---

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Insurance

Just for clarification......



1.  Pilot not flying, right seat guy/gal must be rated and current in the

aircraft to fly as safety pilot.



2.  Pilot not flying, assumes PIC for a portion (while pilot flying is under

the hood) of the flight.



3.  Both pilots can log time.



It is just a way to build a little time at little or no expense.  



Also, pilot not flying is a required crew member ...........



I fly a lot with other pilots and always make sure that we agree on who is

PIC and who is not.....even with my instructor.



Rene' Felker

N423CF

40322

801-721-6080



--

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: Insurance

In a message dated 1/22/2008 1:15:13 PM Central Standard Time,  rene(at)felker.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  but you    can log the PIC time. 	


 

 Rene,

  

 Pretty sure you can log the time but not as PIC unless you're a CFI/I  giving instruction to a student...

  

 P



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Insurance

In a message dated 1/22/2008 2:17:46 PM Central Standard Time,  rene(at)felker.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just for    clarification......



1.  Pilot not flying, right seat guy/gal must    be rated and current in the

aircraft to fly as safety    pilot.



2.  Pilot not flying, assumes PIC for a portion (while    pilot flying is under

the hood) of the flight.



3.  Both pilots    can log time.



It is just a way to build a little time at little or no    expense.  



Also, pilot not flying is a required crew member    ...........



I fly a lot with other pilots and always make sure that we    agree on who is

PIC and who is not.....even with my  instructor.

	


 

 Rene',

  

 You may want to take a look at FAR 61.51...PIC is the pilot flying the  plane (the sole manipulator of the controls) while the other person is a  "safety pilot" and not PIC unless 61.51(e) (3)..."an authorized insturctor may  log as PIC time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor"..."PIC  time for a pilot is only when you are the sole manipulator of the controls for  which the pilot is rated or has priveleges"...if you act as Safety Pilot and you  are not manipulator of the controls you're not PIC...the pilot flying under the  "hood" is PIC, you can log time but not PIC time, unless you are the  CFI/I.  

  

 Your point on required crew member is only true if the aircraft you are  operating is covered by 61.55 and this covers how the aircraft is certificated  not the operation you're performing..I really don't think to many part 91  aircraft have a second in command (required crew member per operation  certificate) requirement...

  

 I don't think it says anywhere that the person acting as safety pilot needs  to be current or have a current medical for that matter either just that they  have to be rated for category and class.

  

 If you and your mates are logging PIC time incorrectly, well that's your  matter.  But you may want to re-read the regulation and discuss it with a  member from the FSDO or a master CFI/I...IMHO

  

 Patrick



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Insurance

In a message dated 1/22/2008 3:41:14 PM Central Standard Time,  GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  It is    just a way to build a little time at little or no expense.     



	


 

  

 I'm sure you take the "safety pilot" as a serious position and keep a  healthy scan going...if you read through the NTSB accident reports...note how  many accidents occur to CFI's and pilots out practicing IFR conditions.   It's more than one thinks...

  

 P



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

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